Though no stranger to rationality, Mandelker makes clear that he prefers an intuitive and spiritual approach to life's mysteries over logic and science. He also emphasizes that his preferred "map" of reality is contained in the channeled work known as "The Ra Material" or "The Law of One" by Don Elkins et al.
CNI News editor Michael Lindemann interviewed Scott Mandelker during a conference in Laramie, Wyoming on June 28, 1997. The following text is edited from that interview.]
Michael Lindemann: In your book, you talk about ET souls. What do you mean by that?
Scott Mandelker: I'm talking about people who are very ordinary in body and appearance, yet they have had a series of paranormal experiences as well as a period of self-reflection over many years and have come to the conclusion that their true home or civilization is not associated with earth and is generally part of another solar system, if not another galaxy. These are people who feel that they are higher-dimensional souls.... These people have come to realize that when they die, at the end of this lifetime in particular, many of them will go back home -- meaning to this higher dimension.... The ET souls, also called wanderers, ET walk-ins, star people or star-born, are very socially sensitive and very much feel that they are strangers in a strange land. Because they are coming from an older civilization, they have a certain spiritual development of love or wisdom or sense of oneness. This of course can be attained by any soul in any density if it does spiritual work.... Those [earth] souls that do the spiritual work here and evolve further will have the same higher spiritual qualities and desire to be of service, but they won't have the sense of alienation; they won't necessarily have any ET contacts, physical or paranormal; and they won't have this sense that something is terribly wrong, this bewilderment why this world is this way. These qualities, which are central to ET souls, they won't have.
ML: You speak of the ET souls coming from a civilization that is evolved to a different energy level or dimensional level, but is it possible that any of them come from planetary spheres like our own?
SM: All of the visible light spectrum universe that we can see -- which appears to be billions of galaxies of billions of stars -- all of that is actually considered third density. That entire infinite physical light universe is simply one spectrum or one frequency of a sort of octave of frequencies that are called the seven densities or seven dimensions. Now, very few groups at our level of spiritual development, which correlates to the material visible universe, have the technology for interstellar or intergalactic travel. It's a very rare thing to be developed at this level of consciousness. So, almost all of the ETs are from higher frequencies or higher densities, which are, technically speaking, called not-veiled... You could say that all the ETs are ultraterrestrials, if you want to use that term. Almost none of them are from the physical dimension.
ML: However, they seem able to manifest in this dimension, even to appear solid in this dimension. Is that a manifestation of their own technology, or is that a prerogative of their level of consciousness?
SM: It can be both. There are certain technologies that allow them to change the vibrational frequency of their bodies as an energy system, to therefore appear in the physical. They can therefore appear in a holographic way physical to the five senses, but they are actually not a chemical body. It's a physical body, but not a chemical-based body. It's a thought-form created body, generated either by a spiritual practice or by technological energetic transformation of the system.
ML: Given what you know, does it make sense to you that a flying saucer could crash at Roswell -- that we could pick up the wreckage and play with it?
SM: I know that the higher extraterrestrials don't need craft at all. They don't use craft. When they appear, if they ever appear -- the positive beings -- in a physical craft, it's a thoughtform or a holographic image, simply for those who have eyes to see, as a spiritual awakening. The lower density groups that are just a few thousands years older than earth -- we talk about the Pleiadians, Zeta Reticuli, Andromedans, some of the younger Sirians (these are sort of the mythical names of the groups that are just a little older) -- they generally will use physical craft. It's feasible, I guess, that if it were a physical craft, our radar could have interrupted their navigational system.... It's [also] certainly conceivable that Roswell was actually a made-in-America craft, ...that this is government technology, and they crashed in Roswell and covered it up.
ML: In your speech at this conference in Laramie, you said that there are difficulties involved in going out, as CSETI does, to "call in" ET craft. What difficulties are you referring to?
SM: We're talking about the law of free will, the metaphysical laws that govern positive and negative contact. There are positive extraterrestrials who freely respect our free will. They only respond in a benevolent way to our call if it's made with full sincerity. They are not here for anyone's entertainment or anyone's amusement or curiosity. They are not here to set up a small elite group who feels that they are the self-appointed ambassadors to the universe. This is not the way they work, because they are not interested in ego trips or power dynamics. They're interested in individual evolvement or consciousness development of [each] person, the ageless wisdom principles: love, wisdom, service, balance, unity, self-understanding, all of these things. They are not interested in setting up governmental agencies. So let's just look from their angle. If some [human] group is seeking their [ET] contact, they will know immediately -- because they're at the level of consciousness that they can be sensitive to the longing of a human being for contact or for some assistance. They will also be able to read the degree of sincerity in that. Most of the people, I feel, who are going out trying to make contact have [mixed] intentions. Some of it is sincere desire for assistance and information or evolutionary boost, and some of it is egotistical, curiosity-seeking, seeking proof or validation, or seeking to become the ambassador to bring this great thing to the world. This would be a set of mixed intentions. To the extent that they are positive, a positive group would be able to give them something that could not be used to hurt themselves. For a positive being to bring an absolute proof of their identity -- here's a piece of metal, here's a gold bar from our planet that everyone else would see as irrefutable proof -- is not something that they would want to do.... It's very unlikely, in my thinking, that a positive group would actually do a landing.... Now, to the extent that the group is more actively self-serving -- in terms of "I want to be a special person through this contact" -- they can certainly vector in a negative group. The negative group can say to them, "We're here to help you. You are the chosen ambassadors." The notion of the chosen people is elitist, pure service-to-self negativity. And yet it can be done -- like some people who've had abduction -- "We've chosen you for this experience to bring the message to the world that you're destroying your environment." Meanwhile, we're going to rape you and traumatize you. This is called mind-control deception: how to make the slave feel important. So likewise, the CSETI people could well, depending on the purity of their intentions, get a mixed response or a pure response. If they're leaning to self-service in some way, egotistical or self-aggrandizing, they can certainly bring in a negative contact with the right mix of energies. At that point they could either become enslaved, or get taken for a joy ride from which they never come back to earth. And I have a concern that in the future there will be some people following either confused channels or people who claim to have made some kind of contact and lead people basically into enslavement on another planet. It sounds bizarre, but this type of thing could happen if it's the free-will choice of the people to go with the ETs, even though they are being deluded, even though they are not being given full information. Their free will has to be preserved, and they're not going to be stopped by higher self or some ET guide or angel -- they will end up going. This will be more serious in the next five or ten years, if there are earth changes and then isolated communities where some people are getting ET contact, because if they are not sensitive and vigilant and don't have meticulous purity, they will draw in negative contacts for sure.
ML: You've been using the words Free Will a lot. You've also made reference to abduction as if you regard it as a genuine phenomenon. When people have these abduction experiences, some interpreters say that they invited it or it was their choice. Do you agree? Or are these abductions actually acts of violation. Are those who perpetrate these events bound by a free will protocol as well, or do they violate that?
SM: There is only one law of free will. A negative group that abducts a person is actually not breaking the free will of that person. There are many individuals -- especially wanderers, ET souls, and people of significant spiritual and mental development (spiritual in the sense of self-empowerment and self-healing or self-integration) -- who are somewhat non-vulnerable. They are not prey to negative attack or negative abduction.... The people who are chosen for the type of abductions that deserve the term abduction -- violation, trauma, terror, confusion -- are basically of some damaged mental or spiritual condition, either through childhood trauma, self-hatred, drug abuse, suicidal, rejection of the inner self, confusion about what love is, confusion about what they deserve -- some form of damage, emotional or spiritual, some form of weakness, mental or spiritual, which means non-empowerment. Some people say that these people make an agreement at a soul level to have this experience. I know a healer in San Francisco who helps people through the imagery of breaking agreements with the alien negative groups, which does end or terminate the abduction scenario. I don't know if this is literally true, but it is symbolically true. At one level, for sure, the person does allow this thing to happen. It's not that they want it to happen; it's not that it's done to help them. These people at a certain level have a vacuum or a wounding, an etheric tear, an energy body tear or rent. It's like a possession, a short-term possession. A person who becomes possessed is basically a person who has the sort of energy field disturbance or opening or tear through which a negative obsessing entity or fragment can enter.... So, it's not that the negative groups actually infringe on the free will. They push the free will to the limit.... And it can be ended, but only through inner spiritual development.
ML: I have noted that many abductees today are saying that they have been chosen to be a part of some special program, that they're being given special instruction, that we are in this very important time in history when many terrible traumas will occur, and they are being warned about this, instructed how to respond to this and how to be special or play a special role in the time of turmoil. This is becoming a strong theme in the abduction literature. It came up as a strong theme in Budd Hopkins' latest book [Witnessed, 1996]. But Hopkins said he thinks all this is just one more level of deception on the part of the aliens. What's your view?
SM: To the extent that the person is not in an equal power arrangement with the extraterrestrial group, to the extent that this person is being taken against their will or in an involuntary manner, to the extent that they are not being treated with respect and love, to the extent that there is any type of violation or disorientation or confusion or marks on the body or fear, then it's clearly a negative contact, because positive groups don't act that way. To say that the world is in distress, to say that there is an ecological crisis or that we're in a special time -- this is old hat. Everybody knows this. If it has the tell-tale signs of a true abduction, then this is disinformation. It really is placation. They're placating the laboratory subjects or slaves to make them feel special so that they'll be more cooperative in giving the aliens what they need. Again, there are no positive beings who will foist ideas of elitism or being chosen.... Even ET souls on earth, when they become mature, feel that they are not so special, and this is no big deal. They don't feel like they've been chosen. When I look at the spectrum of self-awareness among the group of wanderers and ET souls, at the level of moderate immaturity is grandiosity. These are the people who feel like they've got to tell everybody that they're an ET or wanderer or walk-in, and they've been chosen for this great mission.... Any time there's an ET offering these ideas of "You're special, you've been chosen," it's most likely a negative tranquilizing, to make the person feel good, to be more cooperative and submissive in terms of how they're being used.
ML: Turning now to the group of ET souls that you speak of, the wanderers, you said in your lecture that there's a substantial number -- you estimate 85 million -- and you also said repeatedly that we are in a special time when there will be traumatic occurrences, and that the ET souls do in some sense have a responsibility to that. But many of these people, as you say, seem to be confused about their own identity; they have a hard time coming to grips with all that. How do you see this group coming into its own in the time of crisis ahead?
SM: It's not fully necessary for a wanderer to remember its extraterrestrial or higher-dimensional origin for it to do a significant amount of service on earth. I'm sure a lot of people in the ecological green movement, or some of the people who are trying to fight for freedom around the world, are ET souls, and they will probably almost never come to realize that. Yet they are doing some degree of service in helping the planet. The primary modes of service that the wanderers are doing are sort of radiatory -- simply being, simply walking on the planet with some degree of alignment with themselves, even if they've forgotten... They will be radiating a sort of harmonious energy, which is love and kindness, basically, and that assists the planet, actually mitigates earth changes. Earth changes are created, ultimately, by humanity, because of the disharmonious or chaotic, insane, self-destructive vibrations or energies of human thought and behavior for the last 25,000 or 50,000 years, being stored as random heat in the body of the planet, needing to be released, the energy grid or electromagnetic body of the planet needing to reorient itself during this time of transition. This creates the earth changes. To the extent that the wanderers vibrate or radiate harmonious energy -- which just means kindness -- this helps mitigate this catastrophic thing. The wanderers that are doing that now will increase in doing that. Those people who don't necessarily remember that they are wanderers in the next fifteen years will, to the extent that they listen to themselves more and have more self-acceptance and alignment with their own intuition, be able to serve more in that ordinary way too. To the extent that the UFO phenomenon becomes more public, many of the sleeping wanderers will come to realize, "Hey, that has something to do with me." So, many of the wanderers will be triggered to greater awakening of their own extraterrestrial status or origin, and therefore be propelled a little more consciously to recognize their purpose. Understanding you're ET is nice, but what's implicit in that is understanding your purpose. It's not a grandiose mission. It's as humble as being a nice person, actually. But as the ET phenomenon becomes more public -- and ironically, a lot of this "ET in your face" like Phoenix [Arizona, March 1997], will be done by negative groups -- the wanderers will see it, and will move closer to remembering why they came here. But the wanderers are not a social, political force.... [They] are very humble, almost to the point of self-efacement, and don't set up a network. They work alone, because their desire is to fit in, be ordinary, and yet keep their heart, which means to be able to help the world, help people, in any way they can. They are not organizing into a political force at all, and they won't -- and yet they will be pivotal, I think, in the next ten years, in terms of the light that's liberated by their gradual awakening, which will be triggered by greater UFO activity, as well as their ability to bridge to benevolent extraterrestrials in the non-physical, because that's their family.
ML: Many people who think seriously about the future believe we're headed for a period of global turmoil. But among futurists, there is a wide variance in outlook over whether or not we will hit a so-called discontinuity, a point past which all predictions fail and we can't know what happens next. Most rational planners would reject out of hand the coming of a global discontinuity. On the other hand, esoteric sources as varied as the Mayan Calendar, Edgar Cayce, the Book of Revelations or Terence McKenna's Time Wave Zero all predict a total discontinuity, and soon. Please comment from your own perspective. What do you see happening ahead?
SM: Although I do not care for 95% or more of channeled material on the market, it is true that the vast majority of those sources say that there is a discontinuous event coming -- they peg it to the date 2010 or 2012 -- and I would agree. The theory is that earth is a schoolhouse, like all planets; that there is a cycle of 75,000 years, three times the precession of the equinox, at the end of which this activation of matter, this density of existence, the physical matter world as we know it sort of transmutes or is activated into a higher energetic condition, and this period of learning -- this 75,000 years -- is over. This cycle will end. Therefore, we're not just talking about a change [to] globalism and international cooperation, we're talking about a sort of cosmic clock, a cosmically determined cycle of the activation of the particle of light that forms the matter of this physical dimension or universe, this world, that this photon of light or this basic vibratory rate will make a quantum leap to a higher energetic vibratory condition.... I believe that the earth changes will be pushed up as far as possible to the wall of that event -- and I think that you can't get there from here. Cannot. You can get there in terms of making the grade, simply by development of love and compassion. Now we're talking the metaphysics of the densities, saying the earth is moving into the level associated with the heart center: love, compassion, understanding, self-acceptance, acceptance of others. This is what Heaven's Gate was talking about, the level above human -- saying that this planet is moving to a level above human, the next evolutionary kingdom. Jesus said the kingdom of heaven.... I would be very, very surprised if we don't have a major discontinuous event fifteen years from now.
ML: For the person who is just going to work, paying the bills, driving down the highway, what happens? Does the world dissolve out from under their feet? What happens in that kind of discontinuity, as you understand it?
SM: They die. I think probably in that kind of discontinuity, everybody will end up dying. It's not that they will go to hell or be held back from their evolution at all. The point is that this is a schoolhouse, learning the lessons of love and compassion for self and other. For those who haven't learned that lesson by the graduation time, as this elementary school upgrades to a junior high school, they will simply be sent to another elementary school to continue the learning. There are many, many third density planets like earth in this visible light spectrum universe that are habitable, where there are civilizations for these souls to go, and they will simply go there to continue in another cycle to develop sufficient energy in the heart. What's interesting is that it's said that on earth we will then transit into a fourth dimensional subtle matter non-physical dimension of love and kindness with a unified civilization and many, many ET transfers from other planets, many souls from other worlds. This is the meaning of the return of the Christ, actually -- not Jesus himself, but other beings from the same density of love and compassion, fourth density where we're going, will come to join the evolution on earth, because the harvest of human native third density souls is predicted to be so low. So few of the six billion are sufficiently polarized positive service-to-others that there will be an inadequate population of earth souls to maintain the balance on the next planet earth as it develops, and it will be supplemented from other groups. This is the return of the kingdom of heaven to come, the kingdom of souls, heaven on earth.... What's important [now], really, is the pure desire to live in the truth, to develop the potentials of the total self, to truly throw one's will on the side of self-unfoldment and development of consciousness. That is the guarantee of peace, happiness and achievement.
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