From - Wed Oct 16 14:51:11 1996 X-POP3-Rcpt: ez073888@peseta Received: from guilder.ucdavis.edu by peseta.ucdavis.edu (8.8.0/UCD3.7.1) id OAA26082; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from po.cwru.edu by guilder.ucdavis.edu (8.8.0/UCD3.7.1) id OAA22336; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu (aa440@caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu [129.22.8.211]) by po.cwru.edu with ESMTP (8.7.6+cwru/CWRU-3.0) id RAA26664; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:14:46 -0400 (EDT) (from aa440@caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu for ) Received: (aa440@localhost) by caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu (8.7.6+cwru/CWRU-2.3-bsdi) id RAA08278; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:04:39 -0400 (EDT) (from aa440) Message-Id: <199610162104.RAA08278@caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:04:39 -0400 (EDT) From: aa440@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dale Wedge) To: orphillips@ucdavis.edu Subject: Re: Will NSA Control Domestic Communications? Reply-To: aa440@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dale Wedge) Content-Type: text X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Content-Length: 28656 In a previous article, xx044 (UFOlogy SIG) says: > > >DATE OF UPLOAD: November 17, 1989 >ORIGIN OF UPLOAD: Omni Magazine >CONTRIBUTED BY: Donald Goldberg >======================================================== >(C) Copyright 1989 ParaNet Information Service >All Rights Reserved unless copyrighted by Author. >THIS FILE WAS PREPARED BY PARANET ALPHA -- PARANET INFORMATION >SERVICE >PARANET INFORMATION SERVICE BBS >1-303-232-6115 9600 BAUD >1-303-232-8303 VOICE >DENVER, COLORADO >NOTE: THESE FILES ARE NOT FOR REDISTRIBUTION OUTSIDE >OF THE PARANET INFORMATION SERVICE NETWORK >======================================================== > Although this article does not deal directly with UFOs, >ParaNet felt it important as an offering to our readers who >depend so much upon communications as a way to stay informed. >This article raises some interesting implications for the future >of communications. > > >THE NATIONAL GUARDS >(C) 1987 OMNI MAGAZINE MAY 1987 >(Reprinted with permission and license to ParaNet Information >Service and its affiliates.) > >By Donald Goldberg > > The mountains bend as the fjord and the sea beyond stretch >out before the viewer's eyes. First over the water, then a sharp >left turn, then a bank to the right between the peaks, and the >secret naval base unfolds upon the screen. > The scene is of a Soviet military installation on the Kola >Peninsula in the icy Barents Sea, a place usually off-limits to >the gaze of the Western world. It was captured by a small French >satellite called SPOT Image, orbiting at an altitude of 517 miles >above the hidden Russian outpost. On each of several passes -- >made over a two-week period last fall -- the satellite's high- >resolution lens took its pictures at a different angle; the >images were then blended into a three-dimensional, computer- >generated video. Buildings, docks, vessels, and details of the >Artic landscape are all clearly visible. > Half a world away and thousands of feet under the sea, >sparkling-clear images are being made of the ocean floor. Using >the latest bathymetric technology and state-of-the-art systems >known as Seam Beam and Hydrochart, researchers are for the first >time assembling detailed underwater maps of the continental >shelves and the depths of the world's oceans. These scenes of >the sea are as sophisticated as the photographs taken from the >satellite. > From the three-dimensional images taken far above the earth >to the charts of the bottom of the oceans, these photographic >systems have three things in common: They both rely on the >latest technology to create accurate pictures never dreamed of >even 25 years ago; they are being made widely available by >commerical, nongovernmental enterprises; and the Pentagon is >trying desperately to keep them from the general public. > In 1985 the Navy classified the underwater charts, making >them available only to approved researchers whose needs are >evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Under a 1984 law the military >has been given a say in what cameras can be licensed to be used >on American satellites; and officials have already announced they >plan to limit the quality and resolution of photos made >available. The National Security Agency (NSA) -- the secret arm > >of the Pentagon in charge of gathering >electronic intelligence as >well as protecting sensitive U.S. communications -- has defeated >a move to keep it away from civilian and commercial computers and >databases. > That attitude has outraged those concerned with the >military's increasing efforts to keep information not only from >the public but from industry experts, scientists, and even other >government officials as well. "That's like classifying a road >map for fear of invasion," says Paul Wolff, assistant >administrator for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric >Administration, of the attempted restrictions. > These attempts to keep unclassified data out of the hands of >scientists, researchers, the news media, and the public at large >are a part of an alarming trend that has seen the military take >an ever-increasing role in controlling the flow of information >and communications through American society, a role traditionally >-- and almost exclusively -- left to civilians. Under the >approving gaze of the Reagan administration, Department of >Defense (DoD) officials have quietly implemented a number of >policies, decisions, and orders that give the military >unprecedented control over both the content and public use of >data and communications. For example: > >**The Pentagon has created a new category of "sensitive" but >unclassified information that allows it to keep from public >access huge quantities of data that were once widely accessible. >**Defense Department officials have attempted to rewrite key laws >that spell out when the president can and cannot appropriate >private communications facilities. >**The Pentagon has installed a system that enables it to seize >control of the nation's entire communications network -- the >phone system, data transmissions, and satellite transmissions of >all kinds -- in the event of what it deems a "national >emergency." As yet there is no single, universally agreed-upon >definition of what constitutes such a state. Usually such an >emergency is restricted to times of natural disaster, war, or >when national security is specifically threatened. Now the >military has attempted to redefine emergency. > The point man in the Pentagon's onslaught on communications >is Assistant Defense Secretary Donald C. Latham, a former NSA >deputy chief. Latham now heads up an interagency committee in >charge of writing and implementing many of the policies that have >put the military in charge of the flow of civilian information >and communication. He is also the architect of National Security >Decision Directive 145 (NSDD 145), signed by Defense Secretary >Caspar Weinberger in 1984, which sets out the national policy on >telecommunications and computer-systems security. > First NSDD 145 set up a steering group of top-level >administration officials. Their job is to recommend ways to >protect information that is unclassified but has been designated >sensitive. Such information is held not only by government >agencies but by private companies as well. And last October the >steering group issued a memorandum that defined sensitive >information and gave federal agencies broad new powers to keep it >from the public. > According to Latham, this new category includes such data as >all medical records on government databases -- from the files of >the National Cancer Institute to information on every veteran who >has ever applied for medical aid from the Veterans Administration >-- and all the information on corporate and personal taxpayers in >the Internal Revenue Service's computers. Even agricultural >statistics, he argues, can be used by a foreign power against the >United States. > In his oversize yet Spartan Pentagon office, Latham cuts >anything but an intimidating figure. Articulate and friendly, he > >could pass for a network anchorman or a >television game show >host. When asked how the government's new definition of >sensitive information will be used, he defends the necessity for >it and tries to put to rest concerns about a new restrictiveness. > "The debate that somehow the DoD and NSA are going to >monitor or get into private databases isn't the case at all," >Latham insists. "The definition is just a guideline, just an >advisory. It does not give the DoD the right to go into private >records." > Yet the Defense Department invoked the NSDD 145 guidelines >when it told the information industry it intends to restrict the >sale of data that are now unclassified and publicly available >from privately owned computer systems. The excuse if offered was >that these data often include technical information that might be >valuable to a foreign adversary like the Soviet Union. > Mead Data Central -- which runs some of the nation's largest >computer databases, such as Lexis and Nexis, and has nearly >200,000 users -- says it has already been approached by a team of >agents from the Air Force and officials from the CIA and the FBI >who asked for the names of subscribers and inquired what Mead >officials might do if information restrictions were imposed. In >response to government pressure, Mead Data Central in effect >censured itself. It purged all unclassified government-supplied >technical data from its system and completely dropped the >National Technical Information System from its database rather >than risk a confrontation. > Representative Jack Brooks, a Texas Democrat who chairs the >House Government Operations Committee, is an outspoken critic of >the NSA's role in restricting civilian information. He notes >that in 1985 the NSA -- under the authority granted by NSDD 145 >-- investigated a computer program that was widely used in both >local and federal elections in 1984. The computer system was >used to count more than one third of all votes cast in the United >States. While probing the system's vulnerability to outside >manipulation, the NSA obtained a detailed knowledge of that >computer program. "In my view," Brooks says, "this is an >unprecedented and ill-advised expansion of the military's >influence in our society." > There are other NSA critics. "The computer systems used by >counties to collect and process votes have nothing to do with >national security, and I'm really concerned about the NSA's >involvement," says Democratic congressman Dan Glickman of Kansas, >chairman of the House science and technology subcommittee >concerned with computer security. > Also, under NSDD 145 the Pentagon has issued an order, >virtually unknown to all but a few industry executives, that >affects commercial communications satellites. The policy was >made official by Defense Secretary Weinberger in June of 1985 and >requires that all commercial satellite operators that carry such >unclassified government data traffic as routine Pentagon supply >information and payroll data (and that compete for lucrative >government contracts) install costly protective systems on all >satellites launched after 1990. The policy does not directly >affect the data over satellite channels, but it does make the NSA >privy to vital information about the essential signals needed to >operate a satellite. With this information it could take control >of any satellite it chooses. > Latham insists this, too, is a voluntary policy and that >only companies that wish to install protection will have their >systems evaluated by the NSA. He also says industry officials >are wholly behind the move, and argues that the protective >systems are necessary. With just a few thousand dollars' worth >of equipment, a disgruntled employee could interfere with a >satellite's control signals and disable or even wipe out a >hundred-million-dollar satellite carrying government information. > > At best, his comments are misleading. >First, the policy is >not voluntary. The NSA can cut off lucrative government >contracts to companies that do not comply with the plan. The >Pentagon alone spent more than a billion dollars leasing >commercial satellite channels last year; that's a powerful >incentive for business to cooperate. > Second, the industry's support is anything but total. >According to the minutes of one closed-door meeting between NSA >officials -- along with representatives of other federal agencies >-- and executives from AT&T, Comsat, GTE Sprint, and MCI, the >executives neither supported the move nor believed it was >necessary. The NSA defended the policy by arguing that a >satellite could be held for ransom if the command and control >links weren't protected. But experts at the meeting were >skeptical. > "Why is the threat limited to accessing the satellite rather >than destroying it with lasers or high-powered signals?" one >industry executive wanted to know. > Most of the officials present objected to the high cost of >protecting the satellites. According to a 1983 study made at the >request of the Pentagon, the protection demanded by the NSA could >add as much as $3 million to the price of a satellite and $1 >million more to annual operating costs. Costs like these, they >argue, could cripple a company competing against less expensive >communications networks. > Americans get much of their information through forms of >electronic communications, from the telephone, television and >radio, and information printed in many newspapers. Banks send >important financial data, businesses their spreadsheets, and >stockbrokers their investment portfolios, all over the same >channels, from satellite signals to computer hookups carried on >long distance telephone lines. To make sure that the federal >government helped to promote and protect the efficient use of >this advancing technology, Congress passed the massive >Communications Act of of 1934. It outlined the role and laws of >the communications structure in the United States. > The powers of the president are set out in Section 606 of >that law; basically it states that he has the authority to take >control of any communications facilities that he believes >"essential to the national defense." In the language of the >trade this is known as a 606 emergency. > There have been a number of attempts in recent years by >Defense Department officials to redefine what qualifies as a 606 >emergency and make it easier for the military to take over >national communications. > In 1981 the Senate considered amendments to the 1934 act >that would allow the president, on Defense Department >recommendation, to require any communications company to provide >services, facilities, or equipment "to promote the national >defense and security or the emergency preparedness of the >nation," even in peacetime and without a declared state of >emergency. The general language had been drafted by Defense >Department officials. (The bill failed to pass the House for >unrelated reasons.) > "I think it is quite clear that they have snuck in there >some powers that are dangerous for us as a company and for the >public at large," said MCI vice president Kenneth Cox before the >Senate vote. > Since President Reagan took office, the Pentagon has stepped >up its efforts to rewrite the definition of national emergency >and give the military expanded powers in the United States. "The >declaration of 'emergency' has always been vague," says one >former administration official who left the government in 1982 >after ten years in top policy posts. "Different presidents have >invoked it differently. This administration would declare a > >convenient 'emergency.'" In other words, >what is a nuisance to >one administration might qualify as a burgeoning crisis to >another. For example, the Reagan administration might decide >that a series of protests on or near military bases constituted a >national emergency. > Should the Pentagon ever be given the green light, its base >for taking over the nation's communications system would be a >nondescript yellow brick building within the maze of high rises, >government buildings, and apartment complexes that make up the >Washington suburb of Arlington, Virginia. Headquartered in a >dusty and aging structure surrounded by a barbed-wire fence is an >obscure branch of the military known as the Defense >Communications Agency (DCA). It does not have the spit and >polish of the National Security Agency or the dozens of other >government facilities that make up the nation's capital. But its >lack of shine belies its critical mission: to make sure all of >America's far-flung military units can communicate with one >another. It is in certain ways the nerve center of our nation's >defense system. > On the second floor of the DCA's four-story headquarters is >a new addition called the National Coordinating Center (NCC). >Operated by the Pentagon, it is virtually unknown outside of a >handful of industry and government officials. The NCC is staffed >around the clock by representatives of a dozen of the nation's >largest commercial communications companies -- the so-called >"common carriers" -- including AT&T, MCI, GTE, Comsat, and ITT. >Also on hand are officials from the State Department, the CIA, >the Federal Aviation Administration, and a number of other >federal agencies. During a 606 emergency the Pentagon can order >the companies that make up the National Coordinating Center to >turn over their satellite, fiberoptic, and land-line facilities >to the government. > On a long corridor in the front of the building is a series >of offices, each outfitted with a private phone, a telex machine, >and a combination safe. It's known as "logo row" because each >office is occupied by an employee from one of the companies that >staff the NCC and because their corporate logos hand on the wall >outside. Each employee is on permanent standby, ready to >activate his company's system should the Pentagon require it. > The National Coordinating Center's mission is as grand as >its title is obscure: to make available to the Defense >Department all the facilities of the civilian communications >network in this country -- the phone lines, the long-distance >satellite hookups, the data transmission lines -- in times of >national emergency. If war breaks out and communications to a >key military base are cut, the Pentagon wants to make sure that >an alternate link can be set up as fast as possible. Company >employees assigned to the center are on call 24 hours a day; they >wear beepers outside the office, and when on vacation they must >be replaced by qualified colleagues. > The center formally opened on New Year's Day, 1984, the same >day Ma Bell's monopoly over the telephone network of the entire >United States was finally broken. The timing was no coincidence. >Pentagon officials had argued for years along with AT&T against >the divestiture of Ma Bell, on grounds of national security. >Defense Secretary Weinberger personally urged the attorney >general to block the lawsuit that resulted in the breakup, as had >his predecessor, Harold Brown. The reason was that rather than >construct its own communications network, the Pentagon had come >to rely extensively on the phone company. After the breakup the >dependence continued. The Pentagon still used commercial >companies to carry more than 90 percent of its communications >within the continental United States. > The 1984 divestiture put an end to AT&T's monopoly over the >nation's telephone service and increased the Pentagon's obsession > >with having its own nerve center. Now the >brass had to contend >with several competing companies to acquire phone lines, and >communications was more than a matter of running a line from one >telephone to another. Satellites, microwave towers, fiberoptics, >and other technological breakthroughs never dreamed of by >Alexander Graham Bell were in extensive use, and not just for >phone conversations. Digital data streams for computers flowed >on the same networks. > These facts were not lost on the Defense Department or the >White House. According to documents obtained by Omni, beginning >on December 14, 1982, a number of secret meetings were held >between high-level administration officials and executives of the >commercial communications companies whose employees would later >staff the National Coordinating Center. The meetings, which >continued over the next three years, were held at the White >House, the State Department, the Strategic Air Command (SAC) >headquarters at Offutt Air Force Base in Nebraska, and at the >North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) in Colorado >Springs. > The industry officials attending constituted the National >Security Telecommunications Advisory Committee -- called NSTAC >(pronounced N-stack) -- set up by President Reagan to address >those same problems that worried the Pentagon. It was at these >secret meetings, according to the minutes, that the idea of a >communications watch center for national emergencies -- the NCC >-- was born. Along with it came a whole set of plans that would >allow the military to take over commercial communications >"assets" -- everything from ground stations and satellite dishes >to fiberoptic cables -- across the country. > At a 1983 Federal Communications Commission meeting, a >ranking Defense Department official offered the following >explanation for the founding of the National Coordinating Center: >"We are looking at trying to make communications endurable for a >protracted conflict." The phrase protracted conflict is a >military euphemism for nuclear war. > But could the NCC survive even the first volley in such a >conflict? > Not likely. It's located within a mile of the Pentagon, >itself an obvious early target of a Soviet nuclear barrage (or a >conventional strike, for that matter). And the Kremlin >undoubtedly knows its location and importance, and presumably has >included it on its priority target list. In sum, according to >one Pentagon official, "The NCC itself is not viewed as a >survivable facility." > Furthermore, the NCC's "Implementation Plan," obtained by >Omni, lists four phases of emergencies and how the center should >respond to each. The first, Phase 0, is Peacetime, for which >there would be little to do outside of a handful of routine tasks >and exercises. Phase 1 is Pre Attack, in which alternate NCC >sites are alerted. Phase 2 is Post Attack, in which other NCC >locations are instructed to take over the center's functions. >Phase 3 is known as Last Ditch, and in this phase whatever >facility survives becomes the de facto NCC. > So far there is no alternate National Coordinating Center to >which NCC officials could retreat to survive an attack. >According to NCC deputy director William Belford, no physical >sites have yet been chosen for a substitute NCC, and even whether >the NCC itself will survive a nuclear attack is still under >study. > Of what use is a communications center that is not expected >to outlast even the first shots of a war and has no backup? > The answer appears to be that because of the Pentagon's >concerns about the AT&T divestiture and the disruptive effects it >might have on national security, the NCC was to serve as the >military's peacetime communications center. > > The center is a powerful and >unprecedented tool to assume >control over the nation's vast communications and information >network. For years the Pentagon has been studying how to take >over the common carriers' facilities. That research was prepared >by NSTAC at the DoD's request and is contained in a series of >internal Pentagon documents obtained by Omni. Collectively this >series is known as the Satellite Survivability Report. Completed >in 1984, it is the only detailed analysis to date of the >vulnerabilities of the commercial satellite network. It was >begun as a way of examining how to protect the network of >communications facilities from attack and how to keep it intact >for the DoD. > A major part of the report also contains an analysis of how >to make commercial satellites "interoperable" with Defense >Department systems. While the report notes that current >technical differences such as varying frequencies make it >difficult for the Pentagon to use commercial satellites, it >recommends ways to resolve those problems. Much of the report is >a veritable blueprint for the government on how to take over >satellites in orbit above the United States. This information, >plus NSDD 145's demand that satellite operators tell the NSA how >their satellites are controlled, guarantees the military ample >knowledge about operating commercial satellites. > The Pentagon now has an unprecedented access to the civilian >communications network: commercial databases, computer networks, >electronic links, telephone lines. All it needs is the legal >authority to use them. Then it could totally dominate the flow >of all information in the United States. As one high-ranking >White House communications official put it: "Whoever controls >communications, controls the country." His remark was made after >our State Department could not communicate directly with our >embassy in Manila during the anti-Marcos revolution last year. >To get through, the State Department had to relay all its >messages through the Philippine government. > Government officials have offered all kinds of scenarios to >justify the National Coordinating Center, the Satellite >Survivability Report, new domains of authority for the Pentagon >and the NSA, and the creation of top-level government steering >groups to think of even more policies for the military. Most can >be reduced to the rationale that inspired NSDD 145: that our >enemies (presumably the Soviets) have to be prevented from >getting too much information from unclassified sources. And the >only way to do that is to step in and take control of those >sources. > Remarkably, the communications industry as a whole has not >been concerned about the overall scope of the Pentagon's threat >to its freedom of operation. Most protests have been to >individual government actions. For example, a media coalition >that includes the Radio-Television Society of Newspaper Editors, >and the Turner Broadcasting System has been lobbying that before >the government can restrict the use of satellites, it must >demonstrate why such restrictions protect against a "threat to >distinct and compelling national security and foreign policy >interests." But the whole policy of restrictiveness has not been >examined. That may change sometime this year, when the Office of >Technology Assessment issues a report on how the Pentagon's >policy will affect communications in the United States. In the >meantime the military keeps trying to encroach on national >communications. > While it may seem unlikely that the Pentagon will ever get >total control of our information and communications systems, the >truth is that it can happen all too easily. The official >mechanisms are already in place; and few barriers remain to >guarantee that what we hear, see, and read will come to us >courtesy of our being members of a free and open society and not >courtesy of the Pentagon. > >================================================================= >-- > > > > > >-- > > > > > From - Wed Oct 16 14:35:28 1996 X-POP3-Rcpt: ez073888@peseta Received: from franc.ucdavis.edu by peseta.ucdavis.edu (8.8.0/UCD3.7.1) id OAA26021; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from po.cwru.edu by franc.ucdavis.edu (8.8.0/UCD3.7.1) id OAA11592; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu (aa440@caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu [129.22.8.211]) by po.cwru.edu with ESMTP (8.7.6+cwru/CWRU-3.0) id RAA26637; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:13:56 -0400 (EDT) (from aa440@caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu for ) Received: (aa440@localhost) by caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu (8.7.6+cwru/CWRU-2.3-bsdi) id RAA07799; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:03:50 -0400 (EDT) (from aa440) Message-Id: <199610162103.RAA07799@caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:03:50 -0400 (EDT) From: aa440@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dale Wedge) To: orphillips@ucdavis.edu Subject: Re: Area 51 Newspaper Articles Reply-To: aa440@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dale Wedge) Content-Type: text X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Content-Length: 11321 In a previous article, xx044 (UFOlogy SIG) says: > > Going through my old files I found the two following >newspaper articles on "Area 51" which seem pertinent after the >latest allegations which have been made about this secret >testing facility: > > > Las Vegas Review Journal > July 7, 1984 > > REID MUM ON VISIT TO SECRET DEFENSE BASE > By Ed Vogel > > Rep. Harry Reid kept his mouth sealed Friday about what >he saw during a visit to Area 51, the secret Department of >Defense base 100 miles north of Las Vegas. > Reid, D-Nev., refused to answer questions about what he >saw during a four-hour flight to the base aboard a Nellis Air >Force Base helicopter. > "I have no comment as to what is going on at Area 51," >Reid said during a news conference called by his staff. > Reports have circulated for years that everything from >the new Star Wars defense system to the Stealth bomber is being >tested or developed at Area 51 on the dry Groom Lake in Lincoln >County. > In the past, Reid has been strongly supportive of >measures to bolster the national defense. His opinions about >the Air Force's need to acquire 89,000 acres of additional land >surrounding the base were not changed by the trip, Reid said. > "I have always felt there was a need based on the >information I received in Washington." > The congressman said he visited the base only to gain >firsthand information to present later this summer to a House >Committee. > The Subcommittee on Public Land, chaired by Rep. John >Seiberling, D-Ohio, will meet to discuss a bill calling for the >withdrawal of additional public land for the base. > HR 4932 would add 89,000 acres adjacent to Area 51 to the >3 million acres of land now used as the Nellis bombing and >gunnery range. Land just north of the secret base now >technically is under the control of the Bureau of Land >Management. > Nonetheless, guards prevent the general public from >venturing into these lands in the Groom Mountains. Access still >is permitted to miners Patrick and Danny Sheahan, whose family >has owned the Groom Mine for nearly 100 years. Rancher Steve >Medlin also continues to graze 500 head of cattle in the >restricted mountain area. > The Sheahans have expressed concern about what may happen >to their mine. They learned the Air Force sought to withdraw >their lands from the public domain only after reading a >newspaper article in March. > "Sheahan is in direct eyesight of what is going on," Reid >said. > Reid said he met with the Sheahans and Medlin to assure >them he will try to protect their interests. He also said the >Secretary of the Air Force has written a letter assuring the men >they will continue to have access to the Groom Mountains. > But Reid said the closure of the area to the general >public causes him concern. > "Whether they can keep people of is very, very >questionable," Reid said. > Sill, Reid refused to blast the Air Force, saying >Congress has been slow in acting on the withdrawal legislation. > "It is not altogether the Air Force's fault. Part of the >fault lies with Congress. The bill has been there for two years >and nothing has been done about it." > The congressman said he will meet next week with the >Sheahan's attorney to talk about compensation for the miners if >the Air Force is given formal control over the area. > "I favor whatever makes them happy," Reid said. "I am >going back to Washington to make sure they are protected." > Reid also said he will seek new wilderness lands for >Nevada in exchange for giving additional public land to the Air >Force. > >---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Las Vegas Review Journal > October 11, 1987 > > AIR FORCE WILL SEEK CONTINUED > ACCESS RESTRICTION TO SECRET BASE > By Christopher Beall > > It is perhaps the most secret military facility in >Nevada, a place with a history of dark rumors and speculation, >and a name that has even now become an object of folklore. > Lying about 85 miles northwest of Las Vegas, the base is >an expanse of aircraft hangars, technical facilities and a >12,000 foot runway that rises above a dry lake bed in a desolate >corner of the Nellis Air Force Range. The place has no official >name, although it is unofficially referred to as Area 51. > The base's radio call sign for the Nellis air traffic >controllers who maintain the strictly restricted airspace >overhead is "Dreamland." Even Nellis fighter jocks are not >allowed to fly over Dreamland without difficult-to-get >clearance. > The Air Force is preparing to defend a request, now >dormant in Congress, to keep almost 90,000 acres out of the >public domain to protect the security of the base. > Rumors about the base have variously attributed the >Stealth bomber development program or President Reagan's "Star >Wars" missle defense program to it. There are also people who >believe the remains of an alien spacecraft are stored at the >facility. > The secrecy around the base was lifted briefly a few >years ago when the Air Force illegally closed the 89,600 acres >of public land on the Groom Mountain Range overlooking the base. > The Air Force said it needed to close public access to >the Groom Mountain Range because if a person climbed into the >mountains, he could have easy sight of the top-secret base. > There were rumors then that the base was the site of >training for the failed mission to rescue Americans from Tehran >during the Iran hostage crisis in 1980. > There has also been speculation the the Groom Lake base >is the center of the nation's Stealth bomber developmenmt >program, with the initial tests and flight development for the >supersecret, radar-defeating planes taking place over the desert >range. > There is even a group of self-described UFO experts who >say that Air Force memos indicate the shell of and alien >aircraft that crashed in 1947 in New Mexico is kept at the >facility. > However, most civilian defense watchers believe the Groom >Lake facility is now the testing ground for many of the wea[pons >that make up the Strategic Defense Initiative, known as "Star >Wars." > When the first stories of the land withdrawal broke three >years ago, most Nevada officials agreed that the federal >government probably did need to take control of the land. > But they strenuously objected to the way it was done: The >AirForce posted armed guards on the access roads and denied free >passage to anyone without clearance, all in the absence of any >approval from Congress or notification of the state. > When the closure came to light in 1984, after hunters and >hikers were turned away from their traditional stomping ground >in the Groom Mountain peaks, a Nevada political brouhaha >developed. > Anti-nuclear protesters claimed that the land had been >closed because it provided easy access for them to infiltrate >onto the Nevada Test Site. And ranchers in the area complained >that their traditional rights to graze cattel on the open public >range were being usurped. > Then-Rep. Harry Reid, D-Nev., championed the cause of >those hunters, hikers and ranchers as well as the Sheahan >family, which operates a mine in the Groom Mountains. > Congress eventually approved the Air Force's request to >withdraw the land from public access, but only after Air Force >officials admitted their initial closure of the land was >illegal. > That land withdrawal is now due to expire at the first of >the year. > In the withdrawal bill, which set aside the 140 square >miles to the west of Alamo and just outside the eastern boundary >of the Nellis bombing range, the Air Force was required to >prepare an environmental impact statement on the effects of the >closure. The service was also required to prepare a list of >proposals that would mitigate the loss of the land for the >public. > That environmental report was finished last November, and >it included a host of mitigation measures the Air Force said >were not feasible and could not be recommended. > Some of the more extravagant plans that were not accepted >called for the Air Force to spend as much as $25 million to buy >private land adjacent to the Red Rock Recreational Area in Clark >County for public access and to spend $11 million to improve the >habitat of mule deer ranges in adjacent mountains in Lincoln >County. > The recommendations the Air Force accepted include >building water guzzlers throughout Lincoln County for wild game >and opening 26 square miles in the Stonewall Mountains for >bighorn sheep hunting. > The AIr Force has also said it would like to rebuild the >road leading from Rachel into the Nevada Test Site, but it needs >congressional funding for that proposal. > All these offers to mitigate the loss of the public lands >will come up again for discussion as the Senate moves closre to >hearing a bill to renew the withdrawal. > When the original withdrawal expires Dec. 31, the Air >Force will again be caught in a position of closing access to >the land illegally, unless the new bill is approved. > But Maj. Victor Andrijauskas, spokesman for Nellis, said >the Air Force expects that the bill will be passed and signed >befoore the expiration date, and no legal problems will result. > No hearings have been held on the bill, and a spokeswoman >for Sen. Reid said Reid has placed a legislative hold on the >bill because of "sertious concerns" about how the Air Force has >handled the withdrawal. > "We are very concerned about how the Air Force has >treated the Sheahans and their mine out there, " Mary O'Driscoll >said. "We understand there have been a lot of problems for the >Sheahan family and they are not happy about the situation." > "We also want to make sure the AIr FOrce goes ahead with >the plans for the Rachel road." > O'Driscoll said the legislative hold means no action can >take place on the bill until Reid is satisfied with the Air >Force's position. > Leaders with environmental groups in Nevada said during >recent interviews that they are still not satisfied with the Air >Force's offers to mitigate the withdrawal, even though those >leaders agree that the withdrawal is necessary for national >security. > Bob Fulkerson said his lobbying group Citizen Alert does >not oppose the renewal of the Groom Mountains withdrawal, but it >does want more effort at mitigation from the Air Force. > "What they've proposed just isn't adequate," Fulkerson >said. > > > Rick D. > Co-sysop >-- > > > > > >-- > > > > > From - Wed Oct 16 16:57:19 1996 X-POP3-Rcpt: ez073888@peseta Received: from franc.ucdavis.edu by peseta.ucdavis.edu (8.8.0/UCD3.7.1) id OAA26130; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from po.cwru.edu by franc.ucdavis.edu (8.8.0/UCD3.7.1) id OAA11611; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:16:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu (aa440@caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu [129.22.8.211]) by po.cwru.edu with ESMTP (8.7.6+cwru/CWRU-3.0) id RAA26633; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:13:35 -0400 (EDT) (from aa440@caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu for ) Received: (aa440@localhost) by caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu (8.7.6+cwru/CWRU-2.3-bsdi) id RAA07680; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:03:28 -0400 (EDT) (from aa440) Message-Id: <199610162103.RAA07680@caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:03:28 -0400 (EDT) From: aa440@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dale Wedge) To: orphillips@ucdavis.edu Subject: Re: Area 51 Reply-To: aa440@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dale Wedge) Content-Type: text X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Content-Length: 37420 In a previous article, xx044 (UFOlogy SIG) says: > > Following is a compilation of the Area 51 information >uploaded courtesy of paranet and Michael Corbin: >November 11, 1989 > > ParaNet Information Service (Denver, CO)--This evening saw >perhaps an unprecedented event in UFOlogy. KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, >Nevada has been airing a UFO special during the evening news >which began on Monday dealing with the UFO mystery and cover-up. >The series, which has been covered by ParaNet, began its coverage >with a history of UFOs beginning in the late 1940s and moving >forward through the numerous sighting reports to the cattle >mutilations, which was aired last evening. As promised at the >close of last evening's show, George Knapp, a news anchorman for >Channel 8 in Vegas, stated that a scientific person would be >featured on tonight's program who has claimed to work at Area 51, >the government's super-secret test range at Nevada Test Site at >Mercury, Nevada. >Indeed, quite a story was told by Robert Lazar, a physicist who >claimed that he had worked on a project at Area 51 involving >flying disks provided by alien intelligences. > Over the last year, ParaNet has carried stories relating to >possible involvement with the government in projects of this >nature at the Nevada test site. Up to now, the stories have been >of a very speculative nature. Although the material presented by >Robert Lazar remains unconfirmed, enough information has been >disclosed that ParaNet's large investigative staff in Nevada has >started an intensive investigation into this release. Both Lazar >(formerly known only as "Dennis") and Lear have appeared on >Channel 8 -- Lear appearing on numerous occasions together will >Bill Cooper discussing Lear's famous 'ET Hypothesis.' On a past >KLAS-TV report, Lear was shown to have traveled to locations >appearing to overlook the test site which purportedly provided a >good view of the objects as they flew into the night sky. Lear >attempted to shoot video of an object as it maneuvered through >the night sky during last summer, however nothing was captured on >the tape of a substantive nature. Lear also relates that his >group was harassed by a Lincoln County sheriff following his >attempts to take the pictures. > Below is a transcript of the program that aired this >evening. All paragraphs out of quotes are the narrator of the >segment. We were as accurate as possible on the transcription, >however there are a couple of places where comments were edited >out due to inability to understand what was being said. > Further reports will be provided as information becomes >available. >================================================================= > > We've been working on the story for some time....UFO >researchers claim that there is a secret government within our >government. Now this may be hard to believe coming from the UFO >perspective, but we have learned that Watergate and the Iran >Contra scandal that factions within our government can and do >pursue their own hidden agendas outside of the law; outside the >control of the Congress or the knowledge of the American people. >This is exactly the type of operation that we hear about tonight. >It's a chilling scenario with worldwide implications that may >have its roots right here [Las Vegas, Nevada]. > Area 51, that mysterious corner of the Nevada Test Site, is >no longer considered a secret. The fact that secretive things >go on here isn't evident; even to the Soviets who make daily spy >flights over the facility to take a peek at what's going on. >These photos, never before shown in public, are about as close as >anyone will ever come to seeing what the place looks like again. >The dry bed at Groom Lake, the corrugated buildings, a three-mile >long runway and some highly sophisticated radar and detection >equipment. Its been known by many names over the years -- >Dreamland; The Ranch; The Skunk Works. If ever there was a place >to test the secret new technology, this is it. And that's >exactly what has been done here for decades. > Area 51 is where Francis Gary Powers and the other U-2 >pilots were trained in the 50s. And, where the U-2 itself was >developed. The SR-71 spy plane that spotted Soviet missiles in >Cuba in the early 60s were also developed at 51. 51 is where >Stealth technology was nurtured, where Star Wars devices are >still tested, and where all manner of CIA [unknown] business has >been plotted and refined. It's the perfect place for secret >things, but of course, that's no secret. 51 is ringed by the >forbidden vastness of the Nevada test site; by the looming Groom >Mountain and by sparsely populated desert expanses. But the >people that do live out here have no love lost for the military, >but they're conservative, patriotic and they mind their own >business. > >Interviewer questioning a nearby resident of Area 51: "Ever see >something that you can't explain?" >Resident: "Sure, lots of times." >Interviewer: "Care to elaborate?" >Resident: "No." (Laughter). > > On any given night at the Rachel Bar and Grill, you might >find three or four people who work at Area 51. They are among >the flowing Budweiser and the cowboy hats. You might find them, >but they are not going to talk to. Not about the things that >they have seen over the mountain. A steady trickle of curiosity- >seekers flows through here; strangers, drawn by strange stories >of lights in the night sky. Their questions also go unanswered. >No one who has worked at Dreamland has ever publicly acknowledged >what so many people have suspected for years: That alien >technology is being tested in the Nevada desert. > The speculation first surfaced in documents obtained by UFO >researchers. Documents about something called Project Aquarius. >The document allegedly prepared for an organization called MJ-12, >states that a program to fly recovered alien spacecraft was >established in 1972 and is continuing in Nevada. The National >Security Agency has confirmed it does have a Project Aquarius but >denies that it has anything to do with flying saucers. NSA will >not say what Project Aquarius is. > Speculation was heightened in 1984, when the Air Force >seized nearly 90,000 acres around Groom Lake. The action was, by >most accounts, illegal. During Congressional hearings about the >land grab, Congressman John Siberling grilled the military about >the legal authority used in the action and was told the authority >was at a much, much higher level than the Air Force. >Siberling asked what authority is higher than the laws of the >United States? The Air Force official said he could respond, but >only in a closed briefing. In 1987, when the Air Force sought to >renew its stranglehold on the Groom range, news articles once >again mentioned the talk about alien spacecraft and subsequent >articles in national magazines quoted un-named sources about >things of alien origin flying in Nevada. Things that would make >film-maker George Lucas drool. Despite the speculation, no one >who knew Area 51 from the inside ever talked publicly about the >saucer story. > >Bob Lazar: "Well, there's several uh, actually nine uh flying >saucers, flying disks that are out there of extraterrestrial >origin." The live interview with the shadowy "Dennis" drew >international attention. Portions were broadcast by radio in six >European countries, and in a nationally televised TV special in >Japan. > Despite numerous inquiries and "feelers," "Dennis" has >remained anonymous until now. His real name is Robert Lazar. A >young scientist with eclectic interests. The choice of "Dennis" >was an inside joke -- he says that's the name of his superior at >Groom Lake. It wasn't a joke to Dennis. > >Lazar: "He called right after and said, 'Do you have any idea >what we're going to do to you now?' and I said no, and he hung up >the phone." > > Lazar's story is by any standard, fantastic. He says he's >telling it in order to protect himself. He said he was hired to >work in area called S-4 which is a few miles south of Groom Lake. >At S-4, he says, are flying saucers, anti-matter reactors and >other working examples of technology that is seemingly beyond >human capabilities. > >Lazar: "Right. This stuff came from somewhere else. I know it >is hard to believe, but it is there and I saw it. I know what >the current state-of-the-art is in physics and it it can't be >done." > > Checking out Lazar's credentials proved to be a difficult >task. He says he holds degrees in physics and electronics, but >the schools that we contacted say they've never heard of him. He >says he also worked as a physicist at Los Alamos National >Labs where he worked with one of the world's largest particle >beam accelerators, a half-mile long 'behemoth' capable of >generating seven-hundred million volts. Los Alamos officials >told us they have no record of Robert Lazar ever working there. >They were either mistaken or were lying. A 1982 phone book from >the Lab lists Lazar right there among the other scientists and >technicians. A 1982 news clipping from the Los Alamos newspaper >profiled Lazar and his interest in jet cars. It, too, mentioned >his employment at the Lab as a physicist. We called Los Alamos >again, and an exasperated official told us he still had no >records on Lazar. EG&G, which is where Lazar says he was >interviewed for the job at S-4, also has no record. It's as if >someone has made him disappear. > >Lazar: "Well, they're trying to make me look non-existent to the >places that I called...." >Interviewer: "Explain. Called where?" >Lazar: "Well, the schools that I went to; the hospital that I >was born at; past jobs, and nothing comes up with my name on it." > > He smiles, but out of futility, knowing the whole thing must >sound ridiculous. According to Lazar, his employer was the >United States Navy. He says he and other government employees >would gather near EG&G, fly to Groom Lake, then a very few people >would get into a bus with blacked out or no windows and drive to >S-4. > >Interviewer: "You get off the bus, what do you see?" >Lazar: "A very interesting building. Its got a slope of >probably about 30 degrees which are hangar doors, and it has >textured paint on it, but it looks like sand. It's made to look >like the side of the mountain that it is in, whether it's to >disguise it from satellite photographs or what...." > > He says he was never told exactly what he would be working >on, but figured it had something to do with advanced propulsion. >On his first day he was told to read a series of briefings, and >immediately realized how advanced the propulsion really was. > >Lazar: "The power source is an anti-matter reactor. They run >gravity amplifiers. There is actually two parts to the drive >mechanism. It's a bizarre technology. There is no physical >hookups between any of the systems in there. They use gravity as >a wave using wave guides that look like microwaves." > > It took awhile, Lazar says, before he actually saw one of >the flying disks, however there were hints everywhere. > >Lazar: "Right. They had a poster, and it looked like a >commercial poster, like it was lithographed, like you could buy >it at K-Mart or someplace, but they were all over the place and >it had the disk that I coined the term 'the floor model' which >lifted off the ground about 3 feet out at the area, in the Dry >Lakes area, and the caption on it said 'They're here.' These >posters were all over the place." > > Later, he got to see the real thing. > >Lazar: "When I was led in, it was the first time that I saw the >'floor model' in the hangar sitting down, and I was told they >could have walked me in the front door but they purposely wanted >to walk me by it. I was told not to say anything and to keep my >eyes forward and walk past the disk to the office area. And I >did. And as we went by it, I just kinda stuck my hands on it, >just to run it alongside the thing and uh ....After that I got to >see actually lift off the ground and operate." >Interviewer: "You actually got to see more than one?" >Lazar: "Yeah. The hangars are all connected together. There >are large bay doors between each one. There were nine total that >I saw, each one being different. Like they had the assortment >pack." > > Security at S-4 was oppressive Lazar said, and his superiors >used fear and intimidation almost as a brainwashing tool. > >Lazar: "They did everything but physically hurt me." >Interviewer: "They put a gun to your head?" >Lazar: "Yeah." >Interviewer: "You mean they actually put a gun to your head?" >Lazar: "They did that even in the original security briefing. >Guards there with M-16s. Guys there slamming their fingers into >my chest, screaming into my ear, they were pointing weapons at >me. Like I said, it's not a good place to work." > > That fear factor would surface later. Lazar agreed to >undergo a polygraph exam as part of this report. Polygrapher Ron >Clay asked about the technology that Lazar had seen. > >Polygrapher: "Did you knowingly lie when you had actually seen >anti-gravity propulsion in operation?" >Lazar: "No." > > The results of this exam were inconclusive. Lazar appeared >to be truthful on one test; deceitful on a second. Clay >recommended that a second examiner be brought in. Polygrapher >Terry Tabernetti (sp?) runs a corporate security operation and is >a former Los Angeles police officer. He put Lazar through four >tests and concluded there were no attempts to deceive. > Tabernetti sent his test results to a third polygrapher who >agreed the results appeared truthful. The charts were then sent >to a fourth examiner who did not agree suggesting that Lazar >might be relating information he'd learned from someone else. >The polygraphers concurred and decided they would not issue a >final statement on truthfulness until more specific testing can >be conducted. And that's where it stands. > Tabernetti believes the difficulty in determining Lazar's >truthfulness stems from the fear that was drilled into him. > >Lazar: "Well, I am telling the truth. I've tried to prove that. >What's going on up there could be the most important event in >history. You're talking about contact, physical contact and >proof from another planet, another system, another intelligence. >Thats got to be the biggest event in history, period. And, it's >real and it's there. And I had an extremely small part in it. >I'm convinced that what I saw is absolute proof of that. There >is no way that we could have created those disks. There is no >way we could have made the disks, the power supplies, anything >that goes with it." > > Lazar says he has no intention of going on any UFO lecture >circuit. He is not looking to do any additional interviews. In >fact, he was not too crazy about doing this one. He did it after >certain unfavorable things started happening in his life, and he >did it because he feels that whoever is running the show up at S- >4 is perpetrating a fraud on the American people and the >scientific community. > >================================================================= > >November 13, 1989 > > ParaNet Information Service (Denver, CO) -- In our >continuing coverage of the remarkable revelations coming out of >Las Vegas, Nevada, here is the next installment to the program >aired on November 13, 1989 by television station KLAS-TV and >George Knapp. > >================================================================= >News Anchor persons: > A former government scientist has alleged that the U.S. >military is flying recovered UFOs at a secret base in the Nevada >desert. The allegations about the secret facility near the Groom >Mountains first surfaced on Eyewitness News on last Friday >[November 10, 1989]. > Scientist Bob Lazar says that there are at least nine of the >flying saucers being tested and that they were not built on >Earth. George Knapp has more on the continuation of our series >on UFOs. > >Lazar: "Yeah. It was obvious it came from somewhere else, uh, >other than Earth." > > Scientist Bob Lazar was convinced that the technology he saw >being tested at a secret base in the Nevada desert is of alien >origin, and for Lazar the proof is, at least, partially in the >furniture. One of the nine flying disks he says he saw at the >base, which was designated S-4, looks exactly like this UFO >photographed in Europe [Photo of UFO shown]. Lazar called it >the "sport model." > >Lazar: "I gave everything names -- the top hat one and you know >the jello mold and, uh, the sport model operated without any >hitches at all. I mean, it looked new. If I knew what a new >flying saucer looked like. One of them looked like it was hit >with some sort of a projectile. It had a large hole in the >bottom and a large hole in the top with the metal bent out like >some sort of, you know, large caliber 4 or 5 inch had gone >through it." > > Even before he saw the sport model operate, Lazar says, he >suspected that the ship came from somewhere else. The >realization slapped him in the face the first time he glimpsed >the inside of the disk. > >Lazar: "I got to look inside and it had really small chairs. I >think that was the first confirmation I had. That was just a >shocking thing because everytime before that I was able to label >it. This is just a little advance that a group of scientists had >formed and, you know, they're keeping it secret, and yeah, we >could have built a big disk like that, and yeah, that's no >problem, and, you know, we could have adapted the use(?) to make >it fly, but why does it have little furniture inside? [garbled]. >And things began to click together just all too fast." > > A few of the disks had been completely dismantled to find >out how they worked, Lazar says, but others were fully >operational. A Japanese TV network created this animated version >of Lazar's story after his first interview with us aired in May >[showing video]. Lazar says the dramatization is similar to a >test flight he witnessed. > >Lazar: "The bottom of it glowed blue and began to hiss like any, >like high voltage does on a round sphere. It's my impression >that the reason that they're round and have no sharp edges is to >contain the high voltage like, uh, if you've seen a high voltage >system's insulators -- things are round or else you get a corona >discharge. In either case, it began to hiss as in high voltage >and it lifted off the ground quietly except for that little hiss >in the background, and that stopped as soon as it reached about >20 or 30 feet." > > Lazar says the test of the sport model was a short one -- >that it made only a few moves before setting back down. He >didn't see who was actually flying the craft, but was very >impressed, nonetheless. > >Lazar: "Well, there's no action reaction system to it. There's >no, like in a jet engine, exhaust gas being thrown out -- no >propeller, no noise. It's just, for all intents and purposes, >magic." > > To Lazar's knowledge, the flying disks are not being used, >for say, any flights to Jupiter. He said excessive caution and >intense secrecy contributed to the plodding pace of the program >and were a main source of his disenchantment. > >Lazar: "It's just unfair, outright, not to put it in the hands >of the overall scientific community. There are people much more >capable of dealing with this information, and by this time would >have gotten a lot further along than this small select group of >people working out in the middle of the desert. They don't even >have the facilities, really, to completely analyze what they're >dealing with." > >Gene Huff: "Well he was being quiet. If he kept me abreast of >anything, he kept me abreast of the security checks -- they'd >randomly drop by his house. They'd threaten his life; they'd >threaten his wife's life. They had done all that so we really >didn't converse, I mean, he really was adhering to the program." > > Gene Huff is a Las Vegas real estate appraiser. A regular >guy who just happens to have a friend in the flying saucer >business. He learned about Lazar's S-4 experiences only after a >long period. Lazar is anxious for people to know that he didn't >just run right out and spill the secrets of the universe, and >that some things are properly kept confidential. > >Lazar: "I did not believe that this should be a security matter. >Some of it, sure. But, just the concept that there's definite >proof, and uh, we even have articles from another world, another >system, you just can't not tell everyone. A lot of people don't >believe that. But, I do." > > When he reached what he felt was his bursting point, he took >Huff and a few others to the edge of the Groom Mountains to see >the flights for themselves. A total of five witnesses on two >consecutive weeks managed to dodge security patrols long enough >to see the strange glowing object lift above the mountain. > >Huff(?): "Uh, it came up above the same mountain. It moved >around. It did a step move -- it actually went up in the air >like this [showing details with hands] and it hovered then >dropped way down then it just floated around and cruised around. >It starts coming up the mountain range...." > > This home video tape was recorded during one of the trips to >the Groom Mountains [showing video tape. A lot of >talking....Object in sight....Mention of brightness of the >object....]. > Admittedly, the tape proves very little by itself because, >with the distance and darkness, there are no reference points >other than the alleged flying disk, but Lazar's information about >the time and location of the test flight proves correct -- not >once but twice. That, according to our off-camera interviews >with each of the other witnesses. Gene Huff describes his second >sighting: > >Huff: "Through the telescope we could see an elliptical-shaped >light. You can only get so close even with a telescope to a >secure facility. Anyway, it came up by us very rapidly. It >glowed and glows brighter like a star and we almost got the >feeling that it was going to explode, it glowed so brightly. We >backed up behind the car then it went down and glowed back up a >little bit and then very softly glided back over, back where the >mountains where it came up, hovered for awhile, and then that's >that....Just like you see in the movies." > > Bob Lazar isn't the only person to claim "inside knowledge" >of the flying disks at the test site -- he is just the only >person to say so publicly. We have communicated with several >people who say they know of the saucer program. A technician in >a highly sensitive position told us it is "common knowledge among >those with high security clearances that recovered alien disks >are stored at the Nevada test site." A Las Vegas professional, >who once served in the military and was stationed at the test >site, said he saw a flying disk land outside the boundaries of >Area 51 -- that it was quickly surrounded by security personnel >and that he was taken away and debriefed for several hours. A >man who once worked at Groom Lake as a technician, at our >request, wrote this letter explaining how he inadvertently walked >into the wrong hangar and saw what appeared to be a large >metallic disk under a tarp. It was being examined by men in lab >coats. And, an airman who worked at Nellis at a radar >installation says he and his fellow servicemen watched over a >period of five nights, unusual objects flying over the Groom >Mountains. He says the radar images indicates the objects zoomed >into range at speeds of 7,000 miles per hour and then would stop >on a dime, and that nothing we have is capable of doing that. >The airman says that when word of his sighting got out, he was >ordered to turn off his radar sensors for that area and told to >keep quiet about the matter because it did not happen. > None of this means that the military is actually flying >alien spacecraft in the Nevada desert. It could all perhaps be >explained as some other secret program. Lazar insists that's not >the case. > We put the matter to the U.S. Navy, which according to >Lazar, is running the saucer show. Four different naval offices >were contacted. All denied having any information in their >files. The Naval Research Lab said it conducted a thorough >search but found "zip." Naval Intelligence said much the same >thing, adding, it is not required to create a file where one >doesn't exist. A side note: We also requested files on a UFO >sighting over Tremonton, Utah in 1952. The Navy spent more than >a thousand hours studying film of that sighting -- a fact that's >been noted in several publications -- but, for purposes of our >request, the Navy couldn't find those files either. > >Lazar: "The group that runs this project, whether it really is >the Navy or they just say that, apparently these people have >executive power -- they don't report to anyone." > > Tomorrow, more troubling allegations of the military >potential of alien technology. >================================================================= > >November 14, 1989 > > ParaNet Information Service (Denver, CO) -- In our >continuing coverage of the Riddle of Area 51, here is yet another >installment of the KLAS-TV program being aired in Las Vegas, >Nevada featuring Bob Lazar, who has 'come out of the closet' so >to speak with information regarding government testing of UFOs. > >================================================================= > > Just over this ridge [showing a photo of Area 51], tucked >inside the test tubes of a hidden government base, the secrets of >the universe may be unfolding. The area is designated S-4, and >according to one man who claims to have worked there, S-4 harbors >scientific achievements that would astonish our deepest >thinkers. It is technology that, if it exists, could change the >world, but is allegedly bottled up by military minds. > >Lazar: "It's not an overall government project. It's not >something that Congress appropriates money for. 2 billion is for >this; 15 billion for flying saucers; 8 billion for Star Wars. It >doesn't go like that. I don't believe that they have any >knowledge of it at all." > > The technology that Bob Lazar says he saw extends far beyond >flying saucers. An anti-matter reactor allows the spaceships to >produce their own gravitational fields, he says, such a >technology, if real, would answer UFO skeptics who argue that >aliens could never visit Earth because the distances between >worlds are too great, even at the speed of light. > >Lazar: "Gravity distorts time and space. Just like if you had a >water bed and put a bowling ball in the middle. It warps it down >like that -- that's exactly what happens to space. Imagining >that you were in a spacecraft that could exert a tremendous >gravitational field by itself you could sit on any particular >place and turn on the gravity generator and actually warp space >and time, and fold it. By shutting that off, you'd click back >and you'd be a tremendous distance from where you were but time >would not have even moved because you essentially shut it off. I >mean it is so far fetched, people....it's difficult for people to >grasp, and as stubborn as the scientific community is they'll >never buy it, but this is, in fact, that's just what happens." > > Actually, Lazar's explanation is very close to mainstream >scientific thought, and can be traced directly to Einstein. The >difference is scientists regard it as theory only. There is much >that science still doesn't know. > >Dale Etheridge (Scientist): "There are people who say that our >main problem with that is we don't know what gravity is. It's >this magical force that acts at a distance. We can describe how >it behaves -- that's what the law of gravity is -- it's just a >description of how it behaves, but it says nothing about what >gravity really is." > > > We'll use Etheridge as our barometer of scientific thought. >He says we cannot produce gravity; that there's no such thing as >a working anti-matter reactor, and that we have yet to figure out >a way to get around the speed of light. He also concedes, >though, such things are possible. > >Etheridge: "Yeah. And really we don't know what's possible as >there could be other civilizations out there several hundred >years or so -- a thousand years, even a million years ahead of >us -- that have found a way to circumvent this. We have no way >of knowing for sure." > >Lazar: "Well, the thing is when you harness gravity, you harness >everything. It's the missing piece in physics right now. We >really know very little about gravity." > > At least that's the way it used to be. Lazar says the >technology to harness gravity not only exists but is being tested >at S-4. And, if such technology is beyond human capabilities, it >must have come from someplace else. It's more than conjecture, >he says, because he also saw an element that cannot be found on >the periodic chart. The element, called 115, can be stored in >lead casings much like this one [showing a lead circular >container]. Lazar says the government has 500 pounds of it, and >it cannot be made on earth. > >Lazar: "It would be almost impossible; well, it is impossible to >synthesize an element that heavy here on Earth." > >Interviewer: "At least right now." > >Lazar: "I don't think that you can ever synthesize it. The >amount of....you essentially have to assemble it by bombarding it >with protons if....atom by atom, it would take an infinite amount >of power and an infinite amount of time. The substance has to >come from a place where super-heavy elements could have been >produced naturally. > > And what sort of place is that? > >Lazar: "Next to a much larger sun where there would be greater >mass. Maybe a binary star system -- a super-nova -- somewhere >where there is just a bigger release of energy to synthesize >these things naturally. It has to be a naturally occurring >element." > > 115 is the fuel for the anti-matter reactors, he says. By >bombarding 115 anti-matter is produced. A kilo of anti-matter >could produce the energy equivalent of 46 ten-megaton hydrogen >bombs, and comparing the energy potential of anti-matter to, say, >the Hoover Dam would be like comparing planets to grains of sand. >115 could also make one heck of a bomb. > >Lazar: "We're talking about hundreds and hundreds of megatons >off a small piece of it. It sounds incredible, but total >conversion of matter to energy would release that amount of >power. And it isn't that difficult to take....get the energy out >of it. So it's not something you'd ever want to fall anyone's >hands." > > The dangers associated with 115 and anti-matter may be the >reason Lazar was hired to work at S-4. There was an accident, he >says, back in April 1987. An accident that was passed off as an >unannounced nuclear test. > >Lazar: "Some people got killed. I was told flat out I was one >of the people that were to replace these guys." > > Is this why the government might be keeping the whole matter >a secret? Because of the military potential of alien technology? >Lazar says he believes the Soviet Union was once part of our >research on the flying disks, but that the U.S. kicked the >Soviets out after making some sort of discovery. He also >believes the program at S-4 is operated with funds allocated to >Star Wars research, but says he can't prove it. Some UFO >researchers suspect the government is test flying alien craft so >that it can one day master the technology and claim it was made >in the good old U.S.A., thus obscuring the possibility of alien >visitations. > >Stanton T. Friedman: "I think they have the duty to inform us. >At least to the bare bones of what's going on. I don't want >technological stuff put out on the table. I mean, I worked on >classified projects for 15 years, and I don't think we need >another weapon's delivery system. But I think the government >does have the responsibility to release information that, indeed, >the planet is being visited. Probably it should be done in >conjunction with the Soviets." > >Lazar: "I don't think that it will get to that level. They're >not going to have a fleet of them and fly them around and....I >don't think you need to do that. If you're looking at them from >a weapons point of view, you're looking at an incredibly powerful >device. You only need one to operate. You don't ever need to >come public with it. You may want to learn more about it should >it ever break which is....might be what they're doing. Uh...." > >Interviewer: "They've got one...." > >Lazar: "Oh, they've got a few. Yeah." > > Lazar is the first to admit that his story is tough to >swallow. He submitted to polygraph exams that opened up >sensitive parts of his personal life, and fully expects to be >ridiculed or perhaps punished for his revelations. His desire to >explain what really happened at S-4 took us to Layne Keck, a >licensed experienced hypnotherapist who quietly and privately >tried to help Lazar remember details of the many briefing papers >he says he read. > >Keck: "I have no clue as to what we were getting to, and he >started saying that there were pictures of what I thought was >desks on the wall. Well as it turned out, it was disks that he >was referring to. And, at that moment, I realized we were into >something that was pretty heavy." > > Keck does not exaggerate his claims for hypnosis. He >regards it as a useful tool for uncovering some lost memory. He >says people are quite capable of lying under hypnosis, but says >the technique can be of help in determining truth. What's his >opinion of Lazar's truthfulness? > >Keck: "It tells me that his subconscious mind believes totally >all of these things." > > Lazar has long suspected that his government employers used >some sort of mind control technique to prevent him from >disclosing too much about S-4. While he says he has vivid >conscious memories of the saucers and other technology there were >other memories, that even now, remained locked, which is why he >sought out Keck in the first place. Keck is convinced that >someone really did mess with Lazar's head. > >Keck: "Also they used primitive fear in threatening those in his >environment if he did bring this information forth. Also, it >appears that maybe there were some chemicals used." > >Lazar: "Nah, I'm not going to change anyone's mind. That not my >intention. I'm just relaying the experience. The job that I >went through. It is a fantastic thing. It's a fantastic story. >I can't take people there to show them what was going on, and uh, >you know, I don't expect anyone to believe it." > > What if he is right? What if aliens are here? How would >this change our view of the world? Our most fundamental beliefs, >which is religion? We'll know more on that tomorrow. >-- > > > > > >-- > > > > > From - Wed Oct 16 15:00:27 1996 X-POP3-Rcpt: ez073888@peseta Received: from franc.ucdavis.edu by peseta.ucdavis.edu (8.8.0/UCD3.7.1) id OAA26223; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from po.cwru.edu by franc.ucdavis.edu (8.8.0/UCD3.7.1) id OAA11598; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu (aa440@caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu [129.22.8.211]) by po.cwru.edu with ESMTP (8.7.6+cwru/CWRU-3.0) id RAA26614; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:13:15 -0400 (EDT) (from aa440@caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu for ) Received: (aa440@localhost) by caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu (8.7.6+cwru/CWRU-2.3-bsdi) id RAA07454; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:03:08 -0400 (EDT) (from aa440) Message-Id: <199610162103.RAA07454@caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:03:08 -0400 (EDT) From: aa440@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dale Wedge) To: orphillips@ucdavis.edu Subject: RE: Govt. Secrecy Uploads from Paranet Alpha Reply-To: aa440@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dale Wedge) Content-Type: text X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Content-Length: 122553 In a previous article, xx044 (UFOlogy SIG) says: > >MsgText (v1.20) scanning 123 messages on "UFO Echo" >Operating at 23:31:00 on 09/24/88 > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Speiser #4995 "UFO Echo" > To: All Authored at 20:19 on 09-05-88 >Subject: Announcement > > The National Fringe Sciences Information Service > And > ParaNet Alpha > > Are Pleased to Announce that they will be Hosting > > The 26th Annual > NATIONAL UFO CONFERENCE > > To Be Held in Phoenix, Arizona > in September of 1989 > > Details to Be Announced. > > Jim Speiser > Convention Chairman > Member, Permanent > Organizing Committee >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Joe Holland #5000 "UFO Echo" > To: All Authored at 01:50 on 09-06-88 >Subject: Military Secrecy > > Well, Jim, you asked for continuing input, so I'll put in here the >same message that I put into the Compuserve Issues Forum. I am >continuing to feel concerned about the ignorant meddling of Ufologists >in things they don't understand. I am definitely not saying hands off, >but I am saying, caution. > On the other hand, for all we know, some Ufologists could know more >than the government. > I have pretty much come to the conclusion that there is legitimate >military secrecy involved, based on what has turned up in a year of >BBSing. If the military has gained something here, I definitely do not >want to jeapordise what we have paid a price to get. I for one may >refuse to discuss online certain technical aspects, just from not >knowing what is at stake. And I certainly will not go on TV, (although >I have been on TV), to criticise the government, from a platform of >ignorance. > However, I also feel that the processes leading to the existing >situation have not been legitimate in the ordinary sense. But then, how >could they be? > What I seem to want is to somehow gain access to the knowledge >without jeapordising anything. We do have a legitimate question of who >is qualified to know. I am, of course, (ahem) qualified. I would be >capable of secrecy if the situation called for it. > On the news tonight, I heard that one out of 7 ? fliers who take >part in things like air shows has died in crashes. Yet the military >still consider the air shows worthwhile. This displays the military >mentality, highly useful in war. No doubt a similar approach could >have been applied to the UFO situation. But I as a citizen would like >to have more input into this, more access, perhaps under controlled >conditions. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Speiser #5011 "UFO Echo" > To: Joe Holland Authored at 10:24 on 09-06-88 >Subject: Re: Military Secrecy > >What you say may be true, but then not once, to my mind, has any legit >ufologist every been told straight out by a legit military source, >"look, stay away from this, its military." I, for one, would accept >that and back off, and I would urge my fellow researchers to do the >same. Instead we get an occasional strafing run by a black helicopter. >All they have to do is ask.... >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Speiser #5012 "UFO Echo" > To: Joe Holland Authored at 10:28 on 09-06-88 >Subject: Re: Military Secrecy > >You know, that brings up one possible idea...contact the Air Force, ask >who it is that answers requests for UFO information, say, the FOI >officer. Ask him to make a public statement at the conference, or at >least type one up for the conference, addressing whether or not >continued UFO research in sensitive areas such as MJ-12 or PIREPS >constitutes a threat to National Security. In other words, GET THE AIR >FORCE ON THE RECORD FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 20 YEARS. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Delton #5015 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Speiser Authored at 11:37 on 09-06-88 >Subject: Re: Announcement > >That is terrific!!! >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Delton #5016 "UFO Echo" > To: Joe Holland Authored at 11:44 on 09-06-88 >Subject: Re: Military Secrecy > >I have a hard time agreeing with many of your concerns about secrecy. >It has been shown over and over again that the U.S. government will >stamp Top Secret on just about anything, including used toliet paper to >avoid having the public find out what they are really doing with our >tax dollars. There seems to be a mentality that develops amoung people >in government that no one but "themselves" should be privy to "inside" >information. If the government would be forthright about things that >don't need to be kept secret, they would have a lot easier time of it >in keeping things that do need to be kept secret, secret. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Delton #5017 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Speiser Authored at 11:51 on 09-06-88 >Subject: Re: Military Secrecy > >Unfortunately, our government has (at least as far as I am concerned) >so little credibility in it's determination of what needs to be secret >and what doesn't, that for some source to say " stay away, it a >military secret" would mean little to me. It might well be a real >secret but it also might well be another attempt to keep the public in >the dark. You may recall recent revelations about how the tremendous >cost overruns on some military weapons were NOT told to the appropriate >congressional oversight committees or the OMB, both of whom had >legitamate needs and rights to know the truth. If Congress and OMB >can't get the true story how well do you think UFOlogists are doing? >And, as usual, when the truth about the cost overruns dids finally come >out it was obvious that the reason the military didn't want it out was >not because of any threat to national security but because it was a >threat to the continued funding of a failed and/or incompetently >managed program. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Steve Gresser #5030 "UFO Echo" > To: Al Pinto Authored at 19:40 on 09-06-88 >Subject: Re: Coverup > >RE: Your message of 01Sept88, in regards to my being a skeptic. I know >how all of you feel about ParaNet, due to some negative stuff that has >come over the wires, but I think you'd be surprised at exactly what >DOES go on over here. Admittedly, we have all types, from "Born-Again" >UFOlogists to absolute debunkers. What we search for is a middle >ground, a curious disbelief one might say, in regards to each and every >subject. We never find it, and what we usually end up with is saying >"Sure, you believe what you want to and I'll believe what I want to, >because we have that right". > Anyway, that is that. I will continue to investigate, and I >will continue to believe deep in my heart that the phenomena exists >(UFO's) and that it will eventually be discovered. > So there, nyaa. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Steve Gresser #5031 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Speiser Authored at 19:44 on 09-06-88 >Subject: Re: Military Secrecy > >If you told me, Jimbo, that the thing was "military" and I should keep >my hands off, I think I might be tempted to put my hands in a bit >deeper, but only for my own sake. The only thing that would make it >different for me would be who I would let know (which means probably >nobody). >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Steve Gresser #5032 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Speiser Authored at 19:46 on 09-06-88 >Subject: Re: Military Secrecy > (Private) > >>GET THE AIR FORCE ON THE RECORD . . . > > Who do I call? >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Al Pinto #5035 "UFO Echo" > To: Steve Gresser Authored at 20:33 on 09-06-88 >Subject: Re: Coverup > >Dear Steve, > > >nyaa > > I didn't mean to offend you. I guess I did. > > Sorry, > - Al >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Steve Gresser #5037 "UFO Echo" > To: Al Pinto Authored at 21:11 on 09-06-88 >Subject: Re: Coverup > >Sorry, my "nyaa" is similar to James Vincent's "Be seeing ya". Check >out "Airplane: The Movie" (I think that's the one). At the VERY END of >the credits is a BIG, LONG legal statement, and at the end of that is >the sentence "So there, nyaa." Possibly the funniest part of the >movie. But who's to say? Anyway, no I was not offended. You want to >see offended, check my reply to "Bill Cooper" in UFOlogy (and while >you're at it, see if you can remember which message he is replying >to?). >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: James Vincent #5046 "UFO Echo" > To: Steve Gresser Authored at 01:05 on 09-07-88 >Subject: Re: Coverup > >Steve! Sheesh! It's perfectly simple, I DO wish you'd listen... > >Steve, you said "...investigate every little report? Ha! No way, Jose!" >Bill said "Sheesh, dude, that's really limiting your mind, blah, blah, >blah, and blah." >Steve, you then replied in an offended tone. Okay? Got it. > >Be seeing you... > >-=James >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Steve Gresser #5058 "UFO Echo" > To: James Vincent Authored at 01:17 on 09-07-88 >Subject: Re: Coverup > >Oh, well, that's it, then. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Al Pinto #5080 "UFO Echo" > To: Steve Gresser Authored at 18:51 on 09-07-88 >Subject: Re: Coverup > >Steve, > > I'm glad I didn't offend you. I'll go and check that message out >now. > > So there, nyaa, > -Al >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Al Pinto #5081 "UFO Echo" > To: Steve Gresser Authored at 18:55 on 09-07-88 >Subject: Cooper message > (Private) > >Steve, > > I didn't find Mr.Cooper's message on the UFO board. I guess he >pissed Jim Speiser off too! > >Later, >-Al >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Steve Gresser #5229 "UFO Echo" > To: Al Pinto Authored at 23:22 on 09-07-88 >Subject: Re: Coverup > >No problem - and thanks! >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Steve Gresser #5230 "UFO Echo" > To: Al Pinto Authored at 23:22 on 09-07-88 >Subject: Re: Cooper message > (Private) > >I'll have to ask Jim, but he didn't mention anything to me by Voice. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Victor Zandy #5342 "UFO Echo" > To: All Authored at 21:11 on 09-05-88 >Subject: Wonder of the World... > > > Here is something to probe the inner regions of the brain with... > > > You're driving down the street (or highway, drag strip, Amish > > farmer road). You've got your mello music, A+ coffee mug and > > an $800 Fuzbuster at your side. Another driver slowly creeps > > up along side of you, nonchalant, of course; you think nothing > > of him. But something inside of you makes you turn and look > > at him. And oddly enough, he looks at you. Why do you suppose > this happens? Is there something programmed in our heads that > makes us look at each other on the street? > > This doesn't exactly belong in the UFO echo but I felt like > > writing it anyways... > > >--- > * Origin: Flower City Central HST, Rochester,NY (Opus 1:260/204) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Joe Holland #5347 "UFO Echo" > To: Sysop Authored at 01:43 on 09-08-88 >Subject: Air Force relations > > Well, maybe there is something to the idea of opening a channel >to the Air Force. Maybe establish diplomatic relations with certain >people in the Air Force, prepare an ambasadorial portfolio. After all, >they have been our allies in the past. > Their black helicopters have not slowed us down much, and we could >let them know we are ready for a better approach. > Question: do we have any common objective with them? Offhand, no. >We want to know. They want to keep it secret. But there could be >something we have to discuss. And with abductions continuing, and the >investigators building a stockpile of knowledge of what no one was >supposed to know, they just might have to take a position, enter a >dialogue. I would prefer to avoid an adverserial position if that is >possible. > I'm in no hurry about this, just talking. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Al Pinto #5513 "UFO Echo" > To: All Authored at 22:51 on 09-08-88 >Subject: Hudson Valley UFO sighting > >Date: Thursday, 9/8/88 >Duration: 9:10 - 9:45 pm > > My cousin and I went out sky watching. I want to start off by >saying that our intention was to see if we could spot a UFO. My cousin >Steve, has seen the Hudson Valley UFO on four other occasions. I have >seen it once before but not like tonight. > > I still can't believe it! Steve and I thought that the best night >to spot a UFO would be either on a Thursday or Sunday. This is because >past sightings seem to be reported mostly on these nights. We therefore >came to a somewhat accurate prediction on when to see this thing. > > Our plan was to drive up Rt 44/55 toward Lake Minnewaska to a >place that is along the Shaungunk (sp?) ridge. This area would afford >us a good view of the Valley as it is about 750-800 ft above it. As >soon as we got out of the truck, there it was! > > The object was moving at what seemed to be a very slow clip. About >25-30 mph. It was approximately 4-5 miles away from us but we had >binoculars. Mine were 7x35 and Steve's were 7x50. Too far for a decent >picture. All I had was my Nikon 35mm with a 50mm lens. The UFO took up >about 1/3 of my field of view through my binos. The shape of the >strange lights changed shape many times. What I mean is that the UFO >changed course, angle, pitch, and yaw as to give us many different >veiwing angles. The object first appeared as a rotating, circular >pattern of lights with a red light trailing. The circular part had >about 6-8 lights that blinked from bright to dim, red, yellow, white >and blue. The trailing red light was blinking at a steady interval. The >lights were strange. I can't explain it without a common frame of >referance. It was headed in a NE-SW direction. It did not move in a >straight line but rather, it wavered that direction mainly. The object was level with our eyesight and we >were about 750-800 ft high. We viewed the object at this sight for >about 20 minutes then we lost it behind trees. > > I said to Steve, "Let's head down to your house since it looks >like the UFO went in that general direction." We got back in the truck >and headed back down 44/55 toward Steve's house. We were about 3/4 of a >mile away from Steve's when we spotted it again. We stopped and got >out. The object was much closer this time but we didn't stay to look >that long because it looked like the UFO was right over Steve's house! >I drove like a madman to Steve's from there. Whem we got to the tip of >his driveway, we got out and sure enough, there it is! Steve ran to >call neighbors. I stayed and viewed. What I saw was now a boomerang >patern of lights. 8-10 of them blinking from bright to dim in a very >strange way. The object was about a half mile from me now heading from >SW-NE towards New Paltz. The lights were red, yellow, orange, white and >blue. It was just over the tree tops. I estimate it's size to be about >1000ft. The time is 9:35. Steve's neighbor, Bob, came out and witnessed >what I saw. He was very excited and agreed that the thing was HUGE! >Definately not a plane, formation of planes or anything else I could >explain or any of us for that matter. We looked at this for about 7 min >when we were joined by Steve's other neighbor's teenage son and his >friend. They saw this thing for about 3 minutes then it disappeared >behind a pine tree and never emerged. > > I did not call any local airports, police stations, or radio >stations. I did see a small plane fly very close to the UFO in the >opposite direction then circle back as if to have a look and then head >back on his original course. There had to be close encounters but no >news yet through the media. > > If anyone else has seen this object write me or leave a message >here. Al Pinto 37 Elephant Rock Rd. > Woodbury, CT 06798 >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: The Warlock's Castle (602)983-0851 Rockin' Not WOC'in (1:114/27) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Al Pinto #5514 "UFO Echo" > To: All Authored at 22:52 on 09-08-88 >Subject: Hudson Valley UFO sighting > >I WANT TO KNOW WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON!!!!!! >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: The Warlock's Castle (602)983-0851 Rockin' Not WOC'in (1:114/27) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Pugnose #5525 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Delton Authored at 19:57 on 09-05-88 >Subject: Renato Vesco > > >Dear Jim, > > > > I haven't read anything by him recently either. The material I wrote >about was from an Argussy magazine article. The issue was in August 1969. > > He did have a book called "Intercept UFO." This book was written in >the 60's sometime. What is the name of the book you read by him? > > I don't even know if he is still alive. I am going to research him >and his theories in much greater detail. You and everyone at Paranet will >be the first to know. > > Thank you for the interest. It is in everyone's best interest to >research all the theories involved regarding UFO's. This is only one of >them. > > > > Keep in touch, > > -Al > > >--- > * Origin: Heartbreak Hotel, WOC'in and Roll'in! 203-270-1913 (Opus 1:141/790) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Pugnose #5526 "UFO Echo" > To: Tracy Mickley Authored at 20:05 on 09-05-88 >Subject: Re: Communion By Whitley Streiber > > >Dear Tracy, > > > > First off I go by the handle of Pugnose on this BBS so don't be >confused. I am Al Pinto. > > It is hard to believe Whitley because I have spoke to people (I'd >rather not name names) who know him and I asked them the same question >regarding how believable is his story. One person said Whitley tends to >stretch his facts to make his stories more acceptable. He is also someone >who is getting paid a great deal of money for that and other books >regarding this subject. I believe Hollywood is even making a movie out of >"Communion". > > You must understand that the people behind the books are the >publishers. They want stories that will sell hundreds of thousands of >copies. They want entertainment even if the truth has to be compromised >to some degree. For example, I just attended a lecture by Phil Imbrogno, >one of the authors of "Night Seige" and the question was raised, "Will >you put out another book on UFO sightings in the Hudson Valley?" His >reply was that he would love to but the publishers wanted little green >men not mere sightings and technical data. > > We should keep in mind that this whole subject is far out enough. >What it needs is more facts and less exaggeration and speculation. We all >need the truth but, when money is involved, truth is often easily >overlooked. We need more Authors such as Imbrogno, Vesco, and Edwards. > > > > Keep in touch, > > - Al > > >--- > * Origin: Heartbreak Hotel, WOC'in and Roll'in! 203-270-1913 (Opus 1:141/790) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Pugnose #5527 "UFO Echo" > To: Dick Harper Authored at 20:22 on 09-05-88 >Subject: Re: UFO's and other strange meetings. > > >Dear Dick, > > > > It is great to hook up with you again. It has been a long time. > > > > I go by the handle of PUGNOSE on my local BBS. It has the National >UFO echo on it. So look for that name as well. > > > > As far as "Communion" goes... It is amazing what some people would >write for money! > > > > Keep in Touch! > > -Al > > >--- > * Origin: Heartbreak Hotel, WOC'in and Roll'in! 203-270-1913 (Opus 1:141/790) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Pugnose #5528 "UFO Echo" > To: Richard Helms Authored at 20:49 on 09-05-88 >Subject: Dear Rich, > > > In case you haven't noticed, this is a National UFO echo. I think I >can speak for everyone seriously interested in UFOs and this echo when I >say, save the Elvis crap for some other echo. If you waqnt to talk about >UFOs and related subjects you are welcome here. If not, please go >somewhere else > > >--- > * Origin: Heartbreak Hotel, WOC'in and Roll'in! 203-270-1913 (Opus 1:141/790) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Pugnose #5529 "UFO Echo" > To: All Authored at 20:26 on 09-05-88 >Subject: Update-"Night Seige" > > > I attended a lecture given by "Night Seige' author Phillip J. >Imbrogno on 9/5/88 in New Milford, CT. > > He pretty much just told about sightings that were mentioned in his >book. Overall the lecture was interesting because he had a slide >presentation and some videos. One of the videos was the Pozzouli (sp?) >tape. I was glad to see and hear it in it's entirety. The object was as >large as a football field, rotated on it's axis, had no sound, and is >totally unexplained by JPL and other authorities. > > He also had the most incredible picture I have ever seen regarding >the Hudson Valley UFO. It was well... I don't know how to explain it but >it was verified to be approx. 800-1000 ft., semicircular, and definately >one rigid object. I believe Bruce Maccabee did the verifing. I'm not sure >of that though. I am sure of the fact that the picture went to many >different organizations to be tested for authenticity. Everyone had the >same result. One large rigid object and totally unexplainable. > > Phil said that the publishers are not interested in a follow up book >regarding the Hudson Valley UFO. Even though at the time there were 5000 >reports and since then, over 4000 more! He said that they wanted little >green men. Little green men sell books. Sightings apparently do not. This >really upsets me. We should be glad that we have mediums such as this >national UFO echo. With all the crap published about this subject I find >talking to Paraneters refreshing to say the least. Be careful about what >you read regarding this subject. Talk to people like Jim Speiser, Phil >Imbrogno, and Budd Hopkins about a particular book or author before you >buy from them. Fill your mind with the truth not fantasy. This stuff is >serious! It is a shame that money compromises the truth regarding UFOS. > > > > Later > > -Al Pinto > > >--- > * Origin: Heartbreak Hotel, WOC'in and Roll'in! 203-270-1913 (Opus 1:141/790) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Delton #5538 "UFO Echo" > To: Pugnose Authored at 09:57 on 09-09-88 >Subject: Re: Renato Vesco > >Intercept UFO was the book that I read. I found it in a used bookstore >(and believe me, not only was the book used, so was the bookstore). At >the time he wrote the book, late 60's, it was about 20 years after the >war and the pieces did sort of fit together. Now, 40 years after the >war it is a little harder for me to believe that if what he was >theorizing was true, that not more has come out about it since then and >that there has not been more progress made in the supposed saucer >technology. Of course, if it is a secret govt project as he theorized, >maybe it is still on of the gvt best kept secrets. One has to wonder >though why they would be flying their best kept secret over NY and CT >in front of so many people. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Delton #5544 "UFO Echo" > To: Al Pinto Authored at 10:30 on 09-09-88 >Subject: Re: Hudson Valley UFO sighting > >Al -- Sounds like an interesting night. Do you own any telephots >lenses for your nikon? If so, why did you go UFO hunting without >having put the telephoto lense on? Did you take any photos with the >50mm lens? If what you say is true (please don't take that to mean I >don't believe that it is true) I have a hard time understanding how you >were able to simply zip out there and see the darn thing while non of >the "offical" UFO investigation organizations has done the same. I >WANT TO KNOW WHY THE HELL MUFON, APRO, OR WHOEVER IS NOT TAKING THE >TIME TO STAKE OUT THE DAMNED THING WITH SOME ****GOOD**** PHOTO >EQUIPMENT AND PUT AND END TO THE SPECULATION?????????????????????? >Not to sound to harsh about them all, why should anyone take them >seriously if you and apparently others can spot this UFO over and over >again and they can't even get moving on it. The "researchers" have the >time and energy and resources to run around interviewing witnesses, >writing books and attending conventions but apparently none of them >have the time, energy, and inclination to just go out there and "get >the drop" on this thing. If I lived anywhere within 50 miles of this >particular hotspot I know I would be out there with some good photo >equipment and highspeed film trying to get some evidence. I suppose I >can sit back now and be roundly attack for my criticisms. And Al -- do >not take any of this as an attack on you or that I am questioning your >sincerity or veracity in any way. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Speiser #5548 "UFO Echo" > To: Michael Van.meter Authored at 11:44 on 09-09-88 >Subject: Re: Files? > >Hi Michael.... > >I'd like to send files to EVERYONE, but unfortunately, everything here is >now being blanket-copyrighted by ParaNet. We're going commercial; that is, >we are selling advertising on the system. So I have to restrict where the >information goes. Hopefully we will soon have BBSs in Pennsylvania where it >(the information) will be readily available. > >When you say you sent something thru the mail, which mail do you mean? I >haven't gotten anything with your name on it yet... > > >See ya > >Jim >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Speiser #5549 "UFO Echo" > To: Steve Darrenson Authored at 11:47 on 09-09-88 >Subject: Re: The Treasured Secret > >-> But what about some of the other things that are known >-> that we will >-> never find out until later? > >Some more examples: what the Warren Commission really found out about the >JFK Assassination; what the FBI knows about MLK, Jr.; why Nixon ordered the >Watergate Break-in; the identity of Deep Throat (which MUST be known to >some higher-ups in the govt.) etc....The bottom line is, how can you say >for sure how many secrets the government can keep, UNLESS YOU KNOW ALL THE >GOVERNMENT'S SECRETS. > >Jim >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Speiser #5550 "UFO Echo" > To: Pugnose Authored at 11:51 on 09-09-88 >Subject: Re: Communion By Whitley Streiber > >-> We need more Authors such as Imbrogno, Vesco, and Edwards. > >Edwards? Frank Edwards? The one that talked to a horse? To be honest, >"Flying Saucers: Serious Business" WAS a very good book, well-researched. >But it is tainted by the fact that much of Frank's other works were NOT as >well-researched and quite frankly had some gross distortions in them. We >need more books like FS:SB, but I hope they are done by more dependable >authors. > >Jim >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Speiser #5551 "UFO Echo" > To: Pugnose Authored at 11:58 on 09-09-88 >Subject: Re: Update-"Night Seige" > >The photo you mention is discussed more thoroughly in a file available here >at ParaNet Alpha, specifically under "Latest Reports." I understand it was >Dr. Willy Smith of the UNICAT Project that did the testing. I have asked >Phil to elaborate on how Dr. Smith came up with the diameter, especially >since there doesn't seem to be any other reference objects in the frame. By >the way, ParaNet members saw the negative of that photo over two months >ago, before it was released to the public, at a gathering here in >Scottsdale. Its quite interesting, and seems to match up with many sighting >descriptions in the area; however, the photo was allegedly taken in full >view of independent witnesses, that is, people not known to the >photographer. It seems to me that it would be a piece of cake to locate >said witnesses and get them to say on the record that they saw the photo >being taken, and to separately and independently describe the circumstances >under which the photo was taken. If that were done, I would say we would >have our long-awaited smoking gun. I'm having a little trouble figuring out >why this has NOT been done so far. > >Jim >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Steve Gresser #5559 "UFO Echo" > To: Zylex Systems Authored at 16:43 on 09-09-88 >Subject: Re: The Treasured Secret > >About the pseudonym (which IS what that is), I cannot say that it is >not acceptable, because that applies only on ParaNet Alpha (and by my >decision, ParaNet Beta). However, your saying that the UFO phenomenon >has no effect on our immediate future is rather short-sighted. The >possibility of the unification of our planet against a common enemy >holds the potential of ending all wars that are currently in progress >on the Earth. The exploitation of a technology well beyond ours could >assist in feeding every hungry person on the planet. That same >technology could potentially save our atmosphere, and teach us how to >continue to regenerate it. Wild speculation, I know, but still a >possibility, nonetheless. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Steve Gresser #5560 "UFO Echo" > To: Bob Shannahan Authored at 16:43 on 09-09-88 >Subject: Re: The Treasured Secret > >> "Scandals in your past ?" > I'm afraid so . . . I once ripped the tag off of a mattress. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Steve Gresser #5561 "UFO Echo" > To: Steve Darrenson Authored at 16:46 on 09-09-88 >Subject: Re: The Treasured Secret > >There's also the fact that the Israelis are making and plan to use >their own nuclear weapons. Now, that is not really such a bad idea, >considering what they did with the M-1 tank and the F-16 Falcon, but >that doesn't mean that we want them using it on the oil feilds, now >does it? > I agree that you agree that I agree with your agreement with >me. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Steve Gresser #5562 "UFO Echo" > To: Steve Darrenson Authored at 16:49 on 09-09-88 >Subject: Re: The Treasured Secret > >Well, Steve, it's like this - lasers don't work through clouds unless >they are damned powerful lasers, and damned powerful lasers use a >damned large amount of energy. Also, destroying a missile could very >likely make it explode, so you'd have to do it at its appogee (its >highest point in flight), and even the SR-71A BlackBird isn't quite >capable of THAT. It's around 300,000 feet for some missiles (unless I >am again seriously mistaken). Far as I know, the BlackBird continues >to break its own speed records, but its altitude seems to be rather >fixed at about 135,000 or so. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Al Pinto #5704 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Delton Authored at 19:14 on 09-09-88 >Subject: Re: Hudson Valley UFO sighting > >> Do you own any telphoto lenses for your Nikon? > > Yes. A zoom lens that goes from 80-210mm. > >> Why did you go UFO hunting without having put the telephoto lens on? > > Good question. I was at work when I decided to go to NY. I live in CT >and work is about 30 minutes in the opposite direction I was going in. >I left directly from work. Believe me, next time I go I will bring it! > >> Did you take any photos? > > No because the object was too far away for me to get a decent >picture. I might have gotten something at Steve's house but I was too >excited. It didn't cross my mind. > >You raise an important question when you ask why certain UFO >investigator teams aren't out there to see if they can spot this thing >with good photographic equipment. I don't know. There has been times >when they did. Phil Imbrogno told me that they went hunting on a couple >different occasions but were more succesful investigating reports as >they happen. For all I know, they could have had reports and >investigated this incident. I have a message out for Imbrogno. We will >see. I will keep you informed. > >This area is incredible for viewing this thing. The Hudson Valley >should have UFO hunters out at least every Thursday and Sunday. I will >get out there as much as I can. I want to bag a good picture of this >thing. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Al Pinto #5705 "UFO Echo" > To: Richard Helms Authored at 19:17 on 09-09-88 >Subject: Re: Elvis Spotting > >Get off of this echo with this shit! >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Al Pinto #5706 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Speiser Authored at 19:21 on 09-09-88 >Subject: Re: Communion By Whitley Streiber > >I only read UFOs serious Business. I thought it was well researched >also. He talked to horses? Here I was thinking this guy was some >incredible UFO investigator. He was a newsman for Pete's sake! Well >there goes the neighborhood! >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Al Pinto #5707 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Speiser Authored at 19:33 on 09-09-88 >Subject: Re: Update-"Night Seige" > >I don't know why there isn't more investigation being done about it >Maybe because there is so many sightings and too little investigators. >I wrote Phil a message on Jim Bolton's board "Starport", volunteering >my time to investigate for him. He hasn't >logged on to that board for a while now. It seems to me that someone >like Phil should log on to these UFO Echos regularly. I don't >understand it. Is there someone you could hook me up with so that I may >have some cooperation from organizations such as CUFOS, MUFON, etc.? I >plan on going UFO hunting more often now that this has >happened.-d~?~?~?~?~? It would be nice to have some help from the >people who should be investigating these things. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: John Lear #5716 "UFO Echo" > To: Zylex Systems Authored at 21:22 on 09-09-88 >Subject: Adamski > >Good evening, Sir. Could you please give me your references for the >statement that Mr. Adamski made amassive fortune. How much did he >make? Also, would you please define beef jerkey steamer in its >reference to Adamski statements. Thank you. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Speiser #5718 "UFO Echo" > To: Al Pinto Authored at 21:31 on 09-09-88 >Subject: Re: Communion By Whitley Streiber > >Don't get me wrong, he was one of the best Fortean researchers of all time. >But he DID publish a couple of stories that were of dubious veracity. The >"talking horse" story was actually a joke that was put in his last book by >his publisher, Lyle Stuart. Unfortunately, the book went to press just >after Edwards died, and so he didn't have a chance to publicly retract the >story. It remains as the last article in "The Strange World of Frank >Edwards," and to this day it discredits him every time someone reads it who >doesn't know the whole story. > >Jim >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Speiser #5719 "UFO Echo" > To: Al Pinto Authored at 21:32 on 09-09-88 >Subject: Re: Update-"Night Seige" > >-> I wrote Phil a message on Jim Bolton's board >-> "Starport", volunteering my time to investigate for him. > >Starport is no longer a ParaNet board. Best way to reach Phil is via >CompuServe. He checks in here once in a while, but not often enough. I did >pass your home phone to Phil today, though; hope you don't mind. I thought >he might want to call you about that sighting. > >Jim >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Delton #5725 "UFO Echo" > To: Al Pinto Authored at 23:50 on 09-09-88 >Subject: Re: Hudson Valley UFO sighting > >I hope to someday get back to that area to visit relatives. WOuld you >mind sending me a map of just where you saw this thing so if I do make >it back there I will have a good idea of a potential "hotspot"? >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: James Vincent #5754 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Delton Authored at 04:29 on 09-10-88 >Subject: Re: Hudson Valley UFO sighting > >Jim, I can't agree more. I, like you, would love to be even close to a >"hotspot." I'd have so many cameras, including high speed super-8 film >(which I have access to, and is quite good...don't let the title "super >8" throw you off...) that'd be silly. If this is indeed happening, >which I have no reason to doubt, why aren't the "pros" mucking about in >the field, camping out, etc., trying to obtain as much evidence as is >possible? I wish it could be true, but is anyone doing it? Sheesh. I >guess I can only be exasperated, as I can't directly do anything about >it. > >Be seeing you... > >-=James >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Speiser #5925 "UFO Echo" > To: James Vincent Authored at 23:13 on 09-10-88 >Subject: Re: Hudson Valley UFO sighting > >This is one of the things that bothers me about the Gulf Breeze thingy, >too. 135 witnesses, 5 photographers, network film crews scrambling over >each other, and all we have are Ed's Japanese Lanterns. Still, its one >bizarre case.... > >Jim >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Speiser #5926 "UFO Echo" > To: Zylex Systems Authored at 23:22 on 09-10-88 >Subject: Re: The Treasured Secret > >-> appealing to suckers around the world on his photos and >-> lectures which turned out to be a beef-jerkey steamer. > >I think the photo you are referring to was not circulated by Adamski, but >by Orfeo Angulucci. I could be wrong, but I AM certain it appeared in >Saucer News in the mid-fifties. I don't think the Adamski "craft" has been >positively identified yet, but my best guess is that its one of those lamps >that hangs over pool tables in old Texas pool halls. > >Jim >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- 602-837-0062 3/12/24 (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: James Vincent #5945 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Speiser Authored at 03:33 on 09-11-88 >Subject: Re: Hudson Valley UFO sighting > >Bizzare, or, rare? When's the last time we've had this much exitement? > >Be seeing you... > >-=James >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Mark Browning #6363 "UFO Echo" > To: Everybody Authored at 23:50 on 09-10-88 >Subject: Grand Conspiracy Theory > >While Stephen Hawking wastes his time and Cambridge's money on the >Grand Unification Theory or whatever the heck he calls it, I am slavishly >pursuing the Grand Conspiracy Theory with little recognition or finance. >It is my purpose to integrate all of the various conspiracy threads >(i.e. UFOs, Elvis is alive, JFK, RFK, MLK assasinations, Monuments > >of Mars, Bigfoot, Atlantis, Jim Morrison is alive, et cetera, et alia, >ad nauseum) and to create a single conspiracy of such magnitude and >import that the entire earth will simply collapse upon itself in a >gasp of revelatory discovery. > > >--- > * Origin: Artificial Insanity: WOCin' from the Delta to the DMZ (Opus 1:280/306) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Mark Browning #6364 "UFO Echo" > To: Joe Holland Authored at 00:04 on 09-11-88 >Subject: Black Helis? > >Could you fill us (or at least me) in on these dreaded black choppers? >Air Wolf gone bad? > > >--- > * Origin: Artificial Insanity: WOCin' from the Delta to the DMZ (Opus 1:280/306) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Speiser #6406 "UFO Echo" > To: Mark Browning Authored at 22:06 on 09-13-88 >Subject: Re: Grand Conspiracy Theory > >Ya left out "Who Framed Roger Rabbit"... >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Al Pinto #6667 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Speiser Authored at 20:55 on 09-14-88 >Subject: The Meiers/Pleiades case > >Dear Jim, > > I would like to open a dialogue with you on Billy Meiers case. I >have read some things on it and am quite frankly, very intriqued. I >find it amazing that with all the so called evidence that was provided, >this case can not be proved to be true or false. There is a lot to >this. More than what the UFO community cares to admit. > > Let's start off by talking about Mr. Meiers. He claims to have >contact, or had contact, with a space faring civilization that comes >from the planet Erros in the Pleiades star cluster. He has said that he >has been in contact with them since he was a small boy. They told him >that he was chosen to give a message to the world about the existence >of them and other civilizations in the Universe. Tough job but, I guess >someone has to do it. > > This sounds pretty hoaky but, no one who has met him denies that >what he saying is true. Emphasis on met him. there are many in the UFO >community, notably Stanton Freidman, who thinks he is a fraud but, to >my knowledge, Stanton has never met the guy. Many people wanted to >prove Meier to be hoax and even went as far as traveling to Switzerland >to do it. They could find no way to disprove what he was saying. Most >of the time, they came back bewildered and astonished by what they have >found. > > What do you think? BTW, anyone is welcome to jump into this >conversation. I hope you don't mind, Jim. > > Al >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Zylex Systems #6684 "UFO Echo" > To: Steve Gresser Authored at 22:56 on 09-11-88 >Subject: Re: The Treasured Secret > > >Steve, we are not a pseudonym! While that name of ours is about the only >way you can correspond since my local net only recognizes that "address" >you may feel free to chat at a personal level.... even though your last >name is a gross mis-spelling of my own . The name on this end is >Dick Grasser. I am not adverse to one-on-one even though you have to >contend with the collective genius of many decades of experience with >various "agencies" of our government.... I AM pulling your leg a bit as >always. > >In respects to the subject at hand.... No amount of intervention by > >caltsiders" is going to consolidate our collective >races/ethnics/politicals irrespective of their incline to resolve our own >planetary problems. Fur instance (fur is on purpose); the rubbish that >is going on in Burma today has radically modified my own business since I >deal with that government via USAID and a few others. > >What you are suggesting is a very off-handed dismissal of all the worlds >problems. Sorry that wont fly! > >War, famine, hunger, etc, etc will not be solved by some >extra-terrestrial contact. Quite frankly; our only hope is to get the > >hell off this little blue planet of ours, and take our polution >elsewhere. Maybe to New York City which sorely deserves all our garbage! > > >--- > * Origin: Flower City Central HST, Rochester,NY (Opus 1:260/204) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Zylex Systems #6685 "UFO Echo" > To: John Lear Authored at 23:12 on 09-11-88 >Subject: adamski > > >John, the reference to Adamski came from an article in the New York Times >about a year or so ago. I found it interesting since I talked with him >when he visited Detroit back in the eary 60's. He made mucho bucks on his > >tour (sort of a Billy Graham of the UFO ). He was a Phony then and >always will be! Quite frankly, George was a darn good salesman not >unlike the Bakers of PTL infamy. How much he made? I have no idea, >except that the guy stayed at the Sheraton in Detroit; cash in advance. > >In respects to the beef-jerkey machine; well, what can I say. Thats what >the FED's came up with, and quite frankly it DOES match. The design is >accurate! > > >--- > * Origin: Flower City Central HST, Rochester,NY (Opus 1:260/204) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Pleiades #6686 "UFO Echo" > To: Al Pinto Authored at 13:22 on 09-12-88 >Subject: Re: Hudson Valley UFO sighting > > >Im sorry under present present regulator statutes we (the govt) have no >comment on the matter since it is critical to National Security..... > >And have no orders to release any significant information on this subject >or others.. > >Im afraid this is all youll get from the present condition of our >government that is starting more and more to look like the socioty in >George Orwells "1984" > >I believe they exist because of you and other incedents and the only >comforting you will find is trying to see more and talk to others about >till the truth is found.. > > Sincerely Pleiades > > >--- > * Origin: Heartbreak Hotel, WOC'in and Roll'in! 203-270-1913 (Opus 1:141/790) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Pleiades #6687 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Delton Authored at 13:31 on 09-12-88 >Subject: Re: Hudson Valley UFO sighting > > >You think they" the investigators" are being influenced by the Government >or someother "Organization" > >...E=mc^2 > > >--- > * Origin: Heartbreak Hotel, WOC'in and Roll'in! 203-270-1913 (Opus 1:141/790) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Al Pinto #6688 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Delton Authored at 11:16 on 09-12-88 >Subject: Re: Hudson Valley UFO sighting > > >I'll see what I could do. Better yet; I'll take you there myself. Let me >know when you are coming, and we could make arrangements. > > > >Later, > > > >Al > > >--- > * Origin: Heartbreak Hotel, WOC'in and Roll'in! 203-270-1913 (Opus 1:141/790) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Al Pinto #6689 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Delton Authored at 11:18 on 09-12-88 >Subject: Re: Renato Vesco > > >Yeah I know. It is tough to swallow but so is any other theory. How do >you know that somebody hasn't been working on it? If any gov't or >organization has these type of craft, I think you could bet your bottom >dollar that it will be kept more secret now than ever before. I can't say >why it would be just floating over the Hudson Valley if they wanted to >keep it secret unless they want to let the public preview it before any >info is released regarding it's existence. That sounds pretty far out, >huh? > > > >After seeing this thing on 9/9/88, I'm convinced it has no regard! It >didn't care who saw it. It was in no hurry to go anywhere. I viewed it >for over a half hour! It did look very different from anything we could >manufacture here on Earth that I know about anyway. It was HUGE! > > > >Al > > >--- > * Origin: Heartbreak Hotel, WOC'in and Roll'in! 203-270-1913 (Opus 1:141/790) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Al Pinto #6690 "UFO Echo" > To: James Vincent Authored at 11:28 on 09-12-88 >Subject: Re: Hudson Valley UFO sighting > > >It is nice that you have access to such equipment. I'm working with >Imbrogno and I asked him if he had any of this equipment. He said that he >had asked CUFOS to help fund the exact kind of expedition you are talking >about and was flatly denied. He and his organization are independent now. >Kind of makes you wonder, huh? > > > >As far as me taking pictures; When I first saw this thing I thought that >it was too far away for the picture to come out. When we moved to get >closer, I got out of the truck and saw it within a half mile of me, and >as this was my first GOOD sighting, I was in shock. The only time I >thought of taking a picture was after it disapeared behind trees. Then it >never re-appeared. I plan on going out more often now that this has >happened. I will go prepared. I still do not have access to a good movie >camera but I am working on it. > > > >Al > > >--- > * Origin: Heartbreak Hotel, WOC'in and Roll'in! 203-270-1913 (Opus 1:141/790) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Al Pinto #6691 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Speiser Authored at 11:02 on 09-12-88 >Subject: Frank Edwards > > >Yes. I thought he was a brilliant researcher myself and I also like the >factual way he went about reporting. He was constantl{y under scrutiny >and there were many people who would have loved to discredit him. He had >a weekly TV show on back in the late 50's and early 60's. It was >removed from the air because, according to Frank, the US gov't didn't >like the headway he was making with it. He was finding out too much. So >the gov't told the station to remove him from the air or they will pull >their business away from some of their sponsors. This got the sponsors >nervous and they also wanted him off the air. > > > >Thanks for the input. > > > >Al > > > >BTW I changed my handle back to my name again. It was getting too >confusing. Just use my name too leave messages to me from now on. > > >--- > * Origin: Heartbreak Hotel, WOC'in and Roll'in! 203-270-1913 (Opus 1:141/790) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Al Pinto #6692 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Speiser Authored at 11:10 on 09-12-88 >Subject: I] > > >He called me and thanks. We are now investigating. BTW, it hit the papers >on Friday 9/9! Not something that I released, but independant witnesses! >Totally incredible! > > > >Al > > >--- > * Origin: Heartbreak Hotel, WOC'in and Roll'in! 203-270-1913 (Opus 1:141/790) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Steve Darrenson #6693 "UFO Echo" > To: Steve Gresser Authored at 12:42 on 09-13-88 >Subject: Re: The Treasured Secret > >-> There's also the fact that the Israelis are making and plan >-> to use their own nuclear weapons. Now, that is not really >-> such a bad idea, considering what they did with the M-1 >-> tank and the F-16 Falcon, but that doesn't mean that we >-> want them using it on the oil feilds, now does it? > >I think the Isreali's are smart enough, and have such low oil production >themselves to realize that destroying the oil fields destroys Isreal also. >Now as far as Iranian cities and the such, NUKE'EM. > >And I agree with you on that you agree with what I agreed to during an >agreeable statement. Agreed? >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: Steve's Madhouse BBS. (913)894-9387 <==== New Number (1:280/11) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Steve Darrenson #6694 "UFO Echo" > To: Steve Gresser Authored at 12:47 on 09-13-88 >Subject: Re: The Treasured Secret > >You don't exactly have to destroy the missile to make it operationless. >If you use a laser to melt the wiring and mechanisms inside the missile, >then it shalln't work also. That was the crux of the star wars plan, was >not destroying them, but disabling them. It takes much less power for a >thin laser to penetrate the armour then melt everything then it does for a >large laser to destroy it, and with computer controll, it would me only a >matter of seconds to disarm a missile in that fashion. Also, >unfortunately, the soviets have thought of a neat idea and are close to >having it finished. They are going to try to bombard a missile with noise. >Electronic noise to be more exact. The philosophy behind this is that with >enough dampening, you can eventually cause the missile to become so screwed >up in internal circuitry that the auto shut turns on and the missile >explodes where it's at. These are land based weapons the soviets are >developing. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: Steve's Madhouse BBS. (913)894-9387 <==== New Number (1:280/11) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Steve Darrenson #6695 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Speiser Authored at 12:52 on 09-13-88 >Subject: Re: The Treasured Secret > >-> Some more examples: what the Warren Commission really found >-> out about the >-> JFK Assassination; what the FBI knows about MLK, Jr.; why >-> Nixon ordered the >-> Watergate Break-in; the identity of Deep Throat (which MUST > >What did they find? Was it truthful or could it also have been government >coverup? The process is on going. The public WILL believe whatever they >hear from the news, so the game our government plays is how to tell the >news. Everything we hear, was meant to be heard. The mystic stealth >bomber explodes during a test flight. How did the press hear of it, if it >were over restricted military air space on restricted military channels? >The government told them to somehow, or in someway either further the >program, or more likely a democrat, peace loving moron told the press to >further his end. We are caught up between it. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: Steve's Madhouse BBS. (913)894-9387 <==== New Number (1:280/11) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Al Pinto #6696 "UFO Echo" > To: Pleiades Authored at 16:13 on 09-13-88 >Subject: Re: Hudson Valley UFO sighting > > >Your message is very interesting as it appears that you are working for >the "gov't". Is that the US gov't? If you do work for the gov't then why >are you not speaking to me privately? You just admitted that UFO's exist! >I believe the gov't does not hold this point of view. > > > >Al > > >--- > * Origin: Heartbreak Hotel, WOC'in and Roll'in! 203-270-1913 (Opus 1:141/790) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Al Pinto #6697 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Delton Authored at 16:21 on 09-13-88 >Subject: Re: Hudson Valley UFO sighting > > >Hey Jim, > > > > This guy, Pleiades, gives me the creeps. It is interesting that he >uses a handle which is perhaps the most interesting case in UFO history. > >--- > * Origin: Heartbreak Hotel, WOC'in and Roll'in! 203-270-1913 (Opus 1:141/790) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Al Pinto #6698 "UFO Echo" > To: Pleiades Authored at 16:37 on 09-13-88 >Subject: Who are you? > > >Who are you? Are you a U.S. gov't agent? I am having a hard time with >your message as it seems that: > > 1. I don't realyy believe you work for the "gov't". > > 2. If you do, you are not very happy about the way that they are > > handling the UFO situation. > > 3. You just publically admitted that UFO's exist. I think the U.S. > > gov't says otherwise, at least publically, anyway. > > 4. You say to keep looking for the truth. Our gov't does not want us > > to know the truth because of as you say, National Security. > >If you are someone just faking all of this, please let us know now. You >can send me private communication by this address: > > Al Pinto > > c/o Phil Imbrogno > > P.O. Box 4218 > > Greenwich, CT 06830 > >If I don't here from you, I know you are a fake, and will not take any of >your messages seriously in the future. > > > >Sincerely, > >al > > >--- > * Origin: Heartbreak Hotel, WOC'in and Roll'in! 203-270-1913 (Opus 1:141/790) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: James Vincent #6700 "UFO Echo" > To: Al Pinto Authored at 01:07 on 09-15-88 >Subject: Re: Hudson Valley UFO sighting > >Yeah, cameras. I've got access to a Canon super-8 camera, that has high >speed capability. I'm not sure of the frame rate right now, as it's >been a while since I've used it. 160 speed film at high speeds at night >is amazing. It picks up the littlest things (in my experience...other >filmmakers may choose to differ). It'd be great for UFO footage. Well, >get out there and bring us in some good stuff! > >Be seeing you... > >-=James >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: James Vincent #6702 "UFO Echo" > To: Al Pinto Authored at 01:36 on 09-15-88 >Subject: Re: The Meiers/Pleiades case > >Al, James here. I've got a certain view on this Meier thingy. I'll only >say this... > >I, by hobby, am a filmmaker. In my teens I made many science fiction >films, and having no motion control equipment for my Super-8, I had to >use strings for my ships. I have also seen the Meier films, supposedly >taken by this half-wit-wacko-weirdo-amputee (Meier). I must say, I've >NEVER seen such a BAD hoax. I cannot find a reason to believe that >metal discs from space, controlled by intelligent beings, would fly in >a circle over a tree. If these jackoff aliens wanted Billy to bring a >message to the world, don't you think, as to prove it, they might >manuever in a way impossible for a terrestrial craft? The only rational >answer can be "yes." I say "flew in a circle," but what I must stress >is that it is a circle the diameter of which is limited by the string >holding the disc. When something swings back and forth, wobbles, and >basically looks like a plate on a wire, you MUST conclude that the >person perpertrating such a bad hoax is completely mad, as well as >insane. Anyway, I know you seek information, but once you see these >films any "pro" information is shattered utterly. > >Be seeing you... > >-=James > >P.S. My films look a lot better. In fact, I'm thinking of becoming the >"new" Billy Meier. You see, there's this little planet called Mootle. >Yes, Mootle. Anyway, this race of females wants me to bring new >fashions to men of Earth, as well as... > >P.P.S. All of Meier's films are the same. Just different locales. >Strangely, in most of the shots, a wobbling tree branch is placed in >the fore-ground to give the plate on a wire the illusion of being in >the distance. Damn stupid stuff, this. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: James Vincent #6703 "UFO Echo" > To: Steve Darrenson Authored at 01:42 on 09-15-88 >Subject: Re: The Treasured Secret > >Why not coat the missile with mirrors? Or can a laser of such intensity >burn through such a thing? > >Be seeing you... > >-=James >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: James Vincent #6704 "UFO Echo" > To: Al Pinto Authored at 01:44 on 09-15-88 >Subject: Re: Hudson Valley UFO sighting > >All, I have to differ. This Meier freak is NOT the most interesting >case in UFO history. The most embarrassing, yes, but NOT the most >interesting! > >Be seeing you... > >-=James >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Speiser #6728 "UFO Echo" > To: Al Pinto Authored at 08:34 on 09-15-88 >Subject: Re: The Meiers/Pleiades case > >-> civilization that comes from the planet Erros in the >-> Pleiades star cluster. > >Al, this case seems to be like my nitwit cousin from the Bronx. It keeps >coming back to haunt me. The first tipoff is "planet Erros in the >Pleiades." Our astronomers tell us the Pleiades is MUCH too young to >have sprouted actual solar systems; right now its more like a nebula. > >There is a ton of negative information on the Meier case that just isn't >getting out there. I won't repeat it all here, but I CAN advise you to >watch the October 14th documentary for some more info. > >Jim >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Steve Gresser #6733 "UFO Echo" > To: Zylex Systems Authored at 09:47 on 09-15-88 >Subject: Re: The Treasured Secret > >Sorry, Mr. (ahh . . .) Grasser (that's a little too close for me!), I >didn't mean to pass off the worlds problems, only to offer a potential >perspective on what could happen. Obviously, the reason that the >phenomenon is happening is as elusive as its source. However, I think >(those famous words) that blasting away from our pretty blue cesspool >is as ineffective as assuming that all will be resolved by our >benevolant space brethren. To turn and face our problems, that is the >only way to resolve them. Anyway, we've strayed away from the subject >at hand. My origional point was that the phenomenon is potentially >very, very important, and cannot (and SHOULD not) be ignored. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Steve Gresser #6734 "UFO Echo" > To: Steve Darrenson Authored at 09:47 on 09-15-88 >Subject: Re: The Treasured Secret > >Agreed. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Steve Gresser #6735 "UFO Echo" > To: Steve Darrenson Authored at 09:50 on 09-15-88 >Subject: Re: The Treasured Secret > >Fascinating, but with the experience that I have had with the Air Force >(the US Air Force, to be specific), I know that EMP "noise" can already >be defeated. Our (soon to become extinct) INF forces are impervious to >this type of noise. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Delton #6750 "UFO Echo" > To: Pleiades Authored at 13:38 on 09-15-88 >Subject: Re: Hudson Valley UFO sighting > >If one is to speculate, one could speculate that rather then not do >anything and let someone really blow the lid off; the gvt has decided >to supply the "investigators" so that they wouldn't investigate too far >or find out too much. Keep in mind that others have suggested that >Phil Klass and Bill Moore may be gvt controlled to similar ends. The >problem is, where does such speculation end? Everyone could be a >potential gvt "plant". I don't know of any evidence that has been >unearthed that has shown that anyone is however. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Delton #6751 "UFO Echo" > To: Al Pinto Authored at 13:41 on 09-15-88 >Subject: Re: Hudson Valley UFO sighting > >I will be about a year before I get back in that neck of the woods. My >sister lives near Rochester and other relatives live in Albany so as >long as I will be so "close" I plan on at least spending one night >in the Hudson Valley area. Maybe I'll get lucky. If you don't mind >leaving your Phone number I will hang onto it for when I am in a >position to trek out to the Valley. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Delton #6752 "UFO Echo" > To: Al Pinto Authored at 13:46 on 09-15-88 >Subject: Re: Renato Vesco > >The whole thing is just crazy! I still cannot fathom how the gvt can >be so apparently disinterested; ditto for the media. Assuming that the >gvt is not disinterested, they could surely track the thing from one of >their many satelites, including at the very least still photos. They >have the capablilty of resolution of at least down to about 5 feet in >the day. I would assume they could do something at night also. Do you >have any plans to go back again soon? >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Delton #6755 "UFO Echo" > To: Al Pinto Authored at 14:25 on 09-15-88 >Subject: I] > (Private) > >Any chance of you sending a copy of the article in the local paper? >You may find it hard to believe but it wasn't in our papers! We hear >about all these things but never get to see it in print. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Zylex Systems #6915 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Speiser Authored at 02:13 on 09-14-88 >Subject: George Adamski.. > > >No, as I recall it was investigated by the "Feds" and found that he had >that steamer thing in his garage all these years. Its an antique to >start off with even back then. Of course could be wrong... In any case > >it was about as alien as beef-jerkey . > > >--- > * Origin: Flower City Central HST, Rochester,NY (Opus 1:260/204) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Randy Rubis #6916 "UFO Echo" > To: Steve Gresser Authored at 12:50 on 09-14-88 >Subject: Re: The Treasured Secret > >Steve, > Yes, you are seriously mistaken AGAIN. The SR-71 Blackbird has a >Service ceiling of 50,000ft +/- 10,000ft. Maximum Speed of Mach 1.8 >+/- .25. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: Tony's Corner (did ya see that?!?) Warren, MI. (1:120/13) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Randy Rubis #6917 "UFO Echo" > To: Steve Gresser Authored at 12:54 on 09-14-88 >Subject: Re: The Treasured Secret > >Steve, > The Israelis have had nuclear weapons for over 5 years. I don't >believe that it is such a good idea but I don't think the oil fields >are in any danger, at least not from the Israelis. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: Tony's Corner (did ya see that?!?) Warren, MI. (1:120/13) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: John Lear #7307 "UFO Echo" > To: Zylex Systems Authored at 12:51 on 09-18-88 >Subject: Re: adamski > >Some aspects of Adamskis claims were real including some of the photos >and some of his claims of meetings with aliens. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Al Pinto #7475 "UFO Echo" > To: James Vincent Authored at 19:53 on 09-16-88 >Subject: Re: Hudson Valley UFO sighting > > >We had a whole crew out there on Thursday, 9/15/88. We had pretty much >the whole valley covered from Fairfield County, CT to Ulster county, NY. >Phil Imbrogno was in Danbury; I and Fred Dennis were in Ulster County and >others were in Middletown, NY and on Route 84. We formed a triangle. Phil >saw something strange headed west but couldn't say exactly what it was. >We were in contact by CB throughout the night. > >Fred and an associate devised a interesting set of strobe lights. The >consist of 5 lights, all different colors that blink at an incredible >100,000 candlepower! The idea behind them is that past reports stated >that when you shine a light on the object, it attracts it. Hope we get a >chance to find out. We go out to spot this thing on Thursday evenings >because over 80% of the sightings took place on a Thursday eve. We still >don't have access to a movie camera like yours, Jim, so get your but out >here when you can! > > > > Al > > >--- > * Origin: Heartbreak Hotel, WOC'in and Roll'in! 203-270-1913 (Opus 1:141/790) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Al Pinto #7476 "UFO Echo" > To: James Vincent Authored at 20:07 on 09-16-88 >Subject: Re: The Meiers/Pleiades case > > >I still have trouble figuring out how a guy with one arm could do these >"fakes" by himself. You have to keep in mind that he was constantly being >observed by people who wanted to discredit him. Jim, I think the story is >far out too but, anyone who actually went over to Switzerland to try and >prove that this case was a hoax came back quite dissatisfied. They >couldn't do it! As far as this object swinging and wobbling, what you >said is not true. This craft, or whatever, when it went from moving to >halt was just motionless. There was no swinging or wobbling. Just dead in >the sky. As a matter of fact, you see the trees swaying in the wind. If >this was something on a string, it should wobble but it didn't. As far as >basically only one craft being photographed, that again is untrue. There >were about six different types photographed and another unmanned remote >type that accompanied them. I don't know where you are getting your info >from but... May I suggest a book by Gary Kinder called "Light Years"? I >like his book because he tries to present both sides; Hoax or no hoax >that is the question... I still need to know more and can't dismiss this >case as a hoax without more data. It is just to incredible. > > > > Al > >P.S. Also keep in mind that Billy Meiers had a 6th grade education and >was saying things about technology that were very advanced. He also was >very poor. > > > >P.S.S. Another thing about the photos. They were called the most >incredible pictures taken of a UFO and tests revealed that if this was >a hoax that it would have to be done by someone who knows what they are >doing. It would also take a lot of expensive equipment to produce this >"hoax" all of which Bill Meiers was not capable of. > > >--- > * Origin: Heartbreak Hotel, WOC'in and Roll'in! 203-270-1913 (Opus 1:141/790) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Al Pinto #7477 "UFO Echo" > To: James Vincent Authored at 20:29 on 09-16-88 >Subject: Meier/Pleiades case > > >Again, if you really researched this case, you should at least be >intriqued. I don't understand how people can make judgements on this case >without looking HARD at both sides of this story. Yes it is VERY far out >but, isn't the whole UFO phenomenon far out as well? Let's get real crazy >here and assume that this case is for real. One of the Pleiadians, a >woman by the name of Semjase mentions many things to Meier that are way >beyond anything he could possibly know. For instance she was talking to >him about the propulsion system that is used on these craft and said >something to the effect that there are two stages; the first stage takes >the craft to light speed and the second stage kicks in as soon as light >velocity is reached. I wish I had the exact qoute in front of me but it >was very technical. She even mentioned to him that we were working with >two principles that were the basis for there propulsion but were far >from the finished product. She mentioned tachyons! This was in 1978 or >so, and tachyons were a completely newfound thing that only scientists >knew about or had any interest in. > > > >I don't know... > > > > Al > > >--- > * Origin: Heartbreak Hotel, WOC'in and Roll'in! 203-270-1913 (Opus 1:141/790) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Delton #7494 "UFO Echo" > To: Al Pinto Authored at 12:45 on 09-19-88 >Subject: Re: Meier/Pleiades case > >My 6th grade teacher taught us Nuclear Physics so I don't know that >"just having a 6th grade educatin" is something t sneeze at. >Are you aware that one of Meiers photos came out of a Sears Catalogue? >Also, don't understand the idea that He was watched constantly. From >my reading of "light years" I got the impression that he often >disappeared for hours at a time and no one knew where he was. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Delton #7495 "UFO Echo" > To: Al Pinto Authored at 12:48 on 09-19-88 >Subject: Re: Meier/Pleiades case > >PS -- I beleive I had heard of Tachyons well before 1978. Are there >any nuclear physicists out there who can pin down the date of discover? >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Delton #7496 "UFO Echo" > To: All Authored at 12:50 on 09-19-88 >Subject: Comments???? > >A few thoughts that I throw out for anyone to comment on.... >** Premise: Photo's can be analyzed to prove or disprove whether >they are fake pictures of UFO's. >>> Question: Has any UFO investigative organization undertaken >the work necessary to prove this premise thru double-blind >tests? If so, what were the results; If not, why not? >** Premise: Witholding of information on "hot" cases is necessary >so that those witheld items can be used to verify and cross-check >either later cases or others who claim to have info on the same case. >>> Question: Isn't this counterproductive from two standpoints? >1) It reduces the knowledge base of all other interested >investigators making the overall UFO community less effective. >2) It results in loss of potentially valuable data since when >the case isn't "hot" anymore, the withheld data may never come >out; the original investigators having moved on to the latest >"hot" case. >** Premise: The UFO community is too closely associated with "New >Age" people and things. >>> Question: Would the UFO community be more effective and be taken >more seriously if they were to make a more concerted effort to >disassociate themselves from spoon-bending, crystal stroking and the >like? Do UFO books really belong in the NEW AGE section of the >bookstore? >>> Follow-up: How best to do this? >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Steve Darrenson #7568 "UFO Echo" > To: Randy Rubis Authored at 10:02 on 09-17-88 >Subject: Re: The Treasured Secret > >-> Service ceiling of 50,000ft +/- 10,000ft. Maximum Speed of >-> Mach 1.8 > >Guess again, the max. speed released by the government is Mach 3+. The >plane goes so fast, no human pilot can survive it's max. speed. I would be >interested in where you got your information from. Mine is from Military >Airplanes. I'll get the author and publisher if you want it. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: Steve's Madhouse BBS. (913)894-9387 <==== New Number (1:280/11) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: James Vincent #7571 "UFO Echo" > To: Al Pinto Authored at 23:25 on 09-19-88 >Subject: Re: Hudson Valley UFO sighting > >Right. Me. Get my butt out there. Are you kidding? I have the money, >yes, but the will to forego an education that has already been two >years postponed is something I don't have. However, this December I may >do some extensive traveling, and I have the feeling I WILL indeed be in >the state of New York. I'll let you know. So, go get some pictures. >And, if the strobes are a lure, and you're the "fisherman" are you >gonna let the fish go once you catch it? > >Be seeing you... > >-=James > >P.S. I hope you have a very big net. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: James Vincent #7572 "UFO Echo" > To: Al Pinto Authored at 23:33 on 09-19-88 >Subject: Re: The Meiers/Pleiades case > >Al, I get my infornmation from the pathetic (apparently) documentary >done on the damn silly case. I saw these films, and was so insulted at >their amateuresque presentation, BAD, BAD, BAD, BAD cuts when the UFO's >supposedly "disappeared" that I am forced to believe it was a hoax. >Have you actually seen the films? Can you honestly tell me these damn >annoying UFO's don't wobble? And the bad cuts when theu disappear? >That's how it's done in bad amateur space movies. You shoot the alien, >he falls to the ground, you stop the camera, the alien gets up, and you >start the camera again. Whammo! The alien disintegrated! Wow! And >that's how these films were. The fact that the tree branch so >sickeningly "in frame" jumps several inches when the UFO's vanish is >the key. This case is silly. It sounds like the plot to a coloring >book. And it looks even worse. Also, I think the book Light Years is >quite bad. I actually bought the thing. I have since thrown it away. > >Be seeing you... > >-=James > >P.S. If I ever do get to your area with my camera, I'l show you my >films of Billy's ships. Yes, I've seen them too. I just talked to Billy >last night on the phone. He's my buddy. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: James Vincent #7573 "UFO Echo" > To: Al Pinto Authored at 23:38 on 09-19-88 >Subject: Re: Meier/Pleiades case > >Al, first, the issue of tachyons were profusely memtioned in scientific >journals of the time. These journals aren't only available to >scientists you know. Secondly, it's a hoax. I'm actually insulted by >the films of these UFO's. I've been making films for ten years now, and >as a filmmaker I can tell you these things were either an image on >glass being moved, or on a string. And I read Light Years. I laughed >through the whole thing...in fact I laughed all the way to the garbage >disposal, where it doesn't take light years to destroy something. > >Be seeing you... > >-=James > >P.S. Sorry about that bad analogy, just now. I just felt like typing >it. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: James Vincent #7575 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Delton Authored at 00:11 on 09-20-88 >Subject: Re: Comments???? > >Jim, apparently the bookstore at Fashion Square (Walden's) has all it's >UFO books in the Science section. I guess we have a UFOligist working >there or something. The real wacko books are sequestered in the New Age >area, but all the more or less respectable authors are in the Science >section. That's a point in our direction, anyway. > >Be seeing you... > >-=James >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Steve Gresser #7599 "UFO Echo" > To: Randy Rubis Authored at 03:38 on 09-20-88 >Subject: Re: The Treasured Secret > >Well, Randy, I offered the potential for being mistaken when I posted >the message. As it is, however, I know for a fact that not only the >service ceiling but the speed that you posted are WAY out of date. The >'71 continues to break its own records every time it tries. Its posted >speed, as a matter of fact, has been raised above Mach 3, and is >rumored to be above Mach 4. I am certain that the service ceiling of >the craft is above 70,000 feet, but I can't really tell you the source >of that one - would get a friend in trouble. So, while I admit to NOT >knowing the exact numbers, I know that you stand (again?) corrected. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Bill Cooper #7707 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Delton Authored at 17:14 on 09-20-88 >Subject: Re: Comments???? > >I agree that info should never be withheld and nothing should ever be >deleted from or changed in documents that are released or made public >by researchers like some do. >Bill >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Delton #7722 "UFO Echo" > To: Bill Cooper Authored at 21:44 on 09-20-88 >Subject: Re: Comments???? > (Private) > >Any further repercussions? >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Speiser #7842 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Delton Authored at 12:17 on 09-21-88 >Subject: Re: Meier/Pleiades case > >I'm quite sure I, too, heard of tachyons back in the early 70's. They >have never been "discovered", Jim, they are, as far as I know, a >postulate at this stage. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Speiser #7843 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Delton Authored at 12:43 on 09-21-88 >Subject: Re: Comments???? > >-> ** Premise: Photo's can be analyzed to prove or disprove >-> whether >-> they are fake pictures of UFO's. > >These days its much harder to come up with anything conclusive, because of >the sophistication with which computers can diddle with the photographic >data. Its the analyses of older photos, such as from the 1950's, that >intrigues me. The Trent/McMinnville photos were thoroughly analyzed by Dr. >Maccabee, and that analysis showed it to be highly anomalous. I've never >seen a valid response to Bruce's work. > >-> >> Question: Has any UFO investigative organization >-> undertaken >-> the work necessary to prove this premise thru double-blind >-> tests? If so, what were the results; If not, why not? > >What would be your predicted outcome? How can you test for a "real" UFO >photo, if you don't know what a "real" UFO is? > >-> 2) It results in loss of potentially valuable data since >-> when >-> the case isn't "hot" anymore, the withheld data may never >-> come >-> out; the original investigators having moved on to the >-> latest >-> "hot" case. > >Basically I agree that "leads that never check out" can be significant, but >only in a minor sense. They can show us what the phenomenon is NOT about. >As to whether such info should always be made public, I disagree. Suppose >Bill Moore had NEVER found any correlations on the MJ-12 document. Should >he have released the document anyway, saying "this turned out to be bogus?" >You know some UFO nuts would pick it up and distribute it as real anyway, >doing untold damage to the field. I think the only negative info that NEEDS >to be publicized are the direct contradictions, and things that directly >mitigate positive claims. Mere dead ends are not of vital importance; there >are plenty of those in EVERY field. > > >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Speiser #7844 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Delton Authored at 12:49 on 09-21-88 >Subject: Re: Comments???? > >-> >> Question: Would the UFO community be more effective and >-> be taken >-> more seriously if they were to make a more concerted effort >-> to >-> disassociate themselves from spoon-bending, crystal >-> stroking and the >-> like? Do UFO books really belong in the NEW AGE section of >-> the bookstore? > >1) Yes. >2) No. > >-> >> Follow-up: How best to do this? > >To tell you the truth, I don't think its our responsibility to do that any >more. That job belongs to the major media. They are the ones who have >painted us into that corner in the first place, by failing to cast a >suitably discerning journalistic eye on our activities and our over-all >make-up. Anyone who spends any time in this field sees that there are two >very distinct approaches to the subject, the Empirical and the Spiritual. >There are those who subscribe to both, using an empirical approach to try >and validate their spiritual orientation, but basically, I don't think its >hard to tell the difference between Shirley MacLaine and Dr. Bruce >Maccabee, do you? > > Jim >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Speiser #7845 "UFO Echo" > To: Steve Darrenson Authored at 12:51 on 09-21-88 >Subject: Re: The Treasured Secret > >-> The plane goes so fast, no human pilot can survive it's max. >-> speed. > >Could you please clarify? You WERE referring to acceleration, and not raw >speed, weren't you? (Please say you were). > > --Jim >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Delton #7890 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Speiser Authored at 14:29 on 09-21-88 >Subject: Re: Comments???? > (Deleted) > >A test of photo's to see if UFO's can truely be identified thru >analysis of Photos >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Delton #7890 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Speiser Authored at 15:26 on 09-21-88 >Subject: Re: Comments???? > >I may be able to tell the diff between Bruce Maccabee and Shirley >MacLaine but can the media? While it may be true that the media is the >one who needs to get with the program, unless "we" take positive steps >to help that along it just ain't gonna happen. If the UFO community is >percieved to take some recent theories seriously without being able to >present compelling documnetation to back them up, why in the world >should we expect the media to change their opinons? >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Delton #7891 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Speiser Authored at 15:35 on 09-21-88 >Subject: Re: Comments???? > >RE: Photo analysis. >It is not necessary to have a true UFO Photo to make an attempt to >verifiy the claim that photographic analysis can be used to prove or >disprove the "truth" of a photo. A series of photos could be taken of >"known" UFOs, planes that were reflecting the sun just right, or an >unusuall cloud formation. Another series of photos could be made that >were "known" fakes; photos that were purposely taken to look as much >like the "known" UFOs as possible. Another series could be of "known" >UFO's that had purposly had strings placed in front of the camera or >some other red herrings. The experiment would be to see if the >photo-interpetation experts could sort out what was going on knowing >only that they were asked to determind what the photo was of and >whether it was a hoax. There is no need for any real UFO photos in >order to find out if fact can be seperated from fiction. It is just >this sort of experiment that the government should have been doing long >ago if they are going to be seriouslyu studying the phenomenon. Whould >you expect an analytic chemist to run tests to try and determine if >there was magnesium present with equipment that had never been used to >measure magnesium before? >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Delton #7892 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Speiser Authored at 15:41 on 09-21-88 >Subject: Re: Comments???? > >I wan't refering so much to leads that never checked out but to the >withholding of data from leads that did check out inthe hope that the >withheld data will become some sort of verifying factor for later >cases. Should people working with todays cyclotrons withhold some of >their data to see if other people working with cyclotrons come up with >the same answer and if they do they can say, aha, that's the same >answer I got but if they don't they just continue to sit smug in the >knowledge that they know something you don't(or so they think). > In addition, it doesn't lend much credibility to field to have so >many disparate groups all trying to hold on to their little piece of >the rock while chiding the gvt for keeping things secret. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Delton #7893 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Speiser Authored at 15:41 on 09-21-88 >Subject: Re: Meier/Pleiades case > >My ovens full of them! >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Zylex Systems #8077 "UFO Echo" > To: John Lear Authored at 00:34 on 09-21-88 >Subject: Re: adamski > > >John, you must be jesting! Adamski was a fraud first rate; bar none! > >He couldnt meet his own mother-in-law without declaring her an alien > >(as most of us would . His only encounter with the outer-world was >his bank account from fools that believed in his tripe. Put that in a >pipe and smoke it some time... Naturally from this end its all in the >cheek pal, but have fun anyway..... > > >--- > * Origin: Flower City Central HST, Rochester,NY (Opus 1:260/204) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Bill Cooper #8078 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Delton Authored at 12:14 on 09-22-88 >Subject: Re: Comments???? > >No.....none at all. The point was made and taken. Also the interview >in Little Rock was not solicited by me. Reward maybe? >Bill >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Bill Cooper #8081 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Speiser Authored at 12:28 on 09-22-88 >Subject: Re: The Treasured Secret > >RE: Steve Darenson.........I know what he is talking about but he has >it wrong the way its stated. The pilot can take the speed with no >trouble. What he cannot take is the G forces exerted when the plane >maneuvers at the speed. The plane has a computer that takes control >during combat because the pilot blacks out during the acrobatics needed >to evade missiles and other fighters which may be attacking. When the >threat is ended the plane resumes level flight until the pilot wakes up >and again takes control. Speed has nothing to do with it except that >at or above certain speeds the G forces increase dramatically in tight >turns. I think that this is as simply stated as I can make it. >Bill >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Bill Cooper #8082 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Speiser Authored at 12:35 on 09-22-88 >Subject: Re: Comments???? > >Wrong....Wrong.....Wrong......Its not the responsibility of the media >or >anyone else. The responsibility of communication is and always has >been with the communicator, in this instance us, with the media >reporting facts and impressions just as their job description states. >If we want to be perceived as legitimate then it is up to us to create >and maintain that image. One way to do that is to absolutely seperate >ourselves from any fringe loonie element in a way that is unmistaken. >The next thing to do is gather and report facts only without publickly >theorizing or indulging in reaching premature conclusions. Those are >the things that make the normal man or woman shake their head and throw >our material in the file 13. We must not sensationalize because that >scares people and their reaction is denial. Think it over. >Bill >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Bill Cooper #8083 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Speiser Authored at 12:40 on 09-22-88 >Subject: Re: Comments???? > >I believe every fact should be released. That means the fact that a >document exists even if it has been proven phony. Questions should >then >be asked; Who said its phony? What are their credentials? >Has there been a second or third opinion? Once in history against all >proof to the contrary the earth was said to be flat. The evidence was >suppressed by the church because it was from Satan and Satan could not >be right. Get the drift? >Bill >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Delton #8084 "UFO Echo" > To: Bill Cooper Authored at 12:51 on 09-22-88 >Subject: Re: Comments???? > >Your reward will surely come in the hearafter if not before! >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Delton #8085 "UFO Echo" > To: Bill Cooper Authored at 12:58 on 09-22-88 >Subject: Re: Comments???? > >Right.. Right.... Right.....Ufologists need to clean up their act if >they want to be taken seriously. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Speiser #8143 "UFO Echo" > To: Bill Cooper Authored at 17:05 on 09-22-88 >Subject: Re: The Treasured Secret > >I gotcha, I kinda figured that's what he meant, either that or >acceleration (which G forces are a form of). > > Jim >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Speiser #8144 "UFO Echo" > To: Bill Cooper Authored at 17:30 on 09-22-88 >Subject: Re: Comments???? > >Agree to an extent, BUT.... > >I keep coming back to my own case, which I don't think is necessarily >atypical. I'm not a journalist, but I did take Journalism in college. I >know what is meant by balanced reporting, by attribution, by getting the >facts straight, etc. I'm also not a scientist, but I'm familiar with the >scientific method, and with the precepts of skeptical thought. I approached >the subject of UFOs with the same skepticism with which I approached >Astrology, Religion, Geller, and just about every other paranormal claim. >I've read all four of Klass' books, and just about every article he's >written for the Skeptical Inquirer. I've been to two CSICOP conventions, >and I'm about to attend a third. I've tried to make myself thoroughly >familiar with all sides of this argument. I have concluded that the pro-UFO >camp is definitely on to something, and it very well could be aliens. >Furthermore, I simply can't see how ANYONE, including professional >investigative reporters, could not conclude the same thing. >I realize that a part-time stringer for the AP is not going to have the >time to immerse himself in the subject to that degree, but there's >absolutely no excuse for the Science Editor of the New York Times to have >taken the stand that he historically has. ANY journalist that digs deep >enough can easily see that, while there is a LOT of crap out there, with >people like Frank Stranges and the El-Legions running around, there remains >some diamonds in them thar dunghills. > >And in a larger sense, its not our "job" to do ANYTHING. Very few of the >more serious followers get >paid for any of this, fewer still make a living off it. It may have been >our job to produce evidence that anomalous occurences were taking place, >and that the government had certain, covert knowledge of it, but we've DONE >that already. Now its time for the pros to roll up their sleeves and do >some actual work, rather than sit back and watch us make asses of >ourselves. > >Jim >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Bill Cooper #8169 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Speiser Authored at 19:47 on 09-22-88 >Subject: Re: Comments???? > >I understand but .........if you or any of your conpatriots want to be >recognized then you MUST do it. >Bill >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Speiser #8176 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Delton Authored at 22:41 on 09-22-88 >Subject: Re: Comments???? > >Those are good points, Jim, and I would like to see a test like that >myself. I do know that Maccabee and Haines, at least have caught a few >hoaxes in their time, so they are at least discerning to some degree. > >Jim >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Al Pinto #8239 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Delton Authored at 11:04 on 09-22-88 >Subject: Re: Meier/Pleiades case > > >> 6th grade education isn't something t sneeze at. > > > >I wasn't taught nuclear physics in the sixth grade. I am 27 yrs. old. >Meier had a sixth grade education but he is much older than me. He also >was truant quite often. > > > >> one of his pictures came from a Sears cataloge. > > > >Hmm... didn't know that. > >Jim, isn't there anything that you find intriqing about this case? What >about all the other photos that are not so easily explained. Do they >exist? Was the investigative team of Stevens/Elders/Walsh full of ______? > > > >I think still there are many unsatisfactorily, unanswered questions. Also, >whenever I talk about this case the UFO community is very quick to say it >is a hoax. The reasons that it is said are flimsy at best. > > > >Ok, let's talk about the physical evidence. What about the circular >landing spots? These tracks all have had the same counter-clockwise >swirls, the crushed grass never turned brown and died, yet it never rose >again. People who went to see them, again I say went to see them, tried >to duplicate the tracks but couldn't. The grass turned brown and died, >unlike the ones they were trying to imitate. > > > >What about the metal sample that convieniently disappeared from Dr. >Vogel's lab? Has anyone from the UFO community talked to Vogel? > > > >Let's keep this dialoque going! I find it very interesting. Anybody can >jump in, I'm surprised that only you and I are talking about this. I left >my original message to Jim Speiser and have yet to read his reply. Is >there a "cover-up" of sorts going on within the UFO community on this >case? > > > > Al > > >--- > * Origin: Heartbreak Hotel, WOC'in and Roll'in! 203-270-1913 (Opus 1:141/790) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Al Pinto #8240 "UFO Echo" > To: Jim Delton Authored at 11:26 on 09-22-88 >Subject: tachyons > > >Tachyons haven't been discovered yet. They are hypothetical particles >that travel faster than the speed of light. As far as this theory being >known before 1978... I don't know. I will research it. > > > > Al > > >--- > * Origin: Heartbreak Hotel, WOC'in and Roll'in! 203-270-1913 (Opus 1:141/790) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Speiser #8291 "UFO Echo" > To: Al Pinto Authored at 12:46 on 09-23-88 >Subject: Re: Meier/Pleiades case > >-> Ok, let's talk about the physical evidence. What about the >-> circular landing spots? These tracks all have had the same > >Its my understanding that Colman Von Keviczky (a pro-Contactee >investigator, by the way) went to Switzerland and checked out Meier's >claims. Among other things, I understand he found two large wooden cable >spools, such as the type used by phone and power companies. He eye-guessed >the diameter at about the same as the mysterious circles. I could be wrong >about this, though. In any case, this kind of hoax has been done before, >and its not very hard. > >-> What about the metal sample that convieniently disappeared >-> from Dr. Vogel's lab? Has anyone from the UFO community >-> talked to Vogel? > >There's no mystery about how the sample disappeared. Bill Moore when he >went to see Vogel, he was carrying around the remaining samples in one of >those little coin purses that you push in at the sides, and it opens like a >mouth. Great way to carry around possible proof of ET visitation. And by >the way, its MR. Vogel -- he is NOT a Doctor, as some connected with the >case have implied. This is the same Marcel Vogel that believes plants can >communicate, and is currently hawking the wonders of Crystal Power. Yes, >many in the UFO community have talked to Vogel -- and it seems he tells >each one a different story. > >-> What about all the other photos that are not so >-> easily explained. > >Do we need to explain EVERY photo, in order to wrap this case up as a hoax? >Isn't it enough to show the string in one or two, and just assume (by >Occam's Razor) that the rest are hoaxes as well? > >-> Was the investigative team >-> of Stevens/Elders/Walsh full of ______? > >Yes. > >Jim >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Delton #8295 "UFO Echo" > To: Al Pinto Authored at 13:37 on 09-23-88 >Subject: Re: Meier/Pleiades case > >It is intriguing in many ways BUT, why would someone with so many >"real" photos need to resort to a phoney one. Having seen some of the >movies of the Beamship it looked real phoney to me. THe thing simply >looks like a poor hoax even to the unaided eyeball. Dr. Vogel is >presented in two different lights depending on who is talking about >him. In the Book Light Years" they make it sound like he is a top >scientist but others would discribe him in much less glowing terms. >What kind of scientist would take such incredibly poor care of such a >rare sample of material from another galaxy as to lose it. I take >better care of my chapstick. The circular "landing spots" have been >seen before and many people have concluded that they are the result of >whirlwinds. I suspect the reason that "his" didn't die is because they >were caused by the wind which bent (not broke) them over and once bent >over they no longer had sufficent rigidity to stand upright again. If >you walk around in a circle to try and duplicate the effect you will >likely break them and the tops will die. I don't see much mystery >there. One thing I always wonder about these supposed "contacts" is >how the participants can have such long and intimate contact yet come >back with nothing new for their efforts. Supposedly Mr. Mier learned >of tachyons thereby proving he communicated with ETE's. That may be >sufficient for some but I don't find it all that impressive based on my >own experiance. There are some files here on Alpha that cover some of >this that you might want to download. The other problem I have (and >it's purely a personal thing) is that I don't accept the ideas that >aliens will do so many totally illogical things in there attempts to >contact us. How is it that they never seem to choose a mainstream >scientist to contact? They always pick some farmer, or one armed >drop-out, or sci-fi bookwriter, or unhappy homemaker, etc, etc. and why >do they never provide any compelling evidence of their visit, choosing >instead to leave behind clippings from sears catologs. >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Jim Delton #8296 "UFO Echo" > To: Al Pinto Authored at 13:41 on 09-23-88 >Subject: Re: tachyons > >I would have to check in the book again but picture this scenario; >Kinder is talking to Mier and Meir says he was told that the Beamship >was powered by Traction or Tractor drive, and Kinder say,"Eh, what was >that Billy, did you say tachyon drive?" and Mier says,"Tachyons, yeh, >thats the ticket, Tachyon drive." Consider the source(s). >--- QuickBBS v2.03 > * Origin: -==- [No! Not THAT kind of Crashed Disk!] (1:114/37) > >-- > > > > > >-- > > > > > From - Wed Oct 16 14:35:02 1996 X-POP3-Rcpt: ez073888@peseta Received: from franc.ucdavis.edu by peseta.ucdavis.edu (8.8.0/UCD3.7.1) id OAA26033; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:16:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from po.cwru.edu by franc.ucdavis.edu (8.8.0/UCD3.7.1) id OAA11586; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu (aa440@caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu [129.22.8.211]) by po.cwru.edu with ESMTP (8.7.6+cwru/CWRU-3.0) id RAA26572; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:12:36 -0400 (EDT) (from aa440@caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu for ) Received: (aa440@localhost) by caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu (8.7.6+cwru/CWRU-2.3-bsdi) id RAA07196; Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:02:30 -0400 (EDT) (from aa440) Message-Id: <199610162102.RAA07196@caleb.INS.CWRU.Edu> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:02:30 -0400 (EDT) From: aa440@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dale Wedge) To: orphillips@ucdavis.edu Subject: Re: NY TIMES Editorial Re: Soviet UFO Reports Reply-To: aa440@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dale Wedge) Content-Type: text X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Content-Length: 2681 In a previous article, xx044 (UFOlogy SIG) says: > > The normally "anti-UFO reality" New York Times, of >Saturday October 14, 1989, contains the following editorial >concerning the recent UFO reports in Tass: > > > THE VORONEZH VISITORS > > Tass, the Soviet press agency, has reported the landing >of an extraterrestrial vehicle in the city of Voronezh. The >creatures who emerged were nine feet tall, with little knobby >heads and three eyes. They had a small robot in tow and went >for a "short promenade about the park," Tass reports. > While some Americans have harbored reservations about >Tass reports in past years, this is one they can embrace with >more enthusiasm. The United States has its own share of UFO >watchers, but the extraterrestrials they describe have been >decidedly uncouth. The aliens who visit America tend to kidnap >their hosts, in some cases erasing from memory many salient >details of an otherwise unforgettable experience. > The Voronezh visitors, in welcome contrast, were >peacable. They didn't interfere in current political >arrangements. They didn't lecture, proselytize, or find fault >with local mores. One can overlook their failure to seek an >introduction to the mayor. Behaving in a perfectly normal >manner for sightseers on strange planets, they just walked >around the park, leaving behind two pieces of deep-red rocks of >a kind that, according to a geologist quoted by Tass, "cannot be >found on Earth." > There are any number of solemn explanations for Tass's >remarkable report. Some argue that the long suppression of >religion in the Soviet Union has given Russians a particular >fondness for the supernatural. > Others suggest that Soviet reporters and editors have >only recently begun to develop the skeptical armor that Western >journalists acquire after being fooled a few dozen times. That >may also explain why even the hard-boiled Government officials >who oversee Tass found the Voronezh report sufficiently >plausible to print. > These explanations miss the point. If extraterrestrial >visitors have to land somewhere, why not in Voronezh? >Skepticism can be taken too far. These very columns, in 1920, >poured scourn on the idea of a certain Robert Goddard that >rockets could fly in the vacuum of space. Mr Goddard, the >editorial regretted, "only seems to lack the knowledge ladled >out daily in high schools." > As surely as rockets can never fly in space, Tass has >broken the story of the Century. > >-- > > > > > >-- > > > > >