Info-ParaNet Newsletters, Number 118 Monday, January 1st 1990 Today's Topics: Re: Lazar And His Amazing Saucers Re: Lazar And His Amazing Saucers Re: Elders UFO1 photo A few questions Re: Elders UFO Mark Jose Re: A few questions Re: elders Re: Elders?? Re: Elders HAPPY NEW YEAR! Congressional Amnesty Star of Bethlehem ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Robert.Lee Subject: Re: Lazar And His Amazing Saucers Date: 30 Dec 89 22:26:00 GMT Jim, You may have hit on something here with just what "kind" of scientist would cover this UFO phenomenon and "what kind" of discipline the individual should be in (and which subset of which discipline, too). You bring up a good point about funding. It would appear that it is not likely that federal funding for such a study would be very easily gotten and, if the funding were private, then much could be said about bias, etc. This is the problem of the "Catch 22" in the area. It is not "real" until it is "real" and it is not studied until it is "real" and it is not "real" until it is studied. Even if "a crashed saucer" were discovered, it would be likely the case that it would not initiate a new discipline as the finding would not fit into the current general framework of the scientific zeitgeist/weltanschaung; hence the thing would be "invisible" (not studied well) because it could not be perceived (not fitted into the weltanschaung). Very good points. It could be a problem not ammenable to scientific investigation unless or until someone with a very highly repsected scientific background blazes a new trail. Thus the area of UFOlogy is more one of epistemology at this time; what might (MIGHT) help to open the door is to have a number of scientists (probably in Astrophysics or Extra Terrestrial Biology) establish a "paradigm" in which the phenomenon could be subsumed into some current scientific area. -- Robert Lee - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Robert.Lee@p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Robert.Lee Subject: Re: Lazar And His Amazing Saucers Date: 30 Dec 89 22:40:00 GMT I, again, think Bryon that a good solid researched-based foundation is critical to this type of pursuit. Specifically, what is needed (if there is such to be found) is either valid scientific reports of recovery of giants (in numbers so as to exclude the possibility of a mutant) OR the actual recovery of the remains of said giant. Once recovered then a number of scientific tests could be conducted on the genetic code of such remains. I believe it is important, critical, that evidence (if any there is (which is unknown)) must be objective, physical, and observable. That is science. -- Robert Lee - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Robert.Lee@p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Robert.Lee Subject: Re: Elders Date: 30 Dec 89 22:55:00 GMT Thank you, Ray, for your reply to my questions. I will be looking forward to any more information you can give me. I am particularly interested in these Elders. Can you tell me how it is that you have come to know about these Elders? Thanks. -- Robert Lee - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Robert.Lee@p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Paul.Carr Subject: UFO1 photo Date: 31 Dec 89 04:05:00 GMT I recently downloaded a GIF format file from the Paranet Archives library called UFO1. This strikes me as a good image of the classic 'flying saucer' or 'daylight disk'. Can anyone give me some background on this photograph - i.e. who, where, when, and results of analyses? I am always hearing that there's not one decent photograph of a UFO. Is this the counterexample I was looking for? "Carr@Astro.DNet.GE.com" -- Paul Carr - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Paul.Carr@p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Jim.Speiser Subject: A few questions Date: 30 Dec 89 09:32:00 GMT Gene: You raise some good points. My main problems with Lazar are: 1) He is conveniently fuzzy on such important details as the atomic weight of 115, the frequency of the gravity-wave mechanism, etc. 2) He mentions a badge with MAJ-12 on it, and says his clearance was MAJESTIC. First, MJ-12 has been thoroughly discredited in my mind (but then, maybe that was the point...!) Second, even if its real, I just don't think the clearances work that way. Why would a grunt scientist have the same clearance level as the head of the NSC, and other higher-ups? There would most assuredly be super-compartmentalization at Lazar's level. 3) Although he talks SOMETHING like a scientist, I'm not overly impressed with his grasp of basic scientific concepts. Don't ask me why...I'm no scientist myself, but I know what they sound like. 4) He says they showed the flask of 115 on the KLAS interview, and a couple of days later it was stolen. Well, isn't that special. What would YOU have done after showing Uncle Sam and untold thousands of people that you are in possession of the rarest, most secret, and most dangerous substance on earth? The words "Safety Deposit Box" come to mind.... Still, this is the damnedest UFO story yet, and I'm loving every minute of it. I'm also wondering who's behind it. I strongly doubt your idea that its just fantasy-fulfillment for Lazar. There's just too much to it. Jim -- Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Speiser@f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Clark.Matthews Subject: Re: Elders Date: 31 Dec 89 07:02:00 GMT Hello, Ray, and Happy New Year! If you don't mind and interjection here, I wonder if you've read Jacques Vallee's book "Dimensions"? If so (or even if "no"), how would you compare the "Elders" you write of with similar beings described by Vallee in his historical section. A few examples of the "Elementals" who have figured in alchemy and prophesy in the last 3000 years: *Sylphs, as described by Paracelsus (ca. 1250 AD) *Nymphs & Sprites (preclassical Southern Europe) *Nostradamus' "Visitors" (ca. 1370 AD) *Trolls/Niebelungs -- Germano-Celtic, preclassical *The "Shee" -- Britano-Celtic, preclassical *D'jinn -- Arabic & Persian (?), classical I wonder if you've read any of Erica Cheetham's excellent translations of Nostradamus' "Centuries"? He claimed to be able to summon these beings by staring into a kettle of water set under a tripod. The 64-dollar question: Can you do so likewise? Best, Clark -- Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Clark.Matthews@p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!f401.n30163.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Mark.Jose Subject: UFO Mark Jose Date: 31 Dec 89 18:32:00 GMT Hello all. I have a few questions that, maybe, someone can answer. 1. There was a matron from a Gippsland (a geographical region of South-Eastern Victoria, Aust.) hospital who was on one of the highways when she noticed a light behind her. Eventually the light caught her, her car stalled and she was held in a shaft of light for a few minutes before the light disappeared (along with the craft). 2. There was a multiple sighting of ufo(s) in Boianai, New Guinea. This sighting involved an Anglican priest and various natives that were at the mission. It lasted quite a while with the "aliens" actually coming out and standing on top of their crafts. I would say most people have heard of it, but has anybody got any detailed accounts of what went on. 3. An encounter occurred between a pilot flying from Canberra (Aust's Capital) to Nowra (coastal town of New South Wales). The pilot was passing over Goulburn when two "objects" approached him. These were "identified" as unidentified objects. He informed the Nowra radar operator who also saw them. He stated that they approached the aircraft then stayed with it before going north and disappearing off the screen in seconds. If anybody has heard of these accounts or can direct me to some reference material concerning them, I would be much appreciative. Regards, Mark. -- Mark Jose - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Mark.Jose@f401.n30163.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Jim.Delton Subject: Re: A few questions Date: 31 Dec 89 08:15:00 GMT You echoed my sentiments almost exactly. Who in their right mind would go to the trouble to steal a bit of the most important material in the WORLD (115) and then just leave it lying around for someone to steal? How could he possibly not recall the atomic weight or the frequency, even approximately? Just for kicks I took a quick stroll thru my old intro to physics book from many years ago. It was an eye opener looking thru all the rather detailed and complicated integral and differentiation equations required to just put together an intro text yet Lazar gives me the impression he barely has even that much of a background. I am getting the distinct impression that we are dealing with a deluded technician trying to pass himself off as something more. I also was amazed at the references to MJ12 and majestic, made almost in passing. Hard to imagine that in his discussions to date with the likes of Lear, that he hadn't heard of the MJ 12 business and become much more aware of the potential significance of it. I was also confused (maybe I read it too fast) by him saying at one point how he got down under the saucer and as a result he was away for the guards that were always around but later when aske what the bottom of the saucer looked like he said he didn't know, he'sd never seen one from the bottom. He seems to be exceoptionally carefull not to be very specific about anything that could be checked up on. -- Jim Delton - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Delton@p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Jim.Delton Subject: Re: elders Date: 31 Dec 89 08:19:00 GMT Still at your little game I see. Wouldn't do to make any predictions of national events would it; might actually pin you down to something checkable. -- Jim Delton - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Delton@p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f19.n19.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Ray.Griffin Subject: Re: Elders?? Date: 31 Dec 89 21:26:00 GMT It seems that I have a mysterious programmer in my system. I saw some messages that were garbled to you and Jim Delton, and I didn't send one to him. As for you, I sent another message later. Let me know if you don't get it. -- Ray Griffin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Ray.Griffin@p0.f19.n19.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f19.n19.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Ray.Griffin Subject: Re: Elders Date: 1 Jan 90 01:37:00 GMT Thanks and Happy New year to you. To answer your questions Yes- to Nostr' and Vallee. No to the other author. As to the Elders, I used that term many years ago, and did not know that it had been prev previously used. The term came about because of personal experience which best fit my understanding at the time, not because they introduced themselves as such. For many years, I considered them to be a figment of my imagination. What's real anyway? It is the reason that I do some of the experiments which I do. I need an outside observer. As to the Vallee possibilities, if they are Ultra-intelligent enery, they wouldn't have to be from another Universe. As to what I can and can't do, let's say I wouldn't be sticking my neck out if there wasn't some possibility of success. Before, someone asks, let me tell you this. For almost twenty years, I was a field engineer for Hewlett-Packard. The Gulf Breeze UFO flap plus other strange stories over the years, and some shoddy checking ( investigating ) by some investigators , I believe, cost me my job. I have no interest in money, and haven't given references so it doesn't matter to a lot who should be interested. I ask only one question. The intentions of the Ultra-intelligence? I know it exists and have proved it to my satisfaction, and many others, but this isn't a political campaign. Sometimes the best solution is to observe not vote. In addition, I'll share this with you. Since, I believe that my personal life has had a mysterious guiding over the years, I believe that some recent happenings weren't chance happenings. Therefore, unless the Ultra-whatever's want me to cooperate in the future they had better not leave me out on a limb, otherwise I will have an excuse to bail-out. I believe the problem is just working out the details however. So don't just accept what I'm saying, if I can't produce that's the way it should be, but remember we are playing by their rules. RG -- Ray Griffin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Ray.Griffin@p0.f19.n19.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f26.n123.z1.FIDONET.ORG!John.Komar Subject: HAPPY NEW YEAR! Date: 1 Jan 90 02:53:00 GMT I wish everyone a HAPPY NEW YEAR!. May the UFO situation be resolved! Regards, John Komar -- John Komar - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: John.Komar@p0.f26.n123.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!f1.n304.z1.FIDONET.ORG!T.s..Bennett Subject: Congressional Amnesty Date: 31 Dec 89 23:32:34 GMT I dont blame anyone for sticking with known theory, known books, playing it safe, etc. This is standard skeptical procedure for people who dont want to take chances. Dont get me wrong, this is not a flame, just an explanation of the state of the inquiry. There are always "conservatives", and "liberals" in any discussion. I'm willing to take risks, my mind goes toward the more sketchy scenario of NEW PHYSICS. This allows for new forms of propulsion, i.e. drive systems in new vehicles that permit them to "fly" There is enough circumstantial evidence surrounding UFOs today, that if we could get it into a court of law, subpoena witnesses, gather evidence that is currently withheld, we could definitely "PROVE" it! I find it foolish in the extreme to enter into "red herring" discussions about Lazar's pay stubs, educational background, ad infinitum! Such straw dogs keep us from the REAL POINT which is coming up at the bottom of this message. It doesn't really matter if Lazar is authentic or not, if one has an open mind and follows his line of reasoning, it becomes obvious that either he is telling the truth and cant prove it, or has projected his own scientific thinking into the future in a logical and straightforward way. The configuration of the saucer "drive system" and the possible existence on this Earth of "heavy element 115" that is said to fuel it are no more science fiction today than a transistor radio would have been to somebody in 1931. If saucers and element 115 exist on Earth at this time, the people need to be informed. If the people are informed, that will effectively stifle the current research being done trying to create horrific killing weapons with this material and open the discussion to a more positive direction helpful to man. BOTTOM LINE: If Lazar is telling the truth, the people in charge think that they can stifle him, and/or he will fade into UFO mythology as some have said, and there certainly would be no point and it would be STUPID in the extreme for the government to prosecute him for telling secrets! Cause then we would know wouldn't we? With Lazar telling the truth, that means there are others who would come forward backing up his story, and telling stories of their own if there was a ground swell of support from the public, and PROTECTION FROM PROSECUTION BY WAY OF CONGRESSIONAL AMNESTY! Lazar was subjected to fear tactics, and serious brain washing to keep him from coming forward with any story. We can assume that there are others who know and have "seen things", that are seriously afraid for their lives, or generally fearful of doing jail time. There is a movement afoot that will emanate from the January 7th "Special VIP Panel" in Las Vegas, put together by Billy Goodman. A guy who's name escapes me will pass out petition forms to be taken to everybody's home towns and signed by members of the public, and then gathered together and presented to Congress that will provide amnesty for anyone in government employ to come forward with anecdotal or material evidence of technology from another civilization/star system that is currently being held secret! -- T.s. Bennett - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: T.s..Bennett@f1.n304.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f102.n268.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Paul.Faeder Subject: Star of Bethlehem Date: 31 Dec 89 19:38:22 GMT Christmas star: Close encounter of planetary kind? Penn State U. News Bureau Was the star that led the three Wise Men to Christ's birthplace a myth, a planetary close encounter, a comet, a nova, or an actual new star? Although astronomers don't agree and theories exist to support each answer, Dr. Louis Winkler assistant professor of astronomy at Penn State, thinks one theory shines above the rest. Winkler, who has an interest in the history of astronomy, said the theory offered by David Hughes of the University of Sheffield about a decade ago "satisfies the biblical data much better than any other." That theory maintains that the Christmas Star was actually a series of three close encounters, or conjunctions, of Saturn and Jupiter in which those planets appeared to be moving backward for several weeks simultaneously in the sky. Winkler said single conjunctions of Saturn and Jupiter occur about every 20 years and have, historically, been considered important events by astrologers who believe that they portend significant events in human existence. However triple conjunctions are exceedingly rare, said Winkler, although one did occur in 7 B.C., the year many historians believe was the actual year of Christ's birth. If the Wise Men were following the triple conjunction of 7 B.C., what they would have seen in the night sky was Saturn and Jupiter shining brightly together much closer than usual. The planets would have risen in the East and gradually made their way across the vault of the sky to set in the West over a six month period. However, for weeks during their progress toward the West, the planets would have appeared to temporarily go backward. Winkler says, "The planets were not actually going in a backward direction, but their unusual position opposite the sun would have made it appear that way to the Wise Men as they looked relative to the background stars." Winkler says the conjunction satisfies the biblical data that the star was seen in the East and appeared to stand over Jerusalem as the Wise Men followed it West. "Many people think the Star of Bethlehem was a comet. However, if it were a comet the astrologers of 2000 years ago would not have been able to anticipate it and the comet would not have been perceived as returning. The astrologers would have been able to predict a conjunction of Saturn and Jupiter and the Bible says the Star was "anticipated" and that it "returned"." -- Paul Faeder - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Paul.Faeder@p0.f102.n268.z1.FIDONET.ORG ********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to******** 'infopara' at the following address: UUCP {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara DOMAIN infopara@scicom.alphacdc.com ADMIN Address infopara-request@scicom.alphacdc.com {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara-request ******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************