Info-ParaNet Newsletters, Number 143 Saturday, February 3rd 1990 Today's Topics: Re: Skeptomania is cool Re: Dr. Dan Overlade Re: Mysterious fireballs New Affiliate Paranet Echo Guidelines PHOTOGRAPH Re: Mars Face Re: Mars Face and Skeptics Re: Mars Face Re: Skeptomania is cool Re:ignorance!! Re: Mysterious Fireballs Current Affair Upcoming Expose (?) Re: Journalist needs info ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f19.n19.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Bryon.Smith Subject: Re: Skeptomania is cool Date: 2 Feb 90 03:07:00 GMT In a message to John Daly <01-31-90 10:10> Jim Delton wrote: JD> >>Free speech cuts both ways. JD> Thanks for your well thought out post on that subject. I JD> have lost count of the number of times I have been beaten Heck, I don't know anymore, I get so far behind in trying to keep up with all these messages. It appears that you and John are arguing about virtually the same thing from different points. That's like saying you are both arguing for the very same thing, but against each other. Correct me if I have missed something here, believe me I think I have. :-) ...Bryon -- Bryon Smith - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Bryon.Smith@p0.f19.n19.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f19.n19.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Ray.Griffin Subject: Re: Dr. Dan Overlade Date: 2 Feb 90 04:07:00 GMT Gentlemen, I don't want to cloud the picture, but before someone with inside knowledge and otherwise motives jumps in I would like to add something to your discussion. You are right Dan's death wasn't mysterious, but what precipatated it was not a coronary. It was uncontrolled bleeding due to persistent use of anti-inflamatory drugs for a chronic condition. Upon, his addmission several pints of blood were given, and the outcome looked bleak from the beginning. I bringing this up not to start up discussion again, but there are those who will accuse you of being in on a cover-up, and this is to keep the release of that information from becoming a new issue. Dan's family has suffered enough. -- Ray Griffin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Ray.Griffin@p0.f19.n19.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f19.n19.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Ray.Griffin Subject: Re: Mysterious fireballs Date: 2 Feb 90 04:11:00 GMT Typical material composition of core should not burm green, but it can upon rare types. I believe pink however would be out of the question for science to explain. -- Ray Griffin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Ray.Griffin@p0.f19.n19.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!f28.n30163.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Jerry.Seward Subject: New Affiliate Date: 2 Feb 90 06:49:00 GMT > Please welcome a new ParaNet affiliate: > > ParaNet ALPHA-ETA(sm) > Jerry Seward > Rochester, New York > 716-436-2759 > > Jerry is involved with a group called The Rochester UFO > Study Group. > Thanks for the welcome, Michael. I'm restructering my QuickBBS system now and should have the board available for Paranet callers within the next few days. I look forward to participating in your exciting forum. The Rochester UFO Study Group has been in existence for over 26 years, but I've just become a member a few years ago. Our group takes a serious look at all issues relating to UFOlogy and one of our members has initiated a local hotline for reporting incidents. Having 'instant' access to the experts and seasoned investigators that participate on the Paranet forum will greatly enhance or own queries and help us keep abreast of new developments as they happen. -- Jerry Seward - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jerry.Seward@f28.n30163.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!f3.n30163.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Doug.Rogers Subject: Paranet Echo Guidelines Date: 2 Feb 90 13:54:14 GMT At the request of the Administrator, I'm re=posting the guidelines for posting in the echos. I hope this will make some of my recent comments to individuals a bit clearer. ******* PARANET ECHO POLICIES ******** The following are guidelines for the operation of the Paranet Echos on member boards. Please take a moment to read (and understand) these policies. If we'll adopt these attitudes, we'll have a more polite, effective network. 1. No anonymous messages may be posted on the network. Some Paranet BBS's allow users to use "handles". If a user uses a handle, then all posts to Paranet Echos must be signed at the end of the message using the user's REAL NAME. It is the responsibility of the Sysop of each Paranet Node to enforce this requirement, either by reviewing all messages before release, or by disallowing Paranet access to users using handles. 2. Personal Attacks are *NOT* allowed in the Net. In any echo dealing with issues as emotional as those with which we deal it is a matter of course that the validity of testimony on the part of certain individuals will be called into question. It is important, however, to remember that *ALL* parties are to be treated with respect. If you wish to question a person's validity, state your reservations AS YOUR OPINION. For example: "John Doe is a totally unreliable witness" could leave you legally vulnerable. "I BELIEVE John Doe to be a totally unreliable witness" is much better, especially if you can add "because...". Please be careful how you judge the parties involved, and attempt to defend your contentions. 3. Direct Flames are best posted elsewhere. They will not be tolerated in the echos. 4. References should be included if required for clarity. Some users tend to copy the entirity of previous messages before responding, while others never quote anything and simply make comments about previous posts. You should remember that many boards don't hold all messages forever. Quote (if your software allows it) or at least paraphrase (write a simple summary of) the content of the message you refer to. Please DO NOT quote the entire message, as this is just expense for all boards concerned. Quote only the germaine material. 5. Please make all messages conform to the specified content of the Echo Area in which you are posting. Putting the messages in the right pile makes it MUCH easier to make sense out of the stacks of messages. 6. Enforcement. Users who violate these guidelines will be advised of the lapse by the Echo Moderator. After three violation notices, the user is to be locked out of Paranet areas by the sysop. A FIRST lockout will be for THIRTY DAYS. A SECOND lockout will be for NINETY days. The THIRD lockout will be PERMANENT. Sysops who refuse to lock out troublesome users can be dropped from the net by the Paranet Administrator. Users who believe the Moderator has been unfair in requesting a lockout can request that their Sysop plead their case in the Sysop Echo. In such cases, ALL net Sysops will be asked to vote on the matter. Vote of the net is binding on all concerned. Doug Rogers Echo Moderator -- Doug Rogers - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Doug.Rogers@f3.n30163.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!John.Boston Subject: PHOTOGRAPH Date: 2 Feb 90 14:21:00 GMT i ONCE SEEN A PHOTOGRAPH IN A BOOK OR UFO CONVENTION AND I WOULD LIKE TO GET A COPY. THIS PHOTO WAS A PICTURE OF A CLASSIC FLYING SAUCER FLYING OVER A MAIN HIGHWAY WITH TWO CARS IN THE PICTURE WITH ONE UNDER THE SAUCER. I HAVE BEEN TOLD THERE WERE TWO FEMALES IN THE CAR. ALSO ON EACH SIDE OF THE SAUCER ARE WHAT LOOKED LIKE COBRA HELICOPTERS FLYING ESCOURT. I HAVE QALSO BEEN TOLD THAT IT WAS TAKEN AT WRIGHT PAT AIR FORCE BASE. CAN ANYONE TELL ME MORE INFO. ON THIS PICTURE AND WHERE I CAN GET A COPY. THANKS JOHN -- John Boston - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: John.Boston@p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!f26.n30163.z1.FIDONET.ORG!steve.rose Subject: Re: Mars Face Date: 1 Feb 90 16:21:47 GMT > telescopes. We are dealing with something that has already > been on the publics mind for a few years and that the proof, > if there ever is any, will be at best, slightly ambiguous, > at least initially, since it will be based on flyby photos > with on-site sampleing many decades away. In my *opinion* > people are mucbetter at accepting such things then you are > giving them credit for; a million year old artifact isn't > going to affect the shine on their BMW so they aren't going > to get too worked up about it. True enough. The movie and TV series "Alien Nation" is a fine fictional example of this. Life goes on... -- steve rose - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: steve.rose@f26.n30163.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) Subject: Re: Mars Face and Skeptics Date: 2 Feb 90 18:20:28 GMT -+From: paranet!p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Jim.Delton -+Subject: Re: Mars Face Jim: Before things get a bit out of hand, let me grant you that I think that a good portion of the population will probably handle the discovery of of life elsewhere in the universe quite well. But I can not grant you that the remaining minority won't cause problems, potentially major and serious problems. You seem willing to extend to all the proposition that they are basically logical and informed people with the desire for positive development. I seriously have to disagree with this. Having been a preacher in a conservative fundamentalist Christian denomination at one time (long story), I can tell you that those folks will not adapt easily, if ever. That is why I pointed to the Creationists and anti-abortionists in my last post. Let me point you to something else. You can say that what I'm about to point to is pure fiction, but consider it for a while before making such a judgement. The TV show Alien Nation. The Purists are exactly what I'm thinking of, and such people are far more dangerous than some might think. Also, think about groups like the Klan or the Aryan Nation who would only be too happy to join in. Jim, I simply cannot ignore those folks and the resulting reactions. Now on to some of the points in your post. + + I'm afraid that you are confusing revising history with revising + science or adding to our knowledge. The face on mars is not going to + suddenly cause us to realize that water doesn't freeze at 32 degrees, + or that like magnets really don't repeal, or that gasoline really + doesn't catch fire. Some scientists may be forced to change their + opinions but, in and of itself, proof positive of the face being + artifical, will not have much effect at all on what we "know" aside + from that one fact and the implications and new ideas that will spring + from it. Does not our current scientific view say that we are the only lifeform in this solar system? Doesn't our current scientific view state that at the most only primitive life could have evolved on Mars, and that that life is probably dead lo these many millennia? Doesn't our current scientific view state that no aliens (ETs if you prefer) have ever visited Earth, past and present? And who's to say that some of the bascis might not change depending upon what we discover on Mars, if the objects turn out to be of artificial origin. I think we will have to rewrite and revise some of our science, as well as our history. I don't see how you can get around that. But that is how it should be. We are constantly discovering things that cause revision of thinking and the current standard textbooks. I don't see it as a problem or negative. + + There are already a fair number of people who seem to be + convinced that the face is of artifical origin but I haven't seen it + having all that much effect on thier lives. Lets say we do get proof + tomarrow. It is front page news. Will that mean you quit you job? + Why? Will that mean people stream into the churches? Fair number! But then you have people like Sagan and those who follow his thinking, which I believe is the majority of the scientific community. Would I quit my job? No, but I might try to find one that got me into the mainstream of further research on the Martian objects. And, yes, there will be people streaming into churches for the reasons that I've already covered. Not everybody is as adaptable as you seem to think they are. Enough of them so that we will have problems on our hands. When the established authorities go before the public and announce that alien life has definitely be found, I hope that I'm around and still in touch with you. I think you'll find it rather interesting to see the results on society, in general, and the conservative 'Purists' types specifically. Though I doubt that I'll live long enough to see it. + + WHy would they + when so many had no problem dealing with "Chariots of the Gods" and its + "proof" of long ago alien visits right here on earth. Personally, Jim, I don't consider _Chariots_of_the_Gods_ as providing evidence of anything--except one man's incredible imagination and poor scholarship. On UFOs, I think that there are far better cases to study. Evidence of past contact may well be all around us, but the evidence presented by von Daniken was quickly shown to be highly inaccurate and in some cases imaginary. Shoot, Jim, I never even read his books. + people are mucbetter at accepting such things then you are giving them + credit for; a million year old artifact isn't going to affect the shine + on their BMW so they aren't going to get too worked up about it. Let me just say that I hope you are right and I'm wrong. But I don't have nearly as much faith as you seem to have. Maybe it's due to living through several wars and spending two years in the jungles of Viet Nam myself. Maybe it's due to watching the great propensity for my fellow creatures to wreack havoc and destruction over what seems to me something inconsequential. Maybe it's a combination of everything. But whatever the reason, I don't give that much credit to them. -+From: paranet!p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Jim.Delton -+Subject: Re: Skeptics + + You say the establishment stands clear of UFO's and martian objects. + While I think there is some basis for the part about UFO's, just what + would you like the establishment to do in regard to the martian + objects?? Aside from a trip back to mars, which is a little outside th + budget of most researchers, just what research should the local + university be engaged in with regard to the face, that would add + anything to what has already been done? I think you are condeming the + establishment for failing to do something that is clearly impossible. What do I want from the establishment is rather straight forward--fund the research that is currently under way. Give it a fair and impartial hearing in public forums. Even with the data that we have now, we can probably learn a lot. The vast majority of the photos taken of Mars have not been developed and looked at and it would be nice if facilities could be provided to get those photos developed and examined. I know that I sound rather sour about the establishment. I assure you that I'm not really sour about science nor scientists, just the arrogant, supercilious, know-it-all types who seem generally to be in charge. I dislike the treatment accorded to those independent researchers and scholars who are looking into things that the establishment has spurned as not fitting in with the current standard view of "reality." Such things as UFOs and the Martian objects are but two of the areas that go against the current view, but that doesn't mean that there isn't something to these that needs to be researched and examined. Frankly, from what I've run across just in the past few weeks, I'd say that we have a lot to research and examine. Shalom alechem, Gene -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: swarren@convex (Steve Warren) Subject: Re: Mars Face Date: 2 Feb 90 19:31:45 GMT +From: paranet!p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Jim.Delton [...] +doesn't catch fire. Some scientists may be forced to change their +opinions but, in and of itself, proof positive of the face being +artifical, will not have much effect at all on what we "know" aside [...] Well, my overall attitude toward the face is one of skepticism, however my mind remains open. If the face should prove to be artificial it would mean one of four things: 1) A native ecosystem once thrived on Mars, allowing an intelligent indigent species to live and to build such artifacts. Implications: Mars would then be expected to house a treasure-trove of fossilized remains of these ancient native Martian flora and fauna. The study of these remains would likely revolutionize the biological sciences, as well as spawning a new and distinct branch of archeology. 2) A race of creatures predating human-kind and possessing powerful technology once lived on Earth and colonized Mars. Implications: These creatures either died out completely or abandoned the Earth. What happened to them, and what does this mean for the future of the human race? This might have profound social ramifications. In addition, is it possible that well preserved artifacts from this civilization would still exist on Mars? Perhaps images and descriptions of ancient life forms from Earth? What would this do for the field of paleontology? 3) A race of space-faring creatures visited the solar-system long ago, leaving artifacts on several planets. They left and apparently have never returned. Implications: There are other races that are 'accessible' in the universe (ie we are not alone). The fact that they were able to cross the void of space to reach us tells us that their technology was far advanced beyond us at least 1,000,000 years ago. They would have advanced even further by now. It may be possible to travel galactic distances without paying the relativistic penalties (some kind of space- warping trick that bypasses the intervening space rather than traveling through it?). We may find evidence of how these creatures communicate across space. Finding their artifacts on Mars may mean only a short time before we could actually be in contact with them. This would of course ruin all the fun for many scientists ;^). All the secrets they have struggled painfully to uncover for a life-time revealed for free, and they didn't have anything to do with it. It would have to be a bitter-sweet thing for them, excitement over the longed-for knowledge, combined with the loss of the challenge (sort of like having someone read you all the answers to a cross-word puzzle, then you slap your head and say, 'I could've figured that out!'). 4) The 'mysterious' non-explanation. What if whoever built the structure didn't need vehicles to get to Mars, and didn't need tools or technology to build it? What if they are Vallee's "interdimensional travelers" or whatever one wants to call them: fairies, angels/demons; some kind of creature that functions outside our observed realm of experience. What if the artifacts are there not to inform us, but to deceive and confuse us? Implications: Assuming that this turned out to be the case, *and* investigators were able to *confirm* this as fact, it would become the first hard evidence of a physical reality relating to the "supernatural" realm. This would certainly have the most profound implications for science of any of the four scenarios I have outlined. The possibility that the structures are artificial seems so unlikely that any explanation for it would also seem to be fantastic. Therefore in the interest of open-mindedness I have included every explanation I could imagine. Having read back over them all, I remain convinced that skepticism is the wisest attitude to cultivate without further evidence. Cheers, --Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------- {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; swarren@convex.COM -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Jim.Delton Subject: Re: Skeptomania is cool Date: 2 Feb 90 16:01:00 GMT I think you missed something. John and I agree on most things we have discussed except that while he is convinced that the greenhouse "thing" is not what it is made out to be, I don't feel I have studied it enough to form a good opinion on it. He and I both agree that free speech is a two way street -- that the "believers are entitled to express their beliefs but that the non-beleivers are ALSO entitled to express their NON-belief and in just as strong of terms as the believers. -- Jim Delton - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Delton@p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Jim.Speiser Subject: Re:ignorance!! Date: 2 Feb 90 16:41:00 GMT > > Hey, Jim, we'll certainly be willing to supply your ignorance > needs! > > > Yrs. Truly, > Rick M. > Secretary, Bay Area Skeptics No need to wag your grin at me, Rick - I think you know what I'm saying. By the way, I established contact with the skeptics on that board, and I was right, they were ignorant of the issues. I think the difference between yourself and these guys illustrates the difference between informed and uninformed skepticism. You seem to be pretty "up" on things, and you also seem disinclined to the intellectual snobbery I see rampant in many skeptics, whereas these guys were full of little side comments such as "No evidence ", etc. Needless to say, I shook them up a little. I also gave them the number for our Atlanta board, Tau Gamma (which I hope is still active??) so they may be logging in here soon enough. Perhaps you can set them straight on the proper application of skepticism. Jim -- Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Speiser@f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Jim.Speiser Subject: Re: Mysterious Fireballs Date: 2 Feb 90 16:47:00 GMT > I noticed Jim Speiser's message about green fireballs, however as > I recall from the Project Twinkle material, LaPaz felt that green > fireballs was just not normal for a meteor. But in my reading of Twinkle, I didn't see any explanation of WHY such fireballs would not be normal. I think what was troubling LaPaz was the frequency of the occurences, more than anything. If they ARE mysterious, I still think they are a distinct subclass of mystery, separate from the "TRUFOs" we find so interesting. I see them as a problem more for meteoritics experts, not ufologists. > > Also, if these are meteorites, why are they becoming so prominent > all of a sudden? There have been literally scores of reports of > these lately.s Picture this: a collision in space eons ago that breaks up a planetoid or asteroid with a high degree of copper composition. The pieces are basically confined to one area in space, and the movement of our solar system just happens to be bringing us through that area of space. Like you, I'm no scientist, but that seems to make sense to me. Jim -- Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Speiser@f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Jim.Speiser Subject: Current Affair Upcoming Expose (?) Date: 2 Feb 90 16:51:00 GMT > Perhaps someone in the UFO community could offer Maury some > assistance with his story...Mike, Don, Jim?? I would, but something tells me its hopeless. If ACA is anything like Inside Edition, they will go looking for the negative evidence, the whole negative evidence and nothing but the negative evidence. Jim -- Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Speiser@f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f26.n123.z1.FIDONET.ORG!John.Komar Subject: Re: Journalist needs info Date: 2 Feb 90 18:54:00 GMT In a message to All <01-12-90 21:20> infopara@scicom.alphacdc.com wrote: in=>-Keith Rowell, Tektronix, Wilsonville, OR Keith, I replied to your messages listing the info I have re the cattle mutiliatiions in your area, but the message was returned stating you do not exist at that node. This is getting stranger by the message! John -- John Komar - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: John.Komar@p0.f26.n123.z1.FIDONET.ORG ********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to******** 'infopara' at the following address: UUCP {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara DOMAIN infopara@scicom.alphacdc.com ADMIN Address infopara-request@scicom.alphacdc.com {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara-request ******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************