From: u2nmh@csc.liv.ac.uk (N.M. Humphries) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranet.ufo Subject: Bob Lazar info 1/10 Message-ID: Date: 18 Nov 93 13:31:17 GMT Sender: news@compsci.liverpool.ac.uk (News Eater) Organization: Computer Science, Liverpool University Lines: 1782 Nntp-Posting-User: u2nmh Nntp-Posting-Host: bobr.csc.liv.ac.uk ROBER LAZAR KLAS TRANSCRIPT ================================================================================ (C) Copyright 1989 ParaNet Information Service ================================================================================ 072/417 11 Nov 89 03:25:00 ~From: Michael Corbin To: All Subj: For Immediate Release Attr: ------------------------------------------------ November 10, 1989 ParaNet Information Service (Denver, CO)--This evening saw perhaps an unprecedented event in UFOlogy. KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, Nevada has been airing a UFO special during the evening news which began on Monday dealing with the UFO mystery and cover-up. The series, which has been covered by ParaNet, began its coverage with a history of UFOs beginning in the late 1940s and moving forward through the numerous sighting reports to the cattle mutilations, which was aired last evening. As promised at the close of last evening's show, George Knapp, a news anchorman for Channel 8 in Vegas, stated that a scientific person would be featured on tonight's program who has claimed to work at Area 51, the government's super-secret test range at Nellis AFB in Nevada. Indeed, quite a story was told by Robert Lazar, a physicist who claimed that he had worked on a project at Area 51 involving flying disks provided by alien intelligences. Over the last year, ParaNet has carried stories relating to possible involvement with the government in projects of this nature at the Nevada test site. Up to now, the stories have been of a very speculative nature. Although the material presented by Robert Lazar remains unconfirmed, enough information has been disclosed that ParaNet's large investigative staff in Nevada has started an intensive investigation into this release. It is interesting to note that Robert Lazar is an associate of John Lear and has been providing this information to Lear over the last few months. Lear has appeared on Channel 8 on numerous occasions together will Bill Cooper discussing Lear's famous 'ET Hypothesis.' According to Lear, Lazar was instrumental in providing Lear with locations overlooking the test site which would provide a good view of the objects as they flew into the night sky. Lear attempted to shoot video of an object as it maneuvered through the night sky during last summer, however nothing was captured on the tape of a substantive nature. Lear also relates that his group was harassed by a Lincoln County sheriff following his attempts to take the pictures. Below is a transcript of the program that aired this evening. All paragraphs out of quotes are the narrator of the segment. We were as accurate as possible on the transcription, however there are a couple of places where comments were edited out due to inability to understand what was being said. Further reports will be provided as information becomes available. =============================================================================== We've been working on the story for some time....UFO researchers claim that there is a secret government within our government. Now this may be hard to believe coming from the UFO perspective, but we have learned that Watergate and the Iran Contra scandal that factions within our government can and do pursue their own hidden agendas outside of the law; outside the control of the Congress or the knowledge of the American people. This is exactly the type of operation that we hear about tonight. It's a chilling scenario with worldwide implications that may have its roots right here [Las Vegas, Nevada]. Area 51, that mysterious corner of the Nevada Test Site, is no longer considered a secret. The fact that secretive things go on here isn't evident; even to the Soviets who make daily spy flights over the facility to take a peek at what's going on. These photos, never before shown in public, are about as close as anyone will ever come to seeing what the place looks like again. The dry bed at Groom Lake, the corrugated buildings, a three-mile long runway and some highly sophisticated radar and detection equipment. Its been known by many names over the years -- Dreamland; The Ranch; The Skunk Works. If ever there was a place to test the secret new technology, this is it. And that's exactly what has been done here for decades. Area 51 is where Francis Gary Powers and the other U-2 pilots were trained in the 50s. And, where the U-2 itself was developed. The SR-71 spy plane that spotted Soviet missiles in Cuba in the early 60s were also developed at 51. 51 is where Stealth technology was nurtured, where Star Wars devices are still tested, and where all manner of CIA [unknown] business has been plotted and refined. It's the perfect place for secret things, but of course, that's no secret. 51 is ringed by the forbidden vastness of the Nevada test site; by the looming Groom Mountain and by sparsely populated desert expanses. But the people that do live out here have no love lost for the military, but they're conservative, patriotic and they mind their own business. --- FD 2.00 * Origin: ParaNet Administration =->Voice 303-232-8303<-= (1:104/428) SEEN-BY: 19/19 101/667 104/422 428 108/110 114/37 115/876 120/80 SEEN-BY: 132/113 133/107 138/111 140/32 141/790 147/66 231/40 SEEN-BY: 252/18 265/12 268/102 283/630 304/1 3 363/17 382/33 SEEN-BY: 395/20 1063/304 30163/150 401 088/417 14 Nov 89 03:22:00 ~From: Robert Klinn To: All Subj: Area 51: The Nevada Test Site's Supersecret UFO Base? Attr: ------------------------------------------------ With two top local TV stations here in Las Vegas -- KLAS-TV and KTNV-TV -- carrying deadly serious news reports this week of real alien UFOs POSSIBLY being flown out of the supersecret Area 51, that portion of the U.S. Government's Nevada Test Site which the Air Force refuses to acknowledge as even existing, the situation here appears like The War of the Worlds. Disinformation? Reality? What next? At KTNV-TV, photographer Clay Downey and reporter Glen Meek are tracking down the nature of the on-going projects at Area 51. Off-air, Meek says he has discovered that Area 51 is comprised of four sections. Of those, he has learned the type of activity occurring at two of them. He has been having much difficulty learning the type of activity occurring at the other two. KTNV will broadcast reports this week at 5:30 p.m. Wed., Thurs, & Fri. In a videotape presented by KLAS-TV newsman George Knapp, a UFO performs abrupt manuevers over what may be the "S-4" portion of Area 51 at the Test Site. Knapp's final report will be broadcast tonight, Tuesday at approximately 6:15 p.m. Knapp's star witness is scientist Robert Lazar, who drew a picture of the craft he saw operating at the base. Lazar emphatically claims these are alien craft -- not human-made devices. Lazar says at least one UFO appeared to have been ruptured by a projectile. War of the Worlds? Robert B. Klinn --- QuickBBS v2.04 * Origin: -==- Denver, CO (303)232-6115 (1:104/422) SEEN-BY: 19/19 101/667 104/422 428 108/110 114/37 115/876 120/80 SEEN-BY: 132/113 133/107 138/111 140/32 141/790 147/66 231/40 SEEN-BY: 252/18 265/12 268/102 283/630 304/1 3 363/17 382/33 SEEN-BY: 395/20 1063/304 30163/150 401 097/417 15 Nov 89 01:55:00 ~From: Michael Corbin To: All Subj: Installment on Dreamland continued. Attr: ------------------------------------------------ November 13, 1989 ParaNet Information Service (Denver, CO) -- In our continuing coverage of the remarkable revelations coming out of Las Vegas, Nevada, here is the next installment to the program aired on November 13, 1989 by television station KLAS-TV and George Knapp. ================================================================= News Anchor persons: A former government scientist has alleged that the U.S. military is flying recovered UFOs at a secret base in the Nevada desert. The allegations about the secret facility near the Groom Mountains first surfaced on Eyewitness News on last Friday [November 10, 1989]. Scientist Bob Lazar says that there are at least nine of the flying saucers being tested and that they were not built on Earth. George Knapp has more on the continuation of our series on UFOs. Lazar: "Yeah. It was obvious it came from somewhere else, uh, other than Earth." Scientist Bob Lazar was convinced that the technology he saw being tested at a secret base in the Nevada desert is of alien origin, and for Lazar the proof is, at least, partially in the furniture. One of the nine flying disks he says he saw at the base, which was designated S-4, looks exactly like this UFO photographed in Europe [Photo of UFO shown]. Lazar called it the "sport model." Lazar: "I gave everything names -- the top hat one and you know the jello mold and, uh, the sport model operated without any hitches at all. I mean, it looked new. If I knew what a new flying saucer looked like. One of them looked like it was hit with some sort of a projectile. It had a large hole in the bottom and a large hole in the top with the metal bent out like some sort of, you know, large caliber 4 or 5 inch had gone through it." Even before he saw the sport model operate, Lazar says, he suspected that the ship came from somewhere else. The realization slapped him in the face the first time he glimpsed the inside of the disk. Lazar: "I got to look inside and it had really small chairs. I think that was the first confirmation I had. That was just a shocking thing because everytime before that I was able to label it. This is just a little advance that a group of scientists had formed and, you know, they're keeping it secret, and yeah, we could have built a big disk like that, and yeah, that's no problem, and, you know, we could have adapted the use(?) to make it fly, but why does it have little furniture inside? [garbled]. And things began to click together just all too fast." A few of the disks had been completely dismantled to find out how they worked, Lazar says, but others were fully operational. A Japanese TV network created this animated version of Lazar's story after his first interview with us aired in May [showing video]. Lazar says the dramatization is similar to a test flight he witnessed. Lazar: "The bottom of it glowed blue and began to hiss like any, like high voltage does on a round sphere. It's my impression that the reason that they're round and have no sharp edges is to contain the high voltage like, uh, if you've seen a high voltage system's insulators -- things are round or else you get a corona discharge. In either case, it began to hiss as in high voltage and it lifted off the ground quietly except for that little hiss in the background, and that stopped as soon as it reached about 20 or 30 feet." Lazar says the test of the sport model was a short one -- that it made only a few moves before setting back down. He didn't see who was actually flying the craft, but was very impressed, nonetheless. Lazar: "Well, there's no action reaction system to it. There's no, like in a jet engine, exhaust gas being thrown out -- no propeller, no noise. It's just, for all intents and purposes, magic." To Lazar's knowledge, the flying disks are not being used, for say, any flights to Jupiter. He said excessive caution and intense secrecy contributed to the plodding pace of the program and were a main source of his disenchantment. Lazar: "It's just unfair, outright, not to put it in the hands of the overall scientific community. There are people much more capable of dealing with this information, and by this time would have gotten a lot further along than this small select group of people working out in the middle of the desert. They don't even have the facilities, really, to completely analyze what they're dealing with." Gene Huff: "Well he was being quiet. If he kept me abreast of anything, he kept me abreast of the security checks -- they'd randomly drop by his house. They'd threaten his life; they'd threaten his wife's life. They had done all that so we really didn't converse, I mean, he really was adhering to the program." Gene Huff is a Las Vegas real estate appraiser. A regular guy who just happens to have a friend in the flying saucer business. He learned about Lazar's S-4 experiences only after a long period. Lazar is anxious for people to know that he didn't just run right out and spill the secrets of the universe, and that some things are properly kept confidential. Lazar: "I did not believe that this should be a security matter. Some of it, sure. But, just the concept that there's definite proof, and uh, we even have articles from another world, another system, you just can't not tell everyone. A lot of people don't believe that. But, I do." When he reached what he felt was his bursting point, he took Huff and a few others to the edge of the Groom Mountains to see the flights for themselves. A total of five witnesses on two consecutive weeks managed to dodge security patrols long enough to see the strange glowing object lift above the mountain. Huff(?): "Uh, it came up above the same mountain. It moved around. It did a step move -- it actually went up in the air like this [showing details with hands] and it hovered then dropped way down then it just floated around and cruised around. It starts coming up the mountain range...." This home video tape was recorded during one of the trips to the Groom Mountains [showing video tape. A lot of talking....Object in sight....Mention of brightness of the object....]. Admittedly, the tape proves very little by itself because, with the distance and darkness, there are no reference points other than the alleged flying disk, but Lazar's information about the time and location of the test flight proves correct -- not once but twice. That, according to our off-camera interviews with each of the other witnesses. Gene Huff describes his second sighting: Huff: "Through the telescope we could see an elliptical-shaped light. You can only get so close even with a telescope to a secure facility. Anyway, it came up by us very rapidly. It glowed and glows brighter like a star and we almost got the feeling that it was going to explode, it glowed so brightly. We backed up behind the car then it went down and glowed back up a little bit and then very softly glided back over, back where the mountains where it came up, hovered for awhile, and then that's that....Just like you see in the movies." Bob Lazar isn't the only person to claim "inside knowledge" of the flying disks at the test site -- he is just the only person to say so publicly. We have communicated with several people who say they know of the saucer program. A technician in a highly sensitive position told us it is "common knowledge among those with high security clearances that recovered alien disks are stored at the Nevada test site." A Las Vegas professional, who once served in the military and was stationed at the test site, said he saw a flying disk land outside the boundaries of Area 51 -- that it was quickly surrounded by security personnel and that he was taken away and debriefed for several hours. A man who once worked at Groom Lake as a technician, at our request, wrote this letter explaining how he inadvertently walked into the wrong hangar and saw what appeared to be a large metallic disk under a tarp. It was being examined by men in lab coats. And, an airman who worked at Nellis at a radar installation says he and his fellow servicemen watched over a period of five nights, unusual objects flying over the Groom Mountains. He says the radar images indicates the objects zoomed into range at speeds of 7,000 miles per hour and then would stop on a dime, and that nothing we have is capable of doing that. The airman says that when word of his sighting got out, he was ordered to turn off his radar sensors for that area and told to keep quiet about the matter because it did not happen. None of this means that the military is actually flying alien spacecraft in the Nevada desert. It could all perhaps be explained as some other secret program. Lazar insists that's not the case. We put the matter to the U.S. Navy, which according to Lazar, is running the saucer show. Four different naval offices were contacted. All denied having any information in their files. The Naval Research Lab said it conducted a thorough search but found "zip." Naval Intelligence said much the same thing, adding, it is not required to create a file where one doesn't exist. A side note: We also requested files on a UFO sighting over Tremonton, Utah in 1952. The Navy spent more than a thousand hours studying film of that sighting -- a fact that's been noted in several publications -- but, for purposes of our request, the Navy couldn't find those files either. Lazar: "The group that runs this project, whether it really is the Navy or they just say that, apparently these people have executive power -- they don't report to anyone." Tomorrow, more troubling allegations of the military potential of alien technology. ================================================================= This file is available on ParaNet as Area51-2.ufo. --- FD 2.00 * Origin: ParaNet Administration =->Voice 303-232-8303<-= (1:104/428) SEEN-BY: 19/19 101/667 104/422 428 108/110 114/37 115/876 120/80 SEEN-BY: 132/113 133/107 138/111 140/32 141/790 147/66 231/40 SEEN-BY: 252/18 265/12 268/102 283/630 304/1 3 363/17 395/20 SEEN-BY: 1063/304 30163/150 401 146/417 20 Nov 89 00:16:00 ~From: Michael Corbin To: All Subj: More on Lazar and Dreamland/Area 51 Attr: ------------------------------------------------ November 14, 1989 ParaNet Information Service (Denver, CO) -- In our continuing coverage of the Riddle of Area 51, here is yet another installment of the KLAS-TV program being aired in Las Vegas, Nevada featuring Bob Lazar, who has 'come out of the closet' so to speak with information regarding government testing of UFOs. ================================================================= Just over this ridge [showing a photo of Area 51], tucked inside the test tubes of a hidden government base, the secrets of the universe may be unfolding. The area is designated S-4, and according to one man who claims to have worked there, S-4 harbors scientific achievements that would astonish our deepest thinkers. It is technology that, if it exists, could change the world, but is allegedly bottled up by military minds. Lazar: "It's not an overall government project. It's not something that Congress appropriates money for. 2 billion is for this; 15 billion for flying saucers; 8 billion for Star Wars. It doesn't go like that. I don't believe that they have any knowledge of it at all." The technology that Bob Lazar says he saw extends far beyond flying saucers. An anti-matter reactor allows the spaceships to produce their own gravitational fields, he says, such a technology, if real, would answer UFO skeptics who argue that aliens could never visit Earth because the distances between worlds are too great, even at the speed of light. Lazar: "Gravity distorts time and space. Just like if you had a water bed and put a bowling ball in the middle. It warps it down like that -- that's exactly what happens to space. Imagining that you were in a spacecraft that could exert a tremendous gravitational field by itself you could sit on any particular place and turn on the gravity generator and actually warp space and time, and fold it. By shutting that off, you'd click back and you'd be a tremendous distance from where you were but time would not have even moved because you essentially shut it off. I mean it is so far fetched, people....it's difficult for people to grasp, and as stubborn as the scientific community is they'll never buy it, but this is, in fact, that's just what happens." Actually, Lazar's explanation is very close to mainstream scientific thought, and can be traced directly to Einstein. The difference is scientists regard it as theory only. There is much that science still doesn't know. Dale Etheridge (Scientist): "There are people who say that our main problem with that is we don't know what gravity is. It's this magical force that acts at a distance. We can describe how it behaves -- that's what the law of gravity is -- it's just a description of how it behaves, but it says nothing about what gravity really is." We'll use Etheridge as our barometer of scientific thought. He says we cannot produce gravity; that there's no such thing as a working anti-matter reactor, and that we have yet to figure out a way to get around the speed of light. He also concedes, though, such things are possible. Etheridge: "Yeah. And really we don't know what's possible as there could be other civilizations out there several hundred years or so -- a thousand years, even a million years ahead of us -- that have found a way to circumvent this. We have no way of knowing for sure." Lazar: "Well, the thing is when you harness gravity, you harness everything. It's the missing piece in physics right now. We really know very little about gravity." At least that's the way it used to be. Lazar says the technology to harness gravity not only exists but is being tested at S-4. And, if such technology is beyond human capabilities, it must have come from someplace else. It's more than conjecture, he says, because he also saw an element that cannot be found on the periodic chart. The element, called 115, can be stored in lead casings much like this one [showing a lead circular container]. Lazar says the government has 500 pounds of it, and it cannot be made on earth. Lazar: "It would be almost impossible; well, it is impossible to synthesize an element that heavy here on Earth." Interviewer: "At least right now." Lazar: "I don't think that you can ever synthesize it. The amount of....you essentially have to assemble it by bombarding it with protons if....atom by atom, it would take an infinite amount of power and an infinite amount of time. The substance has to come from a place where super-heavy elements could have been produced naturally. And what sort of place is that? Lazar: "Next to a much larger sun where there would be greater mass. Maybe a binary star system -- a super-nova -- somewhere where there is just a bigger release of energy to synthesize these things naturally. It has to be a naturally occurring element." 115 is the fuel for the anti-matter reactors, he says. By bombarding 115 anti-matter is produced. A kilo of anti-matter could produce the energy equivalent of 46 ten-megaton hydrogen bombs, and comparing the energy potential of anti-matter to, say, the Hoover Dam would be like comparing planets to grains of sand. 115 could also make one heck of a bomb. Lazar: "We're talking about hundreds and hundreds of megatons off a small piece of it. It sounds incredible, but total conversion of matter to energy would release that amount of power. And it isn't that difficult to take....get the energy out of it. So it's not something you'd ever want to fall anyone's hands." The dangers associated with 115 and anti-matter may be the reason Lazar was hired to work at S-4. There was an accident, he says, back in April 1987. An accident that was passed off as an unannounced nuclear test. Lazar: "Some people got killed. I was told flat out I was one of the people that were to replace these guys." Is this why the government might be keeping the whole matter a secret? Because of the military potential of alien technology? Lazar says he believes the Soviet Union was once part of our research on the flying disks, but that the U.S. kicked the Soviets out after making some sort of discovery. He also believes the program at S-4 is operated with funds allocated to Star Wars research, but says he can't prove it. Some UFO researchers suspect the government is test flying alien craft so that it can one day master the technology and claim it was made in the good old U.S.A., thus obscuring the possibility of alien visitations. Stanton T. Friedman: "I think they have the duty to inform us. At least to the bare bones of what's going on. I don't want technological stuff put out on the table. I mean, I worked on classified projects for 15 years, and I don't think we need another weapon's delivery system. But I think the government does have the responsibility to release information that, indeed, the planet is being visited. Probably it should be done in conjunction with the Soviets." Lazar: "I don't think that it will get to that level. They're not going to have a fleet of them and fly them around and....I don't think you need to do that. If you're looking at them from a weapons point of view, you're looking at an incredibly powerful device. You only need one to operate. You don't ever need to come public with it. You may want to learn more about it should it ever break which is....might be what they're doing. Uh...." Interviewer: "They've got one...." Lazar: "Oh, they've got a few. Yeah." Lazar is the first to admit that his story is tough to swallow. He submitted to polygraph exams that opened up sensitive parts of his personal life, and fully expects to be ridiculed or perhaps punished for his revelations. His desire to explain what really happened at S-4 took us to Layne Keck, a licensed experienced hypnotherapist who quietly and privately tried to help Lazar remember details of the many briefing papers he says he read. Keck: "I have no clue as to what we were getting to, and he started saying that there were pictures of what I thought was desks on the wall. Well as it turned out, it was disks that he was referring to. And, at that moment, I realized we were into something that was pretty heavy." Keck does not exaggerate his claims for hypnosis. He regards it as a useful tool for uncovering some lost memory. He says people are quite capable of lying under hypnosis, but says the technique can be of help in determining truth. What's his opinion of Lazar's truthfulness? Keck: "It tells me that his subconscious mind believes totally all of these things." Lazar has long suspected that his government employers used some sort of mind control technique to prevent him from disclosing too much about S-4. While he says he has vivid conscious memories of the saucers and other technology there were other memories, that even now, remained locked, which is why he sought out Keck in the first place. Keck is convinced that someone really did mess with Lazar's head. Keck: "Also they used primitive fear in threatening those in his environment if he did bring this information forth. Also, it appears that maybe there were some chemicals used." Lazar: "Nah, I'm not going to change anyone's mind. That not my intention. I'm just relaying the experience. The job that I went through. It is a fantastic thing. It's a fantastic story. I can't take people there to show them what was going on, and uh, you know, I don't expect anyone to believe it." What if he is right? What if aliens are here? How would this change our view of the world? Our most fundamental beliefs, which is religion? We'll know more on that tomorrow. ================================================================= --- FD 2.00 * Origin: ParaNet Administration =->Voice 303-232-8303<-= (1:104/428) SEEN-BY: 19/19 101/667 104/422 428 108/110 114/37 115/876 120/80 SEEN-BY: 132/113 133/107 138/111 140/32 141/790 147/66 231/40 SEEN-BY: 252/18 265/12 268/102 283/630 304/1 3 363/17 371/10 SEEN-BY: 1063/304 30163/22 150 401 159/417 21 Nov 89 22:38:00 ~From: Robert Klinn To: Bryon Smith Subj: Re: Area 51: The Nevada Test Site's Supersecret Ufo Base? Attr: ------------------------------------------------------ The time for the KLAS-TV (Channel 8), Las Vegas, report is Saturday, November 25, 1989, 8:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. The program is titled, "UFOs: The Evidence." Producer George Knapp says it will include the substance as well as updates of material recently broadcast as the nine-part series, "UFOs: The Best Evidence." (Incidentally, each of those nine parts was approximately 15 minutes, not one hour.) Knapp also says that while he is personally interested in more UFO material about Area 51, there is no more budget at his station to pursue it. This contrasts with his on-air statement last week at the end of the ninth segment of the series, to the effect that the Area 51/S-4/Robert Lazar/recovered alien vehicles investigation is continuing; also earlier in the series, he had said that this was only the beginning, that the investigation is "by no means" over. --- QuickBBS v2.04 * Origin: -==- Denver, CO (303)232-6115 (1:104/422) SEEN-BY: 19/19 101/667 104/422 428 108/110 114/37 115/876 120/80 SEEN-BY: 132/113 133/107 138/111 140/32 141/790 147/66 231/40 SEEN-BY: 252/18 265/12 268/102 283/630 304/1 3 363/17 371/10 SEEN-BY: 1063/304 30163/22 150 401 166/417 22 Nov 89 19:41:00 ~From: Robert Klinn To: All Subj: Robert Lazar on KVEG-AM Attr: ------------------------------------------------ Theoretical physicist Robert Lazar and friend Las Vegas realtor Gene Huff -- in-studio guests on "Billy Goodman's Happening" live talk show, KVEG 840-AM Radio, 10:00 p.m. 11/21/89 until 1:00 a.m. 11/22/89 -- answered questions for three hours. --- QuickBBS v2.04 * Origin: -==- Denver, CO (303)232-6115 (1:104/422) SEEN-BY: 19/19 101/667 104/422 428 108/110 114/37 115/876 120/80 SEEN-BY: 132/113 133/107 138/111 140/32 141/790 147/66 231/40 SEEN-BY: 252/18 265/12 268/102 283/630 304/1 3 363/17 371/10 SEEN-BY: 1063/304 3607/20 30163/22 150 401 168/417 22 Nov 89 20:55:00 ~From: Michael Corbin To: All Subj: Update: Area 51 Attr: ------------------------------------------------ CONTRIBUTED BY: Robert B. Klinn, ParaNet Director of Investigations/Research ================================================================================ (C) Copyright 1989 ParaNet Information Service ================================================================================ Theoretical physicist Robert Lazar and his friend, Las Vegas realtor, Gene Huff -- in-studio guests on "Billy Goodman's Happening" live talk show, KVEG 840-AM Radio, 10:00 p.m.11/21/89 until 1:00 a.m. 11/22/89 -- answered questions for three hours. These notes were compiled from 10:20 p.m., thus missing 20 minutes (10:00 - 10:20 p.m.) of the three-hour program. Lazar says he is tired. 1. Lazar's Purpose In Going On-Air: Although Lazar's main stated purpose in appearing on the broadcast is to protect himself, caller Bill Cooper says one of Lazar's motives is anger -- previously expressed privately to Cooper -- that billions of dollars are needlessly wasted in the normal U.S. sectors by those without access to this alien technology. Lazar agrees. Lazar says another reason for his appearing is to correct incorrect information he had heard on previous broadcasts. Billy Goodman says Lazar's, Bill Cooper's, and John Lear's lives are on the line and that Lazar's best protection is the media, which is keeping Lazar alive. Lazar hopes "other people out there" working at S-4 will loosen up, come forward, and join with him to present their information as one, as a group. He doesn't want to be "the lone ranger." Congressional amnesty -- suggested by a caller -- would be nice, says Lazar, but merely offers freedom from prosecution. By coming forward, he concedes, the other S-4 workers have everything to lose and nothing to gain. But Huff says there has to be a moral guideline where national security has to hang in the balance and that the reporting of the existence of alien spaceships is where you draw the line. Caller Bill Cooper says there is "a higher value" that those at S-4 should consider as a reason for coming forward to join Lazar. But Lazar makes a point of distinguishing his whole view of the UFO situation from that of John Lear or Bill Cooper. 2. Verification of Lazar's Background: Lazar says he worked at S-4 -- a "restrained military environment" in Nevada -- from 12/88 to 4/89. In response to callers who want independently to check up on Lazar, he says his "colorful" background has already been checked by George Knapp of KLAS-TV, who had traveled to Los Alamos Laboratories and had spoken to former Lazar colleagues, who confirmed he really had worked there -- in spite of Los Alamos itself denying the fact of Lazar's employment with them. (Knapp's UFO broadcast displayed a page from a 1982 Los Alamos Labs internal phone book, listing Robert Lazar.) Caller Bill Cooper, who says he has talked to Lazar for over a year, says that by talking to persons at Lawrence Livermore Laboratory and at another facility, he and associates have confirmed Lazar's previous work in physics at the places Lazar specified. Lazar replied he was not aware of this checking done by Cooper. Responding to an "investigator" caller wanting Lazar to give him private info in order to check him out, Lazar says Lazar himself once took a correspondence course to be a private "investigator." Lazar says he has 25 people each wanting independently to check him out, but he will not allow that. Although Lazar admits he was paid by check, he refuses to discuss anything about the check stubs. --- FD 2.00 * Origin: ParaNet Administration =->Voice 303-232-8303<-= (1:104/428) SEEN-BY: 19/19 101/667 104/422 428 108/110 114/37 115/876 120/80 SEEN-BY: 132/113 133/107 138/111 140/32 141/790 147/66 231/40 SEEN-BY: 252/18 265/12 268/102 283/630 304/1 3 363/17 371/10 SEEN-BY: 382/33 1063/304 3607/20 30163/22 150 401 169/417 22 Nov 89 20:55:00 ~From: Michael Corbin To: Michael Corbin Subj: Update: Area 51 Attr: ------------------------------------------------ <...Continued from previous message> 3. Lazar's Clearance Level: He says neither REECO (Reynolds Electrical and Engineering Co., Inc.) nor EG&G -- each a well-known U.S. Department of Energy Test Site contractor -- has people at S-4, that those persons' clearances are at most Q-Clearances, while his own clearance is "38 levels above Q-Clearance." The closest to S-4 that REECO or EG&G people physically get, he says, is Area 51. 4. Threats Made to Lazar/Lazar Shot At? When Goodman refers to Lazar's telling him before the broadcast that Lazar had been shot at, Lazar says he doesn't want to talk about it. Lazar says he was called to go back to work but officially refused because he didn't like the idea of returning to that isolated place in the desert where they could do what they wanted to him. However, he says his clearance has not been revoked. Lazar says the executive powers at S-4 have run amok and there are no checks and balances. Congress, he says, has no knowledge of all this. Lazar says there are no lengths to which the military will not go to conceal this information. 5. Mind Control Suspicions: He contacted hypnotherapist Layne Keck of Serenus Clinical Hypnosis in Las Vegas because there were a couple of days where Lazar remembered only going out in a plane and coming back, but nothing in between. He suspected mind control had been performed on him. Lazar purposely selected Serenus because it had nothing to do with UFOs. [A Las Vegas Yellow Pages ad says: Serenus Clinical Hypnosis Helen Baucum 30 years Experience "Pin-Point" Method Children Our Specialty Weight Control, Stuttering, Bed Wetting, Nervous Tensions, Smoking, Drinking, Memory Retention 384-4420 1833 W. Charleston (across from S. Nevada Memorial Hosp.)] Under hypnosis, Lazar recalled intense drilling, threatening actions taken against him, and his drinking of "pine," which his hypnotherapist said was similar to the "Orion [sp?] Method" of regimented hypnosis used by the military. Per Huff, Lazar was given drugs and hypnosis by his employers -- not so he would forget what he was working on, but so -- by their imprinting his subconscious -- he would be afraid to talk. Per Huff, after first telling Lazar his phone was tapped, the military later threatened him because, having monitored his phone, they knew he was planning to release information about the alien craft. Huff says the military were amazed that the drugs and hypnosis had not worked. Although he is afraid, Lazar hopes they won't come after him now since he has already talked. 6. Location of the Saucers: Lazar says the nine saucers are not at the supersecret Area 51 (Groom Lake) of the U.S. government's Nevada Test Site, but at S-4 -- 10 miles south of Area 51. The disks are only at this one place. However, to go to work, Lazar flew (by plane) to Groom Lake, waited a short time at a cafe, then got on a bus [with blacked-out windows, per Lazar's Knapp-series statements]. Lazar says he knows someone who drills tunnels at the Test Site, but no mention is made that this individual also works at S-4. 7. Bad Aliens Killed S-4 Workers: Lazar says the aliens are not benevolent. Some humans were killed in a conflict after a U.S. military intelligence power play, after which point a previously ongoing information exchange ended. Huff says Lazar earlier told him -- and Lazar agrees he had said this -- that this exchange of information occurred between the aliens and human scientists/human security personnel [at S-4?]. But although the aliens had allowed themselves to be under constant human guard, the aliens had insisted there be no bullets in the guns worn by the security people. [Bullets may have been a symbol covering all loaded weapons.] The security people ignored that demand, and they all died from head wounds -- which left no evidence of how they had died. The aliens even killed the scientists they were teaching. [On Knapp's broadcast last week, Lazar said he was told he was one of the replacements: George Knapp: The dangers associated with 115 [the alien element] and anti-matter may be the reason Lazar was hired to work at S-4. There was an accident, he says, back in April 1987, an accident that was passed off as an unannounced nuclear test. Robert Lazar: Some people got killed. I was told flat out I was one of the people that were to replace these guys.] Responding to a caller, Lazar says talking about aliens is NOT a touchy subject for him. Aliens exist, he says. [Lear, in an earlier On the Record KLAS-TV broadcast, says Lazar saw aliens.] --- FD 2.00 * Origin: ParaNet Administration =->Voice 303-232-8303<-= (1:104/428) SEEN-BY: 19/19 101/667 104/422 428 108/110 114/37 115/876 120/80 SEEN-BY: 132/113 133/107 138/111 140/32 141/790 147/66 231/40 SEEN-BY: 252/18 265/12 268/102 283/630 304/1 3 363/17 371/10 SEEN-BY: 382/33 1063/304 3607/20 30163/22 150 401 170/417 22 Nov 89 20:56:00 ~From: Michael Corbin To: Michael Corbin Subj: Update: Area 51 Attr: ------------------------------------------------ <...Continued from previous message> 8. Time of Saucer Test Flights: The tests of the saucers at S-4 are Wednesday nights. Lazar says he was fired because he showed people where and when these tests were performed. 9. Who Pilots the Test Flights? Lazar says the experimental UFO flights at S-4 are flown either by remote control or by human pilots -- not by the aliens. 10. Origin of the Saucers at S-4: The alien vehicles Lazar saw up close in hangars come from "another world: "the fourth planet out from Zeta Reticulum II [sp?], a binary system." [Same as on Betty Hill's map?] 11. Description of the Saucers: He says he touched one of the nine UFOs and even stood in its doorway. He says the saucers mostly appeared "like new" -- one of them looking like the Billy Meier saucer. [On George Knapp's recent series "UFOs: The Best Evidence" (KLAS-TV, Las Vegas), Lazar says one of the saucers "looked like it was hit with some sort of a projectile. It had a large hole in the bottom and a large hole in the top with the metal bent out like some sort of, you know, large caliber 4- or 5-inch had gone through it."] The inside of one craft appears made of wax and then cooled off, all like a cast or mold of one thing with no rough edges. Inside were small chairs, one or one and one-half feet, as though made for little kids. (Compare with George Knapp's new Roswell witness who said on Knapp's nine-segment broadcast that a Roswell funeral home worker had told him the military had purchased all of the "baby or youth caskets" in stock for the purpose of holding the Roswell aliens.) 12. Nine S-4 Saucers Extraterrestrial -- Not Earthly: The nine disks he saw up close -- including the one he worked on -- were not earthly and were definitely extraterrestrial. Lazar can't say whether or not the other disks he saw at a distance during testing [seen on video presented in George Knapp's broadcasts] are man-made or extraterrestrial. 13. Physics of the Saucers at S-4: Lazar says the vehicle attaches itself to a distorted portion of space-time and returns with the distortion. It's a new physics. The vehicles brought a space-time warp with them. Lazar says the propulsion technology should properly remain classified, since everything there is looked at from a weapons point of view. A lot is directly applicable to weapons systems, and he has no intention of releasing it, he says. But he says the craft uses gravity as a lens and the power source is an anti-matter reactor. Two Modes of Travel for Saucers at S-4: 1) When traveling around the surface of the planet, the vehicles balance on a gravity wave or ride a wave like a cork on the ocean. In this mode they are unstable and are affected by the weather. 2) For space travel, they use gravity generators. But if they fly around the surface of Earth using this mode, they may flip over, a phenomenon Lazar says has frequently been observed in past sightings in the published UFO literature. Two gravities: A & B. Gravity A works on an atomic scale whose interaction is small and has to do with fuel -- the alien Element 115 used for the disks. Gravity B works on a macro scale. The gravitational field is OUT OF PHASE with [unknown ?] and is like a wave generator. It is LONGITUDINAL generation -- not spherical, as a caller suggested. 14. Project Aurora: "Aurora," says Lazar, distinguishing it from any UFOs, is the replacement for the SR-71 plane. It uses a three-mile runway and makes a sound like continuous explosions. It has speeds up to Mach 10. 15. No Alien Cattle Mutilations? As far as HE knows, Lazar says, there is no alien UFO tie-in with cattle mutilations. 16. Few Abductees? More persons claim to be abductees than have actually been abducted, suggests Lazar. 17. No Blue Diamond Entry Way for Saucers: Notwithstanding UFO watchers congregating at Blue Diamond, Lazar says there is only a gravity anomaly around Blue Diamond, not an entry way for saucers into our universe. 18. Other Physics Comments By Lazar: Time travel: GRAVITY affects time. Moving FORWARD in time is "a breeze": All you need do is get close to a gravitational field. Moving back in time MIGHT also be possible. Some physicists today, says Lazar, invoke superstring theories to simply add another dimension to the universe whenever they can't explain something. Referring to laser fusion experiments as "stupid," Lazar refers to a location where they have been conducted. Lazar also speaks of a process of squeezing plutonium. In response to a caller's question, Lazar says M-42 is a galaxy. 19. Lazar says George Knapp's two-hour program on KLAS-TV, Channel 8 in Las Vegas, this Saturday, 11/25/89, 8:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m., will contain "much more information" than Knapp's recent nine-part, two-hour UFO broadcasts last week. ================================================================================ This is contained in a file called 1122LACO.UFO in the Library. --- FD 2.00 * Origin: ParaNet Administration =->Voice 303-232-8303<-= (1:104/428) SEEN-BY: 19/19 101/667 104/422 428 108/110 114/37 115/876 120/80 SEEN-BY: 132/113 133/107 138/111 140/32 141/790 147/66 231/40 SEEN-BY: 252/18 265/12 268/102 283/630 304/1 3 363/17 371/10 SEEN-BY: 382/33 1063/304 3607/20 30163/22 150 401 181/417 24 Nov 89 21:29:41 ~From: Cyro Lord To: All Subj: Antimatter Drives and Area 51 Attr: ------------------------------------------------ ~From: cyrill@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Cyro Lord) Date: 24 Nov 89 20:44:28 GMT Organization: ALPHA Comm. Dev. Corp., Aurora, Co. Message-ID: <2261@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM> Newsgroups: info.paranet >From: macleod@drivax.UUCP (MacLeod) In article <265@oasis.mrcu> paj@mrcu (Paul Johnson) writes: :A couple of months ago I read Robert Forward's book "Mirror Matter" in :which he suggests that the practical use of antimatter is now :possible. Are his ideas impractical? If not, what is being done :about them? Glad you asked about antimatter. According to a series of reports on two Las Vegas television stations (there is a two-hour special coming on 11-25 for those in the LV area) one Robert Lazar, formerly employed by the government at the mysterious Area 51, says that the US government has 500 pounds of element 115, which somehow produces antimatter when irradiated. This fuel is used to drive waveguide-type gravity amplifiers which are the FTL drive components of nine alien spacecraft stored in hangars out at Area 51 (the supersecret testing grounds also known as "Dreamland" in the middle of the Nellis AFB bombing range about 65 miles northeast of Las Vegas). From his brief description of how the drives operate, they seem to create local black-hole strength gravity gradients which slow down time and cause a space-fold quickly traversible by the spacecraft. Lazar says he was hired to continue covert research into these spacecraft and their engineering infrastructure after a former team of scientists had screwed the pooch with a batch of element 115, forcing the AEC to hurridly announce an "unscheduled" atomic test at Dreamland. Don't flame me, call KLAS-TV in Vegas if you're curious. They will be selling copies of the 2-hour special, due to the outpouring of interest in it - stimulated by word of mouth and news propagated by ParaNet. For some odd reason the national media have not paid any attention... You can also get on the ParaNet mailing list by sending a note to: scicom!infopara Michael Sloan MacLeod (amdahl!drivax!macleod) (This article is from the 'misc.headlines' newsgroup of USENET. If this is a repost, please excuse the repost. -Cyro) -- <---------------------------++++++++++++++++++-----------------------------> Cyro Lord Alpha Comm. Dev. Corp. - DOMAIN cyrill@scicom.alphacdc.com UUCP {ncar,nbires,boulder,isis}!scicom!cyrill Corn can't expect Justice from a court of chickens. (African Proverb) --- ConfMail V4.00 * Origin: Paranet - The world's most important computer network (1:30163/150) SEEN-BY: 19/19 101/667 104/422 428 108/110 114/37 115/876 120/80 SEEN-BY: 132/113 133/107 138/111 140/32 141/790 147/66 231/40 SEEN-BY: 252/18 265/12 268/102 283/630 304/1 3 363/17 371/10 SEEN-BY: 382/33 1063/304 3607/20 30163/22 100 150 401 191/417 25 Nov 89 22:25:00 ~From: Don Allen To: Jim Speiser Subj: Re:Newest Release.. Attr: ------------------------------------------------ Jim-Great approach, Don! I wish more people would do that. But when you hand it out.. @ YES I DID! I did mention that it was unconfirmed. I may have an open mind,but it ain't so open that my brains fall out! Fact is,one of the people that I handed the releases to is a Naval Commander (reservist). He was real interested,but didn't say much. I was particularly amused when he asked that if anything else came out that he would like to see it.. Jim- WHERE'S DA BEEF???? ....... VERY good question Jim....The LEFT side of my brain is asking the same thing,however the RIGHT side is leaning heavily towards considering it as more than true. Lazar's claims sure *seem* more than credible... Sounds confusing,I know..but I keep the balance by continuing to look for the "outpoints" of Lazar's story..things I'm mulling over: Release- "In response to callers who want independently to check up on Lazar, he says his "colorful" background has already been checked by George Knapp of KLAS-TV, who had traveled to Los Alamos Laboratories and had spoken to former Lazar colleagues, who confirmed he really had worked there -- in spite of Los Alamos itself denying the fact of Lazar's employment with them. (Knapp's UFO broadcast displayed a page from a 1982 Los Alamos Labs internal phone book, listing Robert Lazar.) @ Thats SOUNDS plausible..but how do we actually *know* that Knapp checked up on him? Is there any documentation that Knapp can actually SHOW (read-> Hard copy) that Lazar has worked the places he's claimed to? Release- Caller Bill Cooper, who says he has talked to Lazar for over a year, says that by talking to persons at Lawrence Livermore Laboratory and at another facility, he and associates have confirmed Lazar's previous work in physics at the places Lazar specified. Lazar replied he was not aware of this checking done by Cooper. @ Which Bill Cooper is this? Is this THE Bill Cooper who was (to put it politely) kicked off Paranet for leaving inflammatory statements to others? And if so,what credibility do we (users,Paranet) assign to him? Are HIS "facts" checkable? Have they been in the past? Release- Lazar says he has 25 people each wanting independently to check him out, but he will not allow that. @ I can understand that. But how about a panel of 5 reputable people? Certainly Dr Stanton Friedman should be one of the panel.. Release- He says neither REECO (Reynolds Electrical and Engineering Co., Inc.) nor EG&G -- each a well-known U.S. Department of Energy Test Site contractor -- has people at S-4, that those persons' clearances are at most Q-Clearances, while his own clearance is "38 levels above Q-Clearance." The closest to S-4 that REECO or EG&G people physically... @ Whew..How is anyone supposed to verify that? Maybe,just maybe the others that worked with Lazar will come forth and support his story. --- QuickBBS v2.04 * Origin: Gallifrey - ParaNet Nu(sm) - Orlando, Florida (407)273-9104 SEEN-BY: 19/19 101/667 104/422 428 114/37 115/876 120/80 132/113 SEEN-BY: 133/107 138/111 140/32 141/790 147/66 231/40 252/18 SEEN-BY: 265/12 268/102 283/630 304/1 3 363/17 371/10 382/33 SEEN-BY: 1063/304 3607/20 30163/3 22 150 401 194/417 26 Nov 89 15:07:00 ~From: Michael Corbin To: John H. Chalmers Jr. Subj: 115,Etc. Attr: ------------------------------------------------ > (2) Element 115: I don't know any reason why 115 > would be useful in creating > an antigravity field or creating antimattter, except > possibly as an energy > source in some sort of fission reactor. There is a > predicted quantum mechanical > "Island of Stability" around atomic numbers 112-116, but > more recent > calculations suggest that none of these elements would be > stable enough to be > isolated in macroscopic amounts. In contrast, only a few > years ago some > physicists thought that these elements might have half- > lives in the millions or > billions of years. Thank you for bringing this up. I was hoping that some of our physics readers would jump on this. Could you go further into the explanation about the instability of the elements between 112 and 116? Furthermore, Lazar claims that the vessel uses that in combination with a wave guide which, in his diagram, is shown protruding from the top part of the reactor and protracting to the top of the vessel with an antenna of a sort where it terminates. At the bottom of the vessel is where the gravity amplifier is located. Also, what are tachyons and how could they figure into this scenario. Is it true that gravity could travel twice the speed of light? > Antimatter is made today in small amounts; beams of > positrons and antiprotons > are used in particle accelerators. Neutral anti-hydrogen > (positrons orbiting > antiprotons) would be hard to store, but certainly > synthesizable. It would be a > great power source when it mutually annihilated with normal > matter. How could this work in propulsion? Based upon what has been said thus far by Lazar, could you comment on your feelings about his credibility as a physicist and his theories regarding the overall implication of this. Thanks for your time and contribution to this discussion. Michael Corbin --- FD 2.00 * Origin: ParaNet Administration =->Voice 303-232-8303<-= (1:104/428) SEEN-BY: 19/19 101/667 104/422 428 114/37 115/876 120/80 132/113 SEEN-BY: 133/107 138/111 140/32 141/790 147/66 231/40 252/18 SEEN-BY: 265/12 268/102 283/630 304/1 3 363/17 371/10 382/33 SEEN-BY: 1063/304 3607/20 30163/3 22 150 401 198/417 27 Nov 89 04:28:00 ~From: Robert Klinn To: All Subj: S-4 Worker Backs Up Lazar's Claims Attr: ------------------------------------------------ Six "Scared-To-Death" S-4 Workers Reportedly Meet Outside the Nevada Test Site at Lathrop Wells to Unite and Join Lazar's Expose of Alien Saucers On KVEG-AM Radio in Las Vegas, on The Billy Goodman Happening, 11/24/89, 10:00 p.m. to 1:00 a.m., with Robert Lazar on the line, another caller introduces himself as "a colleague in Lazar's department." Calling himself "MW" for Mercury Worker [Mercury is the military town inside the Test Site], he distinguishes his work -- "hands-on" -- from Lazar's. MW says he is a construction worker, installing and constructing. He says he and others like him work in S-4 -- especially underground -- in deep sections. "We all know a lot." "Someone had to install the hangars." "There is more than tunnels -- everything you can imagine -- cause we did everything." He says people are now meeting in small groups to talk about backing up Lazar. There was a meeting of six workers the night of 11/24/89, he says, to discuss whether or not they should publicly say what they saw. The five others are scared to death, he says. He himself sounds scared on the telephone. They are trying to get it where it will be safe for them to join Lazar, he says. The MW's are "putting something together to join you." There are two more MW workers supporting you, he says. "We got together at Lathrop Wells [a small town close to the southwest end of the Nevada Test Site] and said we got to do something." "Only two out of the six are willing to do something." "The guys are for you." Although encouraged, Lazar points out there's a ten-year jail term for them if they talk. --- QuickBBS v2.04 * Origin: -==- Denver, CO (303)232-6115 (1:104/422) SEEN-BY: 19/19 101/667 104/422 428 114/37 115/876 120/80 132/113 SEEN-BY: 133/107 138/111 140/32 141/790 147/66 231/40 252/18 SEEN-BY: 265/12 268/102 283/630 304/1 3 363/17 371/10 382/33 SEEN-BY: 1063/304 3607/20 30163/3 22 150 401 228/417 28 Nov 89 19:19:44 ~From: John H. Chalmers Jr. To: All Subj: Reply to Mike Corbin Attr: ------------------------------------------------ ~From: chalmers@violet.berkeley.edu (John H. Chalmers Jr.) Date: 28 Nov 89 02:47:24 GMT Message-ID: <1510@taos.AlphaCDC.COM> Newsgroups: info.paranet Mike: Based on what I have read on ParaNet, I can't take Lazar's physics very seriously. I suspect that a professional physicist would feel that I am understating the situation. I'm a biologist, not a quantum mechanic so most of what I know is from secondary sources like textbooks, Scientific American, New Scientist, The Sciences, or Stephen Hawking's recent best seller. Physics isn't my specialty, but I'll try to answer your questions. Now if somebody were to offer me a piece of purported alien tissue or a culture of an ET microbe, I think I'd know how to authenticate it or how to find people who could. Elements decay by three principal routes, alpha emission, spontaneous fission and beta decay. The three controlling forces, the Electromagnetic,the Strong Nuclear and the Weak Nuclear, are well understood with theory agreeing with experiment to nine or ten decimal places in many cases. The computational magnitude of systems as complex as heavy elements precludes exact calculations even on supercomputers, but the best approximations suggest that elements of atomic number around 114 are more stable than any nearby because the nucleons (protons and neutrons) form closed or nearly closed shells. This phenomenon is analogous to the chemical inertness of helium, neon and argon because their electrons form closed shells (outside the nucleus) and there is little tendency to arrange them in other configurations so that they could form bonds to other atoms and make compounds. However, this stability is not absolute and atoms decay spontaneously with half-lives (the time for 50% to change) ranging from more than 10 to the 33 years for Hydrogen to about 10-23 seconds for some extremely short lived isotopes decaying by the Strong Force. Elements with half lives of weeks or months can be isolated in weighable amounts though doing so is difficult and dangerous, but isotopes with shorter half-lives can only be identified by their radioactive decay products. Only a few atoms of Element 109 have been made so far, but the energies of the alpha particles emitted along its decay chain made identification unambiguous. It's half-life is somewhere between a millisecond and a microsecond. Elements 110 and 111 are expected to be even less stable, so experimenters hope to jump into the Stability region where half-lives are calculated to be longer. Longer might mean 10-6 seconds or it might mean minutes or seconds. I don't know what the latest predictions are. The only way we have to make such heavy nuclei is accelerate atoms of medium weight elements such as calcium, carbon, etc. and smash them into heavy atoms such as uranium. It takes a lot of energy to overcome the electromagnetic repulsion to get the nuclei close enough so that the very short range (10-13 cm) Strong Force can bind the compound nucleus together. If the atoms have too little energy, they won't fuse, but if they have too much, they won't stay together. The new nucleus is only marginally stable at best and will fission if it has too much energy. Another problem is that the new nucleus may not have enough neutrons to be stable. If so, it will undergo beta decay as well. If any elements around 114 or higher can be made they will be important confirmation of the standard model. They will also have interesting chemistry since they will have more electrons than any know elements and some of these electrons will be in g orbitals with somewhat different properties from those in d and f orbitals. Tachyons are hypothetical particles with negative or imaginary rest mass and always travel faster than light. They have never been observed and no one knows how to search for them. Since they travel faster than light, their interactions with normal matter would conflict with relativity. Gregory Benford, a physicist and award winning SF author, has written a serious paper about a "Tachyonic Anti-Telephone" which would allow one to place a call to the past. Needless to say, this would violate causality as we understand it. Invoking tachyons to explain some unknown effect is committing the fallacy known as "Ignotus per ignotum," using one unknown to explain another. If and when tachyons are discovered, and assuming they have the requisite properties, then they may be used to explain unusual events. Now to antimatter: I didn't mean to imply that particle accelerators bombard anti-protons with positrons. High energy electrons collide with positrons and protons with antiprotons to produce exotic particles such as the W and Z mesons (the field quanta of the weak force). if anti-Hydrogen and normal Hydrogen come into contact, the positrons and the electrons will mutually annihilate to generate two gamma rays of .51 Mev. The antiprotons and protons of the nuclei will also annihilate, but they do so in a more complex fashion which produces a lot of intermediate particles. The end result is the conversion of the mass of both the normal and the anti-matter to energy according to Einstein's equation, E= mc2 (E=energy, m=totalmass, c=speed of light). The resulting gamma rays could be reflected off a heavy shield and used for propulsion as a high energy photonic drive. Such as system seems to be the only feasible energy source for interstellar flight according to the articles I've seen. Small amounts of antimatter could be made if anybody wanted to. For powering interstellar spacecraft travelling at relativistic velocities, thousands or millions of tons will be required, alas. The energy released in ordinary fusion or fission reactions is only a small fraction of this energy and comes from the binding energies of the nuclei: fission and fusion are the nuclear analogs of fermentation, while matter-antimatter annihilation is analogous to terminal oxidation. The nuclear energies are about a million times larger than the chemical energies, however, and this is why terrestrial organisms don't/can't use nuclear power in their metabolism. The yet undiscovered field particle of the gravitational force, the fourth of the known forces, is the graviton. It would travel at the speed of light. I don't know of any justification for the notion that gravitational effects propagate at 2*c. Although gravitational radiation has not been observed directly, certain binary star systems are losing energy at the rate calculated for gravitational radiation, so physicists are reasonable confident about the standard model. Gravitational radiation antennas with sufficient sensitivity are being constructed, so direct observation could occur soon. Wave guides are conductive tubes which direct electromagnetic waves (radio waves, light, etc). I have no idea if a gravitational wave guide or amplifier is even theoretically possible. The people to ask are gravitational theorists such as Kip Thorne, John Archibald Wheeler or Robert Forward (who also writes SF). Forward has designed some hypothetical anti-gravity devices based on standard physics. One involves passing the mass of a neutron star though a toroidal coil the size of a football field in a millisecond to neutralize the earth's gravity field in the center by generating the gravitational analog of the magnetic field. The other methods are even less practical. The problem is that gravity is 10 +43 times weaker than the Strong Force and thus hard to study in the laboratory. One wishes to manipulate masses of at least planetary size. Also, the gravitational field is always attractive and a function of the geometry of space-time i hope all of this wordage answers your questions. These are fascinating areas and one can go on and on. --John --- ConfMail V4.00 * Origin: Paranet - The world's most important computer network (1:30163/150) SEEN-BY: 19/19 101/667 104/422 428 114/37 115/876 120/80 132/113 SEEN-BY: 133/107 138/111 140/32 141/790 147/66 231/40 252/18 SEEN-BY: 265/12 268/102 283/630 304/1 3 363/17 371/10 382/33 SEEN-BY: 1063/304 3607/20 30163/3 22 100 150 401 251/417 29 Nov 89 18:45:28 ~From: Usenet News To: All Subj: Lazar and his Amazing Saucers Attr: ------------------------------------------------ ~Date: 29 Nov 89 20:47:15 GMT Message-ID: <1519@taos.AlphaCDC.COM> Newsgroups: info.paranet Hello, paranet friends, I have been reading the newsletter from paranet for some time now. This is my first posting. +I just had an interesting thought...if you had been sitting on the secret +of S-4 and dreamland for a long while, and had instructions to release the +information to the public only if it would not cause a crisis, what better +time to stage-leak the real story, as most of Eastern Europe and the Soviet +Union call off the cold war? Perhaps what Reagan was telling Gorbachev +in their summit conferences is that we'll all hang separately if we don't +hang together. + +More paranoia from, + +Michael Sloan MacLeod (amdahl!drivax!macleod) Regarding Lazar, I just wonder about the fact that we are on the eve of a summit of great significance to the entire world. As much as we would all like to believe this intriguing tale (since so many questions would be answered), I have to think that our government has a powerful motivation at the moment for promoting this kind of idea. Given the credulity of Soviets on this subject, how likely is it that the Soviet intelligence community is going crazy right now trying to verify this story before the summit? Is this all designed to throw Gorbachev off balance? If our government tried to announce such a thing (supposing it is false) they would be innundated with requests for demonstrations and explanations, which would ruin the ruse. But the region where these events are alleged to have occurred would be under constant scrutiny by Soviet agents, given the history of the area. The agents assigned to the area probably observed the news programs with great interest. Then there is the involvement of Cooper. Readers will have to judge for themselves the significance of this. Here is my scenario: Lazar works for some intelligence outfit. His background was wiped out (ineffectively) in the hopes that the attempt to erase his history would give credibility to his story. Others that come forward are part of the same effort. Some are actual believers who have been convinced by the thoroughness of the deception. The information is released in controlled packets, perhaps some intelligence leaks were provided directly to Soviet agents to prepare them to be receptive when the television program came on. It all is building up so that the climax of the scam occurs just before the summit. The result is that Gorbachev is off balance and Bush has the advantage. I think this is much more likely than the possibility that what Lazar says is true, for these reasons: 1) If this project were so top secret as Lazar says, he would never have appeared on that program. Lazar said they knew he was going to leak in advance. If that were true he would have been dead. They would not wait until now to take sniper shots at him, and if they did, they wouldn't miss. 2) Bill Cooper has discredited himself, and he appears to be involved. 3) After reading on the subject, I am inclined to believe that the spiritual/supernatural/extradimensional aspect is the most significant. I could go into this, but let me just say that I too have been reading Dimensions, and the ideas presented there make more sense than anything else I have seen on the subject. This story does not fit the scenario. Instead it fits into a neat materialistic mold which would allow the military to control the phenomena by purely physical means. This does not mean it is necessarily bogus, it just makes me suspicious. It is too neat; too easy and pat. 4) The gov't has a history of "leaking" bogus UFO stories. 5) They are motivated to try to maintain the upper hand by the significance of this summit, in light of political developments. This whole thing may have been generated directly in response to developments in Eastern Europe. 6) The whole thing may be relatively unimportant to our intelligence community - just another little game to try to keep the other guys confused, and good practice at generating disinformation. Sorry, it's just too bizarre to believe without tons of corroboration from many independent sources. Cheers, --Steve -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; swarren@convex.COM --- ConfMail V4.00 * Origin: Paranet - The world's most important computer network (1:30163/150) SEEN-BY: 19/19 101/667 104/422 428 114/37 115/876 120/80 132/113 SEEN-BY: 133/107 138/111 140/32 141/790 147/66 231/40 252/18 SEEN-BY: 265/12 268/102 283/630 304/1 3 363/17 371/10 382/33 SEEN-BY: 1063/304 3607/20 30163/3 22 100 150 401 257/417 01 Dec 89 02:31:53 ~From: Usenet News To: All Subj: Lazar and his Amazing Saucers Attr: ------------------------------------------------ ~Date: 29 Nov 89 20:47:15 GMT Message-ID: <1519@taos.AlphaCDC.COM> Newsgroups: info.paranet Hello, paranet friends, I have been reading the newsletter from paranet for some time now. This is my first posting. +I just had an interesting thought...if you had been sitting on the secret +of S-4 and dreamland for a long while, and had instructions to release the +information to the public only if it would not cause a crisis, what better +time to stage-leak the real story, as most of Eastern Europe and the Soviet +Union call off the cold war? Perhaps what Reagan was telling Gorbachev +in their summit conferences is that we'll all hang separately if we don't +hang together. + +More paranoia from, + +Michael Sloan MacLeod (amdahl!drivax!macleod) Regarding Lazar, I just wonder about the fact that we are on the eve of a summit of great significance to the entire world. As much as we would all like to believe this intriguing tale (since so many questions would be answered), I have to think that our government has a powerful motivation at the moment for promoting this kind of idea. Given the credulity of Soviets on this subject, how likely is it that the Soviet intelligence community is going crazy right now trying to verify this story before the summit? Is this all designed to throw Gorbachev off balance? If our government tried to announce such a thing (supposing it is false) they would be innundated with requests for demonstrations and explanations, which would ruin the ruse. But the region where these events are alleged to have occurred would be under constant scrutiny by Soviet agents, given the history of the area. The agents assigned to the area probably observed the news programs with great interest. Then there is the involvement of Cooper. Readers will have to judge for themselves the significance of this. Here is my scenario: Lazar works for some intelligence outfit. His background was wiped out (ineffectively) in the hopes that the attempt to erase his history would give credibility to his story. Others that come forward are part of the same effort. Some are actual believers who have been convinced by the thoroughness of the deception. The information is released in controlled packets, perhaps some intelligence leaks were provided directly to Soviet agents to prepare them to be receptive when the television program came on. It all is building up so that the climax of the scam occurs just before the summit. The result is that Gorbachev is off balance and Bush has the advantage. I think this is much more likely than the possibility that what Lazar says is true, for these reasons: 1) If this project were so top secret as Lazar says, he would never have appeared on that program. Lazar said they knew he was going to leak in advance. If that were true he would have been dead. They would not wait until now to take sniper shots at him, and if they did, they wouldn't miss. 2) Bill Cooper has discredited himself, and he appears to be involved. 3) After reading on the subject, I am inclined to believe that the spiritual/supernatural/extradimensional aspect is the most significant. I could go into this, but let me just say that I too have been reading Dimensions, and the ideas presented there make more sense than anything else I have seen on the subject. This story does not fit the scenario. Instead it fits into a neat materialistic mold which would allow the military to control the phenomena by purely physical means. This does not mean it is necessarily bogus, it just makes me suspicious. It is too neat; too easy and pat. 4) The gov't has a history of "leaking" bogus UFO stories. 5) They are motivated to try to maintain the upper hand by the significance of this summit, in light of political developments. This whole thing may have been generated directly in response to developments in Eastern Europe. 6) The whole thing may be relatively unimportant to our intelligence community - just another little game to try to keep the other guys confused, and good practice at generating disinformation. Sorry, it's just too bizarre to believe without tons of corroboration from many independent sources. Cheers, --Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------- {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; swarren@convex.COM --- ConfMail V4.00 * Origin: Paranet - The world's most important computer network (1:30163/150) SEEN-BY: 19/19 101/667 104/422 428 114/37 115/876 120/80 132/113 SEEN-BY: 133/107 138/111 140/32 141/790 147/66 231/40 252/18 SEEN-BY: 265/12 268/102 283/630 304/1 3 363/17 371/10 382/33 SEEN-BY: 1063/304 3607/20 30163/3 22 100 150 401 259/417 01 Dec 89 02:33:02 ~From: MacLeod To: All Subj: (none) Attr: ------------------------------------------------ ~From: drivax!macleod@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (MacLeod) ~Date: 30 Nov 89 07:47:08 GMT Message-ID: <1521@taos.AlphaCDC.COM> Newsgroups: info.paranet Dear Friends, I saw this article in the sci.space USENET newsgroup. I think it's some straightfaced bs put up to parody the Area 51 article, but I could be wrong. The article had a strange-looking path line, and it seemed to have been gateed from the Internet. Article 15143 of sci.space: Path: drivax!amdahl!apple!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!wuarchive!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!ucsd !ucbvax!FNAL.BITNET!HIGGINS From: HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET (W.T. Higgins) ~Newsgroups: sci.space Subject: Re: Antimatter Drives and Area 51 Message-ID: Date: 28 Nov 89 15:47:00 GMT Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Organization: The Internet Lines: 61 Michael Sloan MacLeod posted a discussion about: +Robert Lazar, formerly employed by the government at the mysterious +Area 51, says that the US government has 500 pounds of element 115, +which somehow produces antimatter when irradiated. Lazar is pulling the wool over somebody's eyes. There were less than 300 pounds of element 115, and probably less now. Samples were tested in various university and government labs, including mine. Yes, it does give off antimatter when bombarded with the proper radiation. If you hit it with negative muons, 115 (I'm talking about 287, the most abundant isotope, here. Inconvenient not having a name for the element, but there never was general agreement on it.) transitions to an excited state that decays into a positron, a nucleus of 114, and an antideuteron (bound state of an antiproton and an antineutron). The 114 is unstable, and in a few milliseconds it gives off another antideuteron and a pair of positrons. And so forth, down the chart of the nuclides. Every once in a while a decay in this chain will throw off a neutron, just to keep things balanced. This had everybody excited for a while. You might remember the big *Popular Mechanics* article about it. Unfortunately, it turned out to be a bust. We showered muons on our 115 sample rods for weeks on end. The decay chain ends, after a rather short time, at 106Pd. And Pd has a tremendous affinity for hydrogen, and anti-hydrogen. We had made a bunch of antimatter, but we couldn't get it out. The deuterons were stuck within the Pd lattice. All we could collect were a few deuterons coming off atoms on the surface, and positrons, which we can get anywhere. And instead of an exotic heavy element, we were left with an inert lump of a metal anybody can buy on the commodities market. Remember the joke about the alchemist who could turn gold into lead? Having established that it wasn't a miracle energy source, most labs pretty much lost interest. At mine, we took the experiment apart and went on to more interesting work. The sample rods were lying around the lab for a while, though, come to think of it, I haven't seen them in a couple of years. I suppose somebody scrounged them for another experiment. +This fuel is used to drive waveguide-type gravity amplifiers which +are the FTL drive components of nine alien spacecraft Eight. One crashed during tests in August 1981. Three of the remaining eight have now been dismantled. +stored in hangars +out at Area 51 (the supersecret testing grounds also known as "Dreamland" +in the middle of the Nellis AFB bombing range about 65 miles northeast of +Las Vegas). Not *too* supersecret. See the book *Dreamland: A New Age of Flight Testing*, by Richard Adams Locke, Aero Books, 1985. A lot of nice photos of the place. +From his brief description of how the drives operate, they +seem to create local black-hole strength gravity gradients which slow down +time and cause a space-fold quickly traversible by the spacecraft. Get real. The correct spelling is "traversable." Bill Higgins +------------------------------------------------+ | These opinions are not shared by my employer, | | or perhaps by anybody else. | +------------------------------------------------+ Michael Sloan MacLeod --- ConfMail V4.00 * Origin: Paranet - The world's most important computer network (1:30163/150) SEEN-BY: 19/19 101/667 104/422 428 114/37 115/876 120/80 132/113 SEEN-BY: 133/107 138/111 140/32 141/790 147/66 231/40 252/18 SEEN-BY: 265/12 268/102 283/630 304/1 3 363/17 371/10 382/33 SEEN-BY: 1063/304 3607/20 30163/3 22 100 150 401 272/417 02 Dec 89 22:22:00 ~From: Clark Matthews To: Usenet News Subj Re: Lazar And His Amazing Saucers Attr: ------------------------------------------------ > 3) After reading on the subject, I am inclined to believe > that the spiritual/supernatural/extradimensional aspect is > the most significant. I could go into this, but let me > just say that I too have been reading Dimensions, and the > ideas presented there make more sense than anything else I > have seen on the subject. This story does not fit the scenario. > Instead it fits into a neat materialistic mold which would > allow the military to control the phenomena by purely > physical means. This does not mean it is necessarily > bogus, it just makes me suspicious. It is too neat; too easy > and pat. Hi Steve. Well, like you I have been quite taken with Dr. Vallee's hypothesis in _Dimensions_. But let's not get carried away here... A few days back, pre-Crash (Alpha's hard disk, not the markets) I wrote a semi-tongue-in-cheek riposte to someone about how unimportant it is who or what builds and operates the UFOs we see, hear of, and investigate. Whether they are built & operated by elves, pixies, leprechauns, Titans, Nordics or whatever is not the point. The point (to my mind, anyway) is that they print on radar, leave leave dents in the ground when they land, occasionally scorch things and let people get close enough to touch them -- even get inside. They are material things. Whether they come from Zeta II, a parallel universe or Middle Earth, they are physical objects. Even though these devices and their makers/masters may seem to us as present-day astronauts must appear to the most primitive Bushmen, I really don't allow myself to doubt their physical existence or impute anything supernatural or religious to them. I do not think Dr. Vallee does either -- as least as far as I read his book. It may be that the U.S. has some of these things somewhere and has discovered that they are as real -- yet ephemeral -- as a leprechaun's pot 'o gold. I.e.: They've got them, but they can't DO anything with them. Nevertheless they could exist. And Lazar may be telling the truth. If your doubts center around Lazar's still being alive -- in other words, why was he allowed to "leak & live". Well, people like Lazar are double-edged swords. Nothing gets public attention faster than an untimely death. Especially if it's the death of someone who's been telling a story. It looks like Cooper's theories (which coincide with Lazar's revalations) may stem from Lazar himself. So if Lazar is authentic -- if his references check -- then the Cooper sideshow may be just that. A sideshow, and not the main event. Anyway, until Lazar is discredited -- or discredits himself -- I'm definitely prepared to stay with this one. Best, Clark --- QuickBBS v2.04 * Origin: -==- Denver, CO (303)232-6115 (1:104/422) SEEN-BY: 19/19 101/667 104/422 428 114/37 115/876 120/80 132/113 SEEN-BY: 133/107 138/111 140/32 141/790 147/66 231/40 252/18 SEEN-BY: 265/12 268/102 283/630 304/1 3 363/17 371/10 382/33 SEEN-BY: 1063/304 3607/20 30163/3 22 150 401 295/417 04 Dec 89 12:31:54 ~From: Usenet News To: All Subj: Lazar and his Amazing Saucers Attr: ------------------------------------------------ ~Date: 29 Nov 89 20:47:15 GMT Message-ID: <1519@taos.AlphaCDC.COM> Newsgroups: info.paranet Hello, paranet friends, I have been reading the newsletter from paranet for some time now. This is my first posting. +I just had an interesting thought...if you had been sitting on the secret +of S-4 and dreamland for a long while, and had instructions to release the +information to the public only if it would not cause a crisis, what better +time to stage-leak the real story, as most of Eastern Europe and the Soviet +Union call off the cold war? Perhaps what Reagan was telling Gorbachev +in their summit conferences is that we'll all hang separately if we don't +hang together. + +More paranoia from, + +Michael Sloan MacLeod (amdahl!drivax!macleod) Regarding Lazar, I just wonder about the fact that we are on the eve of a summit of great significance to the entire world. As much as we would all like to believe this intriguing tale (since so many questions would be answered), I have to think that our government has a powerful motivation at the moment for promoting this kind of idea. Given the credulity of Soviets on this subject, how likely is it that the Soviet intelligence community is going crazy right now trying to verify this story before the summit? Is this all designed to throw Gorbachev off balance? If our government tried to announce such a thing (supposing it is false) they would be innundated with requests for demonstrations and explanations, which would ruin the ruse. But the region where these events are alleged to have occurred would be under constant scrutiny by Soviet agents, given the history of the area. The agents assigned to the area probably observed the news programs with great interest. Then there is the involvement of Cooper. Readers will have to judge for themselves the significance of this. Here is my scenario: Lazar works for some intelligence outfit. His background was wiped out (ineffectively) in the hopes that the attempt to erase his history would give credibility to his story. Others that come forward are part of the same effort. Some are actual believers who have been convinced by the thoroughness of the deception. The information is released in controlled packets, perhaps some intelligence leaks were provided directly to Soviet agents to prepare them to be receptive when the television program came on. It all is building up so that the climax of the scam occurs just before the summit. The result is that Gorbachev is off balance and Bush has the advantage. I think this is much more likely than the possibility that what Lazar says is true, for these reasons: 1) If this project were so top secret as Lazar says, he would never have appeared on that program. Lazar said they knew he was going to leak in advance. If that were true he would have been dead. They would not wait until now to take sniper shots at him, and if they did, they wouldn't miss. 2) Bill Cooper has discredited himself, and he appears to be involved. 3) After reading on the subject, I am inclined to believe that the spiritual/supernatural/extradimensional aspect is the most significant. I could go into this, but let me just say that I too have been reading Dimensions, and the ideas presented there make more sense than anything else I have seen on the subject. This story does not fit the scenario. Instead it fits into a neat materialistic mold which would allow the military to control the phenomena by purely physical means. This does not mean it is necessarily bogus, it just makes me suspicious. It is too neat; too easy and pat. 4) The gov't has a history of "leaking" bogus UFO stories. 5) They are motivated to try to maintain the upper hand by the significance of this summit, in light of political developments. This whole thing may have been generated directly in response to developments in Eastern Europe. 6) The whole thing may be relatively unimportant to our intelligence community - just another little game to try to keep the other guys confused, and good practice at generating disinformation. Sorry, it's just too bizarre to believe without tons of corroboration from many independent sources. Cheers, --Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------- {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; swarren@convex.COM --- ConfMail V4.00 * Origin: Paranet - The world's most important computer network (1:30163/150) SEEN-BY: 19/19 101/667 104/422 428 114/37 115/876 120/80 132/113 SEEN-BY: 133/107 138/111 140/32 141/790 147/66 231/40 252/18 SEEN-BY: 265/12 268/102 283/630 304/1 3 363/17 371/10 382/33 SEEN-BY: 1063/304 3607/20 30163/3 22 100 150 401 369/417 11 Dec 89 18:47:49 ~From: infopara@scicom.alphacdc.com To: All Subj: Info-Paranet #94 Attr: ------------------------------------------------ ~From: infopara@scicom.alphacdc.com Date: 11 Dec 89 07:28:28 GMT Message-ID: <2359@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM> Newsgroups: info.paranet ~From: isis!uunet!sparta!sun!esanborn (Ed Sanborn) Mike C., I seemed to have missed 'Info-Paranet #94'. If you could please send an email of this I'd appreciate it. Looking forward to the Video-tapes of Lazar happenings. Please feel free to fill the tapes with misc. at end. Also, what's this business of missing coverage of these broadcasts? Maybe this should be directed at Robert Klinn but it would be a shame if we and quite possibly a tragedy if we aren't able to monitor the complete broadcasts. What is the price status if someone wanted to get copies of the broadcasts from the TV stations? Thanks, Ed Sanborn uunet!sparta!esanborn w: (508) 937-1600 h: (508) 453-5609 --- ConfMail V4.00 * Origin: Paranet - The world's most important computer network (1:30163/150) SEEN-BY: 19/19 101/667 104/422 428 114/37 115/876 120/80 132/113 SEEN-BY: 133/107 138/111 140/32 141/790 147/66 231/40 252/18 SEEN-BY: 265/12 268/102 283/630 304/1 3 363/17 371/10 382/33 SEEN-BY: 1063/304 3607/20 30163/3 22 100 150 401 394/417 14 Dec 89 19:14:53 ~From: infopara@scicom.alphacdc.com To: All Subj: Lazar/115 Attr: ------------------------------------------------ ~From: infopara@scicom.alphacdc.com Date: 14 Dec 89 16:41:19 GMT Message-ID: <2399@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM> Newsgroups: info.paranet ~From: chalmers@violet.berkeley.edu (John H. Chalmers Jr.) Is there any independent confirmation that a nuclear explosion occurred in the atmosphere in 1986 as Lazar claims? The signature of such a blast if due to 115 would be completly different from a fission or fusion explosion. there would be no fission products from an antimatter explosion an dprobably much less induced radioactivity. Is athere any data on this supposed event in Nevada. Try the anti-nuke or environmetal groups. --John --- ConfMail V4.00 * Origin: Paranet(sm) - The world's most important computer network (1:30163/1 SEEN-BY: 19/19 104/422 428 114/37 115/876 120/80 132/113 133/107 SEEN-BY: 138/111 140/32 141/790 147/66 231/40 252/18 265/12 SEEN-BY: 268/102 283/630 304/1 3 363/17 371/10 382/33 1063/304 SEEN-BY: 3607/20 30163/3 22 100 150 401 404/417 15 Dec 89 22:55:00 From: Michael Corbin To: Infopara@scicom.alphacdc.com Subj: Lazar/115 Attr: ------------------------------------------------ > Is there any independent confirmation that a nuclear > explosion occurred > in the atmosphere in 1986 as Lazar claims? The signature of > such a blast > if due to 115 would be completly different from a fission > or fusion > explosion. there would be no fission products from an > antimatter explosion > an dprobably much less induced radioactivity. Is athere any > data on this > supposed event in Nevada. Try the anti-nuke or environmetal > groups. Very good point. This and others aspects are currently being investigated in the Nevada region. Most of the aspects of the historocity of the Air Force's acquisition of 90,000 acres is correct, Lazar seems to rely heavily upon these types of activities as a means to support his claims. However, this does not mean that they are even inter-related to one another or to his experience. I found the land grab inception to Lazar's story very interesting. The way that it was presented to the television public made it sound as though it was very mysterious, however, the Air Force did not say that their authority to do the act of acquiring the land was higher than the United States, but only higher than the Air Force. Surely, other departments of the government are at a higher level than the Air Force, and with this in mind plus the fact that Dreamland has been known to be super-secret for over forty years does not support Lazar's claims. If there was an unscheduled nuclear test in 1987, this may be suspect. I am very interested in that test and whether it was authentic and if there was anything unusual registered by anyone monitoring the atmosphere. [CUT:] Lazar: I don't think that you can ever synthesize it. The amount of -- You essentially have to assemble it by bombarding it with protons; if atom by atom, it would take an infinite amount of power and an infinite amount of time. The substance has to come from a place where super-heavy elements could have been produced naturally. [CUT:] Knapp: And what sort of place is that? [CUT:] Lazar: Next to a much larger sun where there would be greater mass. Maybe a binary star system -- a super-nova -- somewhere where there is just a bigger release of energy to synthesize these things naturally. It has to be a naturally occurring element. [CUT:] Knapp: 115 is the fuel for the anti-matter reactors, he says. By bombarding 115, anti-matter is produced. A kilo of anti-matter could produce the energy equivalent of 46 ten-megaton hydrogen bombs, and comparing the energy potential of anti-matter to, say, the Hoover Dam, would be like comparing planets to grains of sand. 115 could also make one heck of a bomb. [CUT:] Lazar: We're talking about hundreds and hundreds of megatons off a small piece of it. It sounds incredible, but total conversion of matter to energy would release that amount of power. And it isn't that difficult to take -- get the energy out of it. So it's not something you'd ever want to fall into anyone's hands. [CUT:] Knapp: The dangers associated with 115 and anti-matter may be the reason Lazar was hired to work at S-4. There was an accident, he says, back in April 1987, an accident that was passed off as an unannounced nuclear test. [CUT:] Lazar: Some people got killed. I was told flat out I was one of the people that were to replace these guys. [CUT:] Knapp: Is this why the government might be keeping the whole matter a secret? Because of the military potential of alien technology? Lazar says he believes the Soviet Union was once part of our research on the flying disks, but that the U.S. kicked the Soviets out after making some sort of discovery. He also believes the program at S-4 is operated with funds allocated to Star Wars research, but says he can't prove it. Some UFO researchers suspect the government is test flying alien craft so that it can one day master the technology and claim it was made in the good old U.S.A., thus obscuring the possibility of alien visitations. [CUT:] Stanton T. Friedman: I think they have the duty to inform us. At least to the bare bones of what's going on. I don't want technological stuff put out on the table. I mean, I worked on classified projects for 15 years, and I don't think we need another weapon's delivery system. But I think the government does have the responsibility to release information that, indeed, the planet is being visited. Probably it should be done in conjunction with the Soviets. [CUT:] Lazar: I don't think that it will get to that level. They're not going to have a fleet of them and fly them around, and I don't think you need to do that. If you're looking at them from a weapons point of view, you're looking at an incredibly powerful device. You only need one that operates. You don't ever need to come public with it. You may want to learn more about it should it ever break which is -- might be -- what they're doing. [CUT:] Knapp: They've got one -- [CUT:] Lazar: -- Oh, they've got a few. Yeah. [CUT:] Lazar is the first to admit that his story is tough to swallow. He submitted to polygraph exams, has opened up sensitive parts of his personal life, and fully expects to be ridiculed or perhaps punished for his revelations. [END CUT.] _______ [The hypnotherapy discussion of Segment 7 further below has been totally replaced by the following short summary included in the broadcast of 11/25/89. Note that reference to a mind-control technique by Lazar's U.S. government employers has been excised.] Knapp: Lazar wanted to recall further details from reports he says he read at S-4, so he went to Layne Keck, a licensed and experienced hypnotherapist. Keck makes no exaggerated claims about the powers of hypnosis, but he did help dredge up some specifics from the reports. He is confident about that, that Lazar is not making this up. Keck: His subconscious mind believes TOTALLY all of these things. --- FD 2.00 * Origin: ParaNet Administration =->Voice 303-232-8303<-= (1:104/428) SEEN-BY: 19/19 101/667 104/422 428 114/37 115/876 120/80 132/113 SEEN-BY: 133/107 138/111 140/32 141/790 147/66 231/40 252/18 SEEN-BY: 265/12 268/102 283/630 304/1 3 363/17 371/10 382/33 SEEN-BY: 1063/304 3607/20 30163/3 22 150 401 327/417 07 Dec 89 17:13:00 ~From: Robert Klinn To: All Subj: UFOs: The Best Evidence Altered? Attr: ------------------------------------------------ (C) 1989 ParaNet Information Service "UFO's: The Best Evidence": The Altered Version The two versions of "UFO's: The Best Evidence": Version One: Nine parts (10-15 minutes each): November 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, and 16, 1989 Version Two: November 25, 1989 On-air, producer/newsman George Knapp had said the 11/25/89, 8:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m., broadcast of "UFO's: The Best Evidence" (KLAS-TV, Channel 8 in Las Vegas), would include the substance as well as UPDATES of the material broadcast earlier as the nine-part series with the same title. At the end of the ninth segment of the series, he also had said his investigation -- pursuant to physicist Robert Lazar's and others' claims about recovered alien vehicles at Area 51 or S-4 inside the U.S. Government's Nevada Test Site -- "will continue." And earlier in the series, Knapp had said this was "only the beginning," that the investigation is "by no means over." On 11/21/89, 10:00 p.m. until 1:00 a.m., speaking on KVEG 840-AM Radio's Billy Goodman Happening, Lazar himself had said he was informed that Knapp's upcoming 11/25/89, two-hour, KLAS-TV report would contain "much more information" than Knapp's earlier, nine-part broadcasts. But Knapp later told me that although he is personally interested in more UFO material about Area 51, there is no more budget at his station to pursue it. Significant previously-broadcast segments are missing from the 11/25/89 version. Nothing new -- no promised "updates" -- has been added. On the contrary, highly pertinent descriptions by Lazar, hypnotherapist Layne Keck, and Knapp himself have been cut -- in perhaps the most interesting and revealing places. Knapp -- apparently sincere and hardworking -- now gives "time constraints" imposed by the number of commercials that had to be inserted into the 11/25/89 version as the reason for the cuts and the lack of additional material. He justifies the almost entire elimination of Segment Seven (originally broadcast 11/14/89) -- including Lazar's explanations of the alien element 115, time warp and its relation to gravity waves, the production of gravity waves, and the military potential of the alien technology -- by dismissing that material as merely "details." Surprisingly, Knapp graciously said, "I apologize." Military potential -- not only of the recovered alien craft but perhaps of more earthly forces -- may have been revealed by other cuts, including the stunning suspicion by Lazar that "his government employers used some sort of mind control technique to prevent him from disclosing too much about S-4" and the discussion by hypnotherapist Keck of Lazar's possibly being subjected to tremendous fear, threats, and chemicals. And what might be the military implications of this portion of Lazar's statement as broadcast in Segment 6 (11/13/89) but cut from the 11/25/89 version? "One of them looked like it was hit with some sort of a projectile. It had a large hole in the bottom and a large hole in the top with the metal bent out like some sort of, you know, large caliber 4- or 5-inch projectile had gone through it." Was the following stuff cut just to make room for commercials? Knapp: 115 is the fuel for the anti-matter reactors, he says. By bombarding 115, anti-matter is produced. A kilo of anti-matter could produce the energy equivalent of 46 ten-megaton hydrogen bombs, and comparing the energy potential of anti-matter to, say, the Hoover Dam, would be like comparing planets to grains of sand. 115 could also make one heck of a bomb. Lazar: We're talking about hundreds and hundreds of megatons off a small piece of it. It sounds incredible, but total conversion of matter to energy would release that amount of power. And it isn't that difficult to take. . .get the energy out of it. So it's not something you'd ever want to fall into anyone's hands. Knapp: The dangers associated with 115 and anti-matter may be the reason Lazar was hired to work at S-4. There was an accident, he says, back in April 1987. An accident that was passed off as an unannounced nuclear test. Lazar: Some people got killed. I was told flat out I was one of the people that were to replace these guys. --- FD 2.00 * Origin: ParaNet Administration =->Voice 303-232-8303<-= (1:104/428) SEEN-BY: 19/19 101/667 104/422 428 114/37 115/876 120/80 132/113 SEEN-BY: 133/107 138/111 140/32 141/790 147/66 231/40 252/18 SEEN-BY: 265/12 268/102 283/630 304/1 3 363/17 371/10 382/33 SEEN-BY: 1063/304 3607/20 30163/3 22 150 401 328/417 07 Dec 89 17:15:00 ~From: Robert Klinn To: Robert Klinn Subj: UFOs: The Best Evidence Altered? Attr: ------------------------------------------------ Part 2 <...Continued from previous message> _______ The following appeared in the original nine segments but NOT in the 11/25/89 broadcast. To retain context, some uncut material has been included. Segment 5 (11/10/89): Lazar: Well, I am telling the truth. I've tried to prove that. What's going on up there could be the most important event in history. You're talking about contact, physical contact and proof from another system, another planet, another intelligence. That's got to be the biggest event in history -- period. And, it's real and it's there. [CUT:] Lazar (continuing): And I had an extremely small part in it. I'm convinced that what I saw is absolute proof of that. There is no way that we could have created those disks. There is no way we could have made the disks, the power supplies, anything that goes with it. [END CUT.] Segment 5 (11/10/89): [CUT:] Lazar says he has no intention of going on any UFO lecture circuit. He is not looking to do any additional interviews. In fact, he was not too crazy about doing this one. He did it after certain unfavorable things started happening in his life, and he did it because he feels that whoever is running the show up at S-4 is perpetrating a fraud on the American people and the scientific community. [END CUT.] Segment 6 (11/13/89): Lazar: I gave everything simple names -- the "top hat" one and, you know, the "jello mold"; and the "sport model" operated without any hitches at all. I mean, it looked new. If I know what a new flying saucer looks like. [CUT:] Lazar (continuing): One of them looked like it was hit with some sort of a projectile. It had a large hole in the bottom and a large hole in the top with the metal bent out like some sort of, you know, large-caliber 4- or 5-inch projectile had gone through it. [END CUT.] Segment 6 (11/13/89): Knapp: Bob Lazar isn't the only person to claim "inside knowledge" of the flying disks at the test site -- he is just the only person to say so publicly. We have communicated with several people who say they know of the saucer program. A technician in a highly sensitive position told us it is "common knowledge among those with high security clearances that recovered alien disks are stored at the Nevada Test Site." A Las Vegas professional, who once served in the military and was stationed at the Test Site, says he saw a flying disk land outside the boundaries of Area 51 -- [CUT:] Knapp (continuing): -- that it was quickly surrounded by security personnel and that he was taken away and debriefed for several hours. [END CUT.] Segment 6 (11/13/89): Knapp: A man who once worked at Groom Lake as a technician, at our request, wrote this letter explaining how he inadvertently walked into the wrong hangar and saw what appeared to be a large metallic disk under a tarp. [CUT:] Knapp (continuing): It was being examined by men in lab coats. [END CUT.] Knapp (continuing): And an airman who worked at Nellis at a radar installation says he and his fellow servicemen watched over a period of five nights, unusual objects flying over the Groom Mountains. He says the radar images indicate the objects zoomed into range at speeds of 7,000 miles per hour and then would stop on a dime, and that nothing we have is capable of doing that. The airman says that when word of his sighting got out, he was ordered to turn off his radar sensors for that area and told to keep quiet about the matter because it did not happen. Segment 6 (11/13/89): [CUT:] Knapp: Tomorrow, more troubling allegations about the military potential of alien technology. [END CUT.] --- FD 2.00 * Origin: ParaNet Administration =->Voice 303-232-8303<-= (1:104/428) SEEN-BY: 19/19 101/667 104/422 428 114/37 115/876 120/80 132/113 SEEN-BY: 133/107 138/111 140/32 141/790 147/66 231/40 252/18 SEEN-BY: 265/12 268/102 283/630 304/1 3 363/17 371/10 382/33 SEEN-BY: 1063/304 3607/20 30163/3 22 150 401 329/417 07 Dec 89 17:17:00 ~From: Robert Klinn To: Robert Klinn Subj: UFOs: The Best Evidence Altered? Attr: ------------------------------------------------ Part 3 <...Continued from previous Message> ======== Segment 7 (11/14/89): (Essentially ALL of Segment 7 has been cut.) [CUT:] Knapp: Just over this ridge [showing a photo of Area 51], tucked inside the test tubes of a hidden government base, the secrets of the universe may be unfolding. The area is designated S-4, and according to one man who claims to have worked there, S-4 harbors scientific achievements that would astonish our deepest thinkers. It is technology that, if it exists, could change the world, but is allegedly bottled up by military minds. [CUT:] Lazar: It's not an overall government project. It's not something that Congress appropriates money for. Two billion is for this, 15 billion for flying saucers, eight billion for Star Wars: it doesn't go like that. I don't believe that they have any knowledge of it at all. [CUT:] Knapp: The technology that Bob Lazar says he saw extends far beyond flying saucers. An anti-matter reactor allows the spaceships to produce their own gravitational fields, he says. Such a technology, if real, would answer UFO skeptics who argue that aliens could never visit Earth because the distances between worlds are too great, even at the speed of light. [CUT:] Lazar: Gravity distorts time and space. Just like if you had a water bed and put a bowling ball in the middle. It warps it down like that -- that's exactly what happens to space. Imagining that you were in a spacecraft that could exert a tremendous gravitational field by itself, you could sit on any particular place and turn on the gravity generator and actually warp space and time, and fold it. By shutting that off, you'd click back and you'd be a tremendous distance from where you were, but time would not have even moved because you essentially shut it off. I mean it is so far fetched, people -- it's difficult for people to grasp, and as stubborn as the scientific community is, they'll never buy it. But this is, in fact, that's just what happens. [CUT:] Knapp: Actually, Lazar's explanation is very close to mainstream scientific thought and can be traced directly to Einstein. The difference is, scientists regard it as theory only. There is much that science still doesn't know. [CUT:] Dale Etheridge (Scientist): There are people who say that our main problem with that is we don't know what gravity is. It's this magical force that acts at a distance. We can describe how it behaves -- that's what the law of gravity is -- it's just a description of how it behaves. But it says nothing about what gravity really is. [CUT:] Knapp: We'll use Etheridge as our barometer of scientific thought. He says we cannot produce gravity, that there's no such thing as a working anti-matter reactor, and that we have yet to figure out a way to get around the speed of light. He also concedes, though, such things are possible. [CUT:] Etheridge: Yeah. And really we don't know what's possible, as there could be other civilizations out there -- several hundred years or so, a thousand years, even a million years ahead of us -- that have found a way to circumvent this. We have no way of knowing for sure. [CUT:] Lazar: Well, the thing is, when you harness gravity, you harness everything. It's the missing piece in physics right now. We really know very little about gravity. [CUT:] Knapp: At least that's the way it used to be. Lazar says the technology to harness gravity not only exists but is being tested at S-4. And if such technology is beyond human capabilities, it must have come from someplace else. It's more than conjecture, he says, because he also saw an element that cannot be found on the periodic chart. The element, called 115, can be stored in lead casings much like this one [showing a lead circular container]. Lazar says the government has 500 pounds of it, and it cannot be made on Earth. [CUT:] Lazar: It would be almost impossible; well, it is impossible to synthesize an element that heavy here on Earth. [CUT:] Knapp: At least right now. --- FD 2.00 * Origin: ParaNet Administration =->Voice 303-232-8303<-= (1:104/428) SEEN-BY: 19/19 101/667 104/422 428 114/37 115/876 120/80 132/113 SEEN-BY: 133/107 138/111 140/32 141/790 147/66 231/40 252/18 SEEN-BY: 265/12 268/102 283/630 304/1 3 363/17 371/10 382/33 SEEN-BY: 1063/304 3607/20 30163/3 22 150 401 330/417 07 Dec 89 17:18:00 ~From: Robert Klinn To: Robert Klinn Subj: UFOs: The Best Evidence Altered? Attr: ------------------------------------------------ Part 4 <...Continued from previous message> [CUT:] Lazar: I don't think that you can ever synthesize it. The amount of -- You essentially have to assemble it by bombarding it with protons; if atom by atom, it would take an infinite amount of power and an infinite amount of time. The substance has to come from a place where super-heavy elements could have been produced naturally. [CUT:] Knapp: And what sort of place is that? [CUT:] Lazar: Next to a much larger sun where there would be greater mass. Maybe a binary star system -- a super-nova -- somewhere where there is just a bigger release of energy to synthesize these things naturally. It has to be a naturally occurring element. [CUT:] Knapp: 115 is the fuel for the anti-matter reactors, he says. By bombarding 115, anti-matter is produced. A kilo of anti-matter could produce the energy equivalent of 46 ten-megaton hydrogen bombs, and comparing the energy potential of anti-matter to, say, the Hoover Dam, would be like comparing planets to grains of sand. 115 could also make one heck of a bomb. [CUT:] Lazar: We're talking about hundreds and hundreds of megatons off a small piece of it. It sounds incredible, but total conversion of matter to energy would release that amount of power. And it isn't that difficult to take -- get the energy out of it. So it's not something you'd ever want to fall into anyone's hands. [CUT:] Knapp: The dangers associated with 115 and anti-matter may be the reason Lazar was hired to work at S-4. There was an accident, he says, back in April 1987, an accident that was passed off as an unannounced nuclear test. [CUT:] Lazar: Some people got killed. I was told flat out I was one of the people that were to replace these guys. [CUT:] Knapp: Is this why the government might be keeping the whole matter a secret? Because of the military potential of alien technology? Lazar says he believes the Soviet Union was once part of our research on the flying disks, but that the U.S. kicked the Soviets out after making some sort of discovery. He also believes the program at S-4 is operated with funds allocated to Star Wars research, but says he can't prove it. Some UFO researchers suspect the government is test flying alien craft so that it can one day master the technology and claim it was made in the good old U.S.A., thus obscuring the possibility of alien visitations. [CUT:] Stanton T. Friedman: I think they have the duty to inform us. At least to the bare bones of what's going on. I don't want technological stuff put out on the table. I mean, I worked on classified projects for 15 years, and I don't think we need another weapon's delivery system. But I think the government does have the responsibility to release information that, indeed, the planet is being visited. Probably it should be done in conjunction with the Soviets. [CUT:] Lazar: I don't think that it will get to that level. They're not going to have a fleet of them and fly them around, and I don't think you need to do that. If you're looking at them from a weapons point of view, you're looking at an incredibly powerful device. You only need one that operates. You don't ever need to come public with it. You may want to learn more about it should it ever break which is -- might be -- what they're doing. [CUT:] Knapp: They've got one -- [CUT:] Lazar: -- Oh, they've got a few. Yeah. [CUT:] Lazar is the first to admit that his story is tough to swallow. He submitted to polygraph exams, has opened up sensitive parts of his personal life, and fully expects to be ridiculed or perhaps punished for his revelations. [END CUT.] _______ [The hypnotherapy discussion of Segment 7 further below has been totally replaced by the following short summary included in the broadcast of 11/25/89. Note that reference to a mind-control technique by Lazar's U.S. government employers has been excised.] Knapp: Lazar wanted to recall further details from reports he says he read at S-4, so he went to Layne Keck, a licensed and experienced hypnotherapist. Keck makes no exaggerated claims about the powers of hypnosis, but he did help dredge up some specifics from the reports. He is confident about that, that Lazar is not making this up. Keck: His subconscious mind believes TOTALLY all of these things. --- FD 2.00 * Origin: ParaNet Administration =->Voice 303-232-8303<-= (1:104/428) SEEN-BY: 19/19 101/667 104/422 428 114/37 115/876 120/80 132/113 SEEN-BY: 133/107 138/111 140/32 141/790 147/66 231/40 252/18 SEEN-BY: 265/12 268/102 283/630 304/1 3 363/17 371/10 382/33 SEEN-BY: 1063/304 3607/20 30163/3 22 150 401 331/417 07 Dec 89 17:19:00 ~From: Robert Klinn To: Robert Klinn Subj: UFOs: The Best Evidence Altered? Attr: ------------------------------------------------ Part 5 Conclusion <....Continued from previous message> =================== [CUT:] Knapp: His desire to explain what really happened at S-4 took him to Layne Keck, a licensed, experienced hypnotherapist who quietly and privately tried to help Lazar remember details of the many briefing papers he says he read. [CUT:] Keck: I have no clue as to what we were getting to, and he started saying that there were pictures of what I thought was DESKS on the wall. Well as it turned out, it was DISKS that he was referring to. And at that moment I realized we were into something that was pretty heavy. [CUT:] Knapp: Keck does not exaggerate his claims for hypnosis. He regards it as a useful tool for uncovering some lost memories. He says people are quite capable of lying under hypnosis but says the technique can be of help in determining truth. What's his opinion of Lazar's truthfulness? [CUT:] Keck: It tells me that his subconscious mind believes totally all of these things. [CUT:] Lazar has long suspected that his government employers used some sort of mind-control technique to prevent him from disclosing too much about S-4. While he says he has vivid conscious memories of the saucers and other technology, there were other memories that even now remained locked, which is why he sought out Keck in the first place. Keck is convinced that someone really did mess with Lazar's head. [CUT:] Keck: Also they used tremendous fear in threatening those in his environment if he did bring this information forth. Also, it appears that maybe there were some chemicals used. [CUT:] Lazar: Nah, I'm not going to change anyone's mind. That's not my intention. I'm just relaying the experience -- the job that I went through. It is a fantastic thing. It's a fantastic story. I can't take people there to show them what was going on, and you know, I don't expect anyone to believe it. [CUT:] Knapp: What if he is right? What if aliens are here? How would this change our view of the world? Our most fundamental beliefs? Religion? We'll know more on that tomorrow. [END CUT.] _______ Also MISSING from the 11/25/89 version are Knapp's opinions and comments before and after most of the nine previously broadcast segments. His extended comments at the end of the ninth segment are particularly bold. He says: "What we have learned" is that "the Government has lied" and "has discredited UFO witnesses." Knapp suggests that any future Congessional UFO inquiry must be "without ties to the CIA" or other intelligence agencies. Then turning from a co-anchor and looking into the camera, he seems to speak to particular individuals: "There are people probably watching right now. . . who know a lot about this subject." And he asks them to call him. Knapp ends the ninth segment by assuring his viewers that "the investigation will continue." Info-ParaNet Newsletters, Number 109 Monday, December 25th 1989 Today's Topics: George Knapp Interview/Lazar ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ~From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin ~Subject: Knapp Interview #1 ~Date: 24 Dec 89 05:08:00 GMT DATE OF UPLOAD: December 23, 1989 ORIGIN OF UPLOAD: ParaNet Information Service CONTRIBUTED BY: Chuck Harder/Special Correspondent to ParaNet ======================================================== (C) Copyright 1989 ParaNet Information Service All Rights Reserved unless copyrighted by Author. ======================================================== INTERVIEW WITH GEORGE KNAPP OF KLAS-TV (LAS VEGAS, NEVADA) ON NOVEMBER 17, 1989. INTERVIEWED BY CHUCK HARDER, HOST AND MODERATOR OF 'FOR THE PEOPLE' OF THE SUN RADIO NETWORK. CHUCK HARDER My guest has (now) called in and I'm going to run down who he is and where he's from for a number of reasons, some of them for his own protection. George, are you there... GEORGE KNAPP Hello Chuck. CHUCK HARDER Please tell us, you are George Knapp, right... GEORGE KNAPP That's right. CHUCK HARDER George, what do you do for a living? GEORGE KNAPP I'm a journalist with KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, the CBS affiliate here. CHUCK HARDER So you are a TV newsman... GEORGE KNAPP Right. CHUCK HARDER And you work for Channel 8, KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, Nevada... GEORGE KNAPP Right. CHUCK HARDER I understand that you have come upon some very interesting information and you've done some special reports, could you tell us about it...? GEORGE KNAPP Well we just finished a nine-part series -- what may be the longest series that's ever been done on this subject dealing with UFOs. Our research actually started about two and a half years ago, a fellow named John Lear, the son of the guy who invented the Lear Jet brought some of this information to our attention. In May of this year, Mr. Lear introduced us to a fellow who claims to have worked at a secret base designated S-4...on a top-secret Nevada test site...the fellow said that he worked on flying saucers, that the technology was not from Earth, and we interviewed him live in silhouette in May, the response was incredible...we got response from Japan, parts of that interview aired on radio in Europe, and six different European countries...so we decided with this much interest we might want to take a look at the subject in more depth. We started doing that and the first thing we found out is that really UFOs have not been given a fair shake by science, by government, by religion and especially by journalism. Millions of people have seen UFOs, millions more believe...I think the latest Gallup poll shows about 70 percent of college-educated Americans believe that there's something to it, but because of the tabloid aspects...'The Girl Who Gives Birth to 52 UFO Babies' -- kind of things in the National Enquirer, people have shied away from it...Serious people have shied away. Scientists, although they might be interested in searching the universe for radio signals really don't want to look in their own back yard -- they can't get grants...people would laugh at them. Journalism - - the coverage is generally condescending and quirky, especially by the networks, as in the coverage of this UFO that supposedly landed in the USSR, people making fun of it...so, we figured out that millions of people want to know as Roy Neary, the guy in the 'Close Encounters' movie said, 'What's going on?' So we started investigating it. The focal point of the story being this fellow who said he worked at S-4. We broke his identity last Friday. His name is Bob Lazar, he is a former scientist who worked at Los Alamos National Labs, he is a physicist...we did a lot of checking on him and found interestingly enough that his life was disappearing around him. In other words we called Los Alamos Labs and they said they never heard of him. We called MIT where he says he went to school and they had never heard of him. We called for his Birth records and they had disappeared...as if someone was trying to make him a non-person. We did however confirm some of the information that he had given us...we found newspaper articles from Los Alamos indicating that he had indeed worked there...we found an old telephone book from the lab with his name in it, which gave him a certain amount of credibility in our eyes. The story he tells is an incredible one. He was hired to work at this area called S-4 on the test site, he was flown up to a place called Groom Lake -- taken by bus with no windows to S-4...the base is built almost to look like its part of the desert with sand covered hanger doors, he goes inside and he starts reading these briefing papers dealing with UFOs! Pictures of UFOs on the walls, pictures of aliens, autopsy reports on alien bodies...things of this nature -- he's pretty amazed. Then he sees the discs. He says there are nine of the discs up there, they are powered by an anti-matter reactor which produces its own gravitational field...technology that does not exist on this planet, and the interesting thing...he thought for a while that perhaps it was just an advanced secret scientific project that our government is pursuing until he looked inside one of the discs and noticed the small furniture...all the chairs were built like for children...and then things started coming together for him. Are you with me Chuck? CHUCK HARDER I'm listening. GEORGE KNAPP Er, I'm not sure how much detail you want me to go in on... CHUCK HARDER Oh I think you ought to keep going. GEORGE KNAPP Well, this fellow was up there for only a few months. And it was a rough place for him to work...the security was so hard and he was being harassed at home, his phones being tapped...plus he's on to what he thinks are the secrets of the universe...he starts to tell other people about it, confide with close friends. CHUCK HARDER Ummmmmm..... GEORGE KNAPP He had the date of a couple of tests and on two consecutive weekends he took people up into the desert outside of the boundaries of area S-4, and they video taped the saucers...what looks like a saucer coming over the mountains! CHUCK HARDER Wow... GEORGE KNAPP We showed that video as well... CHUCK HARDER Uh-huh.... GEORGE KNAPP Five different people that we interviewed that had gone up there confirmed the same story...we also had confirmation of other bits of his story from other people, a former security guard who worked up there...who said he had seen the saucers, a former technician... CHUCK HARDER By the way, excuse me, I have some letters from some people postmarked from that area, one inside of a base, who tells me what you're saying is true. Keep going. GEORGE KNAPP Ah, we also found a Nellis Airman who had been on radar duty at Nellis airbase which is here just south of the area that this fellow is talking about...he reported numerous times seeing... CHUCK HARDER George, excuse me...let me do the half hour news break, I want you to tell your story, I want America to hear it...please stand by. >>>>At this point the SUN RADIO NETWORK runs the half hour news headlines and sports audio package from UPI<<<< (After news the guest is re-introduced for listeners who may have just tuned in...) CHUCK HARDER How many reports did you do, George? GEORGE KNAPP We did nine total in this series. CHUCK HARDER Ok, now at the time we went to news on the half hour you told me that a scientist named Bob Lazar... GEORGE KNAPP Right... CHUCK HARDER Ok, came to you and came to the public and apparently was concerned for his safety because he wanted to tell America or get news out that - yes, the Federal Government has nine saucers, and yes they are near...it's near Nellis, is it not? GEORGE KNAPP Yes. CHUCK HARDER Cause I have letters from people who are at Nellis. Some of which don't want to give their name, some of which gave their name, I have the postmarks. Tell us now if you would, start the story from the fact that the gentleman has revealed that there are nine of these things. We're listening and so is America. GEORGE KNAPP Well, we wanted to try to confirm as much of his story as possible from other sources of course, so we started looking for other people who might have knowledge of what's going on up there...as I mentioned, I found a former security guard who said that he had seen the saucers up there, I found a former technician who said that he had walked into a room inadvertently and saw one under a tarp, we found a Nellis airman who had worked in radar and said that basically he and his fellow airman has seen these things flying over the Groom Mountains at speeds up to 7,000 miles per hour on radar...these things would stop on a dime, so the guy knew that this is not your average airplane that's doing this. We also interviewed the other people who went with Lazar up on two consecutive weeks, they test them on Wednesdays for some reason, and videotaped the tests, saw these things flying over the mountains and confirmed his story as well. We put these questions to the Navy, who Lazar says he worked for up there -- we made Freedom of Information Act requests for information about the various specific programs he mentioned, of course the Navy denied having any information on the programs. Of course in those requests we also asked for other information about UFOs, stuff the Navy has already released and they denied having that information as well -- so I don't put a lot of faith in the FOIA requests. CHUCK HARDER In other words, what you're saying is that your organization which is KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, plus many other UFO research groups have uncovered many UFO documents that the government says, 'Yeah, we got them and yeah it's true'...but then when you ask them again they say, 'No, we don't have them!' GEORGE KNAPP Exactly...that's exactly correct! CHUCK HARDER I understand from MUFON and many other groups that there are somewhere from four to seven thousand documents that prove that...yes these things exist, copies of the documents are in private hands, then you go and ask the government and they say, 'Well, er, no we don't remember...' GEORGE KNAPP The government says that they have done these studies that say that UFOs are no threat to national security, they're either psychological aberrations, which means that people are nuts when they see them, that's what they feed the public...but behind the scenes they are very concerned about the national security implications of UFOs that land at nuclear missile bases and can't be caught, things of that nature. So the government from what I've read is very concerned about the phenomena and doesn't really understand it. The government on the other hand has outright lied concerning what information it does have...the CIA for example says it doesn't collect any information on UFOs...well that's just patently not true. We have documents from the CIA, a lot of it is blacked out, which mentions UFO studies by the CIA, UFO research, CIA-UFO experts, agency personnel who are monitoring the phenomenon, so they have lied to us all along. I didn't expect to get any confirmation regarding what Lazar has to say, but had to give it a try anyway. CHUCK HARDER Before we went to the half-hour break you said that when he looked inside one of these discs there were little furniture, give me some information... GEORGE KNAPP Well he feels that they were bringing him along, giving him a piece at a time. He would see a saucer one day, the next he would see the hanger doors open and see all nine of them...after that he got to see the inside of the thing. He also got to see a demonstration of it. He was told to stand back and watch this...and the thing lights up real bright...I guess the power that's produced is incredible, you need to produce your own gravitational field and it raised up, he wasn't sure who was flying it or was it remotely or what. He watched it raise up, did a couple of maneuvers and sat back down. Part of the reason he came forward, not to spill the secrets of the universe or the government, but because the research that's being done up there is being handled in a clumsy fashion. If they have had these for as long as forty years, which is what he believes, they haven't come to far in trying to understand them. Some of the discs he said he saw up there were being taken apart, kind of a reverse archaeology process to figure out how they worked. Some of the research going on up there is aimed at trying to duplicate the things that these machines can do using earth technologies and earth materials and he says it just can't be done. The key to the flying of the things is something he calls 'Element 115'...it does not exist on our periodic charts, he believes that wherever it came from its a naturally occurring element, he says we have 500 pounds of this stuff up there, just a little tiny sliver of it produces incredible amounts of power. Its the '115' that we will not be able to duplicate so he thinks...one of the reasons that he came forward is because scientists all over the world are working, putting their energy into trying to master the secrets of gravity and the secrets of anti-matter technology and here we've got it up there and they're not doing a very good job with it -- this little batch of scientists hidden out in the desert are trying to figure it out and not doing a very good job... CHUCK HARDER But this is kind of common with the United States government...I read a tremendous amount of material...I read a tremendous amount of material...I read five newspapers a day and I'll find where one group in one part of the country is working on a project and I'll get a clipping where another group is working on the same project, I've contacted them and they don't know of each other! GEORGE KNAPP Yeah, Yeah -- that's exactly right...he said the compartmentalization up there was very severe as well so that nobody had the full picture -- I guess so nobody could spill the beans as he has been trying to do. CHUCK HARDER Alright, what does he feel the public should know and what does he feel should be done? GEORGE KNAPP Well, he's not on a campaign, what he really wanted to do was to save his own life. He started having some problems when it became obvious to his employers that he was telling someone else about this. CHUCK HARDER We're talking about Bob Lazar now... GEORGE KNAPP Bob Lazar...his phone being tapped, people visiting him, calling him up with a single word message -- DEAD -- then they hang up! He tried to arrange meetings with his former supervisor and the meetings didn't come off, he says somebody took a shot at him on the freeway...obviously he realizes that if they really wanted to kill him, they could. Maybe perhaps they were just trying to shut him up. He feels that what is going on up there is a crime against the entire scientific community...not only the American people because we don't know what's going on and we haven't been told alien technology exists, but also against the scientific community. So, what else can I tell ya? CHUCK HARDER What does he say about the aliens? GEORGE KNAPP He's reluctant to talk about that, apparently he did see some aliens up there... CHUCK HARDER Excuse me, are you telling me there were live aliens? GEORGE KNAPP Yeah, he's kind of sketchy on the details of that, and I don't think I should go much further on that...part of the discussion until I can talk to him, but he has indications that there are aliens up there, at least one... CHUCK HARDER Live? GEORGE KNAPP Yeah, it's pretty wild, I know and I didn't include that in our reports because I couldn't confirm any thing of that nature, I couldn't find anyone else who had seen them up there so... CHUCK HARDER What did they look like? GEORGE KNAPP Your classic Grey...the little big-headed almond eyed-grey skinned being...the same ones in the classic descriptions of the UFO literature...he's kind of squeamish talking about it as well because it sounds so crazy... CHUCK HARDER I don't think it's crazy at all, there was an article, let me digress for a moment, there was an article yesterday on the front page of The Wall Street Journal where the FDA that stopped all of the grapes from Chile last March...apparently somebody laced two of the grapes with cyanide a couple of hours before the FDA, stumbled on them and it was an inside job apparently while the grapes were in the inspection station...and it was not done on the way, so somebody's lying there -- we're talking of two little grapes that almost bankrupted the country of Chile! If two little grapes...and such a story hits the front page of The Wall Street Journal about the questions about the truthfulness and what happened with the FDA, what about this...how would this ever get out if they would cover up a story about TWO LITTLE GRAPES?! GEORGE KNAPP Well, I tell you we asked the question, the obvious question, if this is true; how can the government keep this a secret all this time? A story this big -- the government leaks like a sieve on other things, how could the coverup exist? CHUCK HARDER Oh, I'll tell you... GEORGE KNAPP To which Lazar responds, this is the easiest...and he asked the question to his superiors up there, it's the easiest thing in the world to keep a secret because if it does come out, little bits and pieces, who's going to believe it? CHUCK HARDER Exactly...let me, you remember the Condon Report, do you not? GEORGE KNAPP Yes... CHUCK HARDER For those who are listening, I got into this investigation because I kept getting letters from our listeners who said, Chuck you ought to investigate this...we've investigated many things in the past such as the GM Diesel coverup, we're working on a pay phone coverup, we've done things with Ralph Nader...and so on. So we started buying the books and contacting UFO organizations. I then found that there was a guy named Phil Klass who was always there...somehow he as always there and he said that everything was bunk! And of course, he works for the Aviation Week magazine which is of course is the mouthpiece for the Military/Industrial complex and they certainly wouldn't want this technology to be out! I was also amazed when I saw the stealth bomber (tests) live on CNN one Saturday and a small plane landed at the same place, (runway) do you remember that...? GEORGE KNAPP Yes... CHUCK HARDER My question is: If the Stealth Bomber was so super-secret, how could a man and his children land their little tiny plane on the same runway at a super-secret airforce base? How could he have pierced the radar and fighter jets and so forth? My feeling was, probably the Stealth Bomber was obsolete and nobody was watching! GEORGE KNAPP Yeah, I'd have to agree with you, because the security up there...the only thing that comes out of that place is what they want out of it. CHUCK HARDER So what your talking about then, since the Condon Committee, Phil Klass and all the of the spokespeople who are supposed to know everything, what your saying is the ridicule factor...if Billy Bob sees a flying saucer and even has a photo of it and takes it to the paper, everybody laughs at him! GEORGE KNAPP There are actual documents the government has released (Under Freedom of Information Act) that show it has an active program that started back in the fifties...the CIA even used the term DEBUNKING, there were discussions about using Walt Disney to produce cartoons that made fun of people who had seen flying saucers...they were going to bring Arthur Godfrey in as their spokesperson. Phil Klass as you mentioned, he's explained away UFO sightings seen by thousands of people as the constellation ORION, when you can only see ORION from the other side of the planet. CHUCK HARDER Uh huh... GEORGE KNAPP He uses things like Ball Lightning, plasma balls to explain the sightings where plasma balls only last for a few seconds and the examples that he is trying to explain occur in cloudless skies where there is no lightning around. You mention the Condon report, that's a perfect example of the kinds of things that the government has done in the past, they commission a study, it's supposed to be THE STUDY, but the guy they hire to run the thing, Edward Condon had before he even started, that there was nothing to UFOs, the government should get out of it, and he also said at one point that the authors of UFO books should be HORSEWHIPPED! One of the explanations that came from the Condon Committee witnessed by several people, they described it as, a natural phenomena so rare that it has never been seen before or since! I don't think this kind of a thing is an accident! CHUCK HARDER Ok, the Soviet Union and Tass gave their report (of a UFO) and from what I have heard there are different kinds of aliens, some have been coming here for years and years and it's nothing new... GEORGE KNAPP Right... CHUCK HARDER Why is it in some parts of the world (now) they report other types of humanoids and other types of vehicles...I happen to have beautiful photos of some, and as I told you off-the-air, we're going to be releasing them in our upcoming magazine if someone doesn't stick a dagger through my heart... GEORGE KNAPP You're talking about the Billy Meier case, if you want to touch on that, we also did some investigation on that... CHUCK HARDER Ok, go ahead. GEORGE KNAPP Billy Meier, I've always been intrigued by that, and wanted to check them out. Its been pretty much written-off by the UFO community but when we put questions to them about the case they can't explain exactly why so we traveled to Phoenix and talked to Lee Elders one of the lead investigators on the Billy Meier case and started going over the evidence. The photos had been analyzed by independent experts, the film footage and video had been analyzed, the metal sample had been confirmed as something we don't have -- technology of cold fusion was used to produce this metal, the landing sites, the strange circular patterns in the grass that are now only gaining attention in Britain and other countries, all of this stuff had never been pretty much discounted by the UFO community because Elders and Wendelle Stevens had gone outside of the UFO community to get confirmation. The UFO people were kept out of it, the Billy Meier case I think exemplifies the biggest weakness in UFOLOGY and that's the jealousy that permeates the field...everybody wants to be the only one with the real story of UFOs, so they kind of written this guy off only because he didn't cooperate with them. CHUCK HARDER We have been able to get some photos from a source who has some negatives that were just recently located...some from ten feet away, I used to be in the motion picture business. If they are models they cost thousands of dollars and I doubt if a simple Swiss farmer could have done it... GEORGE KNAPP I'd agree with ya, the reason we got interested in Billy Meier, it goes back to Lazar, was because Bob Lazar says, the saucer that he saw fly, he dubbed it the sport model, was the same saucer in the Meier photos, exactly the same. CHUCK HARDER The new ones or the old ones? GEORGE KNAPP The new one. CHUCK HARDER Ok, that's the one we've got. GEORGE KNAPP Going back to the things he saw (Lazar) at S-4, he saw the nine saucers, he said all nine of them were different, like we got the variety pack, but the one he saw fly was like the one in the Meier photo. (There are Three types photographed by Billy Meier.) That's why we decided to check out the Meier part of the (UFO) story. >>>>At this point Chuck Harder tells George Knapp that there is a break coming up and after the break would he please tell Mr. and Mrs. America what they should do to get the truth.<<<< CHUCK HARDER I hope that Mr. and Mrs. America make note of the name George Knapp and Bob Lazar so that if anything ever happens to them, you know why. GEORGE KNAPP Someone should tell us what's going on...TV and movies have conditioned us...we won't panic...Jimmy Carter when he ran for President promised that if he was elected that he vowed to open all the UFO files and he didn't -- we wrote to him asking why and he didn't respond. We want the government to come clean. If that takes a Congressional Investigation...that's something that should be looked at. If it is launched we have to make sure that there are no CIA, contractors and the like involved otherwise people aren't going to believe it. We've seen enough of this whitewash stuff over the years. If there's nothing to the story, then open up the files and prove it to us! CHUCK HARDER OK, have the government let the press into these areas and don't first clean them out... ================================================================= 1117NAP.UFO -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG ********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to******** 'infopara' at the following address: UUCP {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara DOMAIN infopara@scicom.alphacdc.com ADMIN Address infopara-request@scicom.alphacdc.com {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara-request ******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************ $ Interrupt $ Info-ParaNet Newsletters, Number 112 Thursday, December 28th 1989 Today's Topics: Blue Book Expungement MJ-12 Document - HOAX! Re: Lazar/Area51 Re: Info-Paranet Newsletter KVEG/Lazar Transcript #1 KVEG/Lazar Transcript