Info-ParaNet Newsletters, Number 205 Monday, April 16th 1990 Today's Topics: Re: 3 Star Interview Re: Black Helicopters Re: Fyffe Sighting Klass Re: Conviction of Adm Poindexter Re: Black Helicopters Re: Conviction of Adm Poindexter Re: Important Info. Re: Black Helicopters Re: Moore Of The Same! Re: Black Helicopters Re: 3 Star Interview Re: Conviction of Adm Poindexter Re: Black Helicopters Re: Black Helicopters Re: 3 Star Interview True.. Re: Spies, Lies & ET's Re: Black Helicopters Science ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Jim.Delton Subject: Re: 3 Star Interview Date: 13 Apr 90 04:40:00 GMT Yes, I suspect it would be hard to find a firm that was disconnected enough from gvt to be truely private that would also be considered suitable for such use BY the gvt. Theyl would need enough tentacles into the firm to maintain a reasonable degree of control. -- Jim Delton - via FidoNet node 1:209/722 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Delton@p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Schwartz Subject: Re: Black Helicopters Date: 13 Apr 90 06:01:00 GMT I asked about filing an official complaint, and was told that without a tail number on the craft, or clear military markings, there was no way to verify the craft. I didn't push it farther than that, since I assumed it would lead down a dead end. -- Michael Schwartz - via FidoNet node 1:209/722 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Schwartz@p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!Jerry.Woody Subject: Re: Fyffe Sighting Date: 14 Apr 90 00:19:00 GMT Hi Gene; Sorry I missed this message for so long. My Paranet feed went down for a few days and things got lost in the shuffle. I'll try to keep you up to date. Jerry -- Jerry Woody - via FidoNet node 1:209/722 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jerry.Woody@paranet.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Jim.Speiser Subject: Klass Date: 13 Apr 90 21:47:00 GMT Thank you for your clarifications, John. Now, for some of my own. -+ > On the the Univ. of Nebraska conference case, nobody has -+ > presented any confirming evidence and my question on -+ > what grounds Klass could threaten UN with legal action -+ > has not been answered. -+ > Since a later MUFON conference -+ > was held at UN, the story is suspect. I have a letter in to Dan Wright, Deputy Director of MUFON, who has an entire file on this incident. You should be hearing from me further on this issue in great detail in a few weeks. Klass, incidentally, does not deny the incident; he and I have actually spoken about it. -+ > Clark in "Fringes of Reason," JC speaks of the MJ-12 -+ > documents as not having been refuted by Klass despite -+ > "frantic" efforts. At the time JC wrote, the documents were still under strong scrutiny by several groups independently. They had not been refuted. Klass had damned the documents from day one by means of loud protest, using unqualified statements such as "outrageous hoax," but failed to produce any convincing evidence until the recent Truman signature. Most of the best debunking of the documents was done by Barry Greenwood and Christopher Allen, as I have mentioned. The point is that, right out of the chute, while the rest of us were saying, "there is sufficient reason to be highly suspicious of these documents," Klass was yelling "fraud," belying his anti-UFO bias. Again, John, I do not question Klass' integrity, only his objectivity, and therefore his methods, and therefore his suitability at representing CSICOP and Establishment Science. -+ > Klass has challenged alleged abductees to -+ > report their kidnapping to the FBI as the government -+ > can impose fairly heavy penalties for false crime -+ > reports.($10,000 fine + prison?) The challenge was met almost the very day Klass issued it. When he appeared with Budd Hopkins on Oprah Winfrey and dared abductees to go to the FBI, Hopkins produced a packet containing copies of cases which had been transmitted to the Bureau with the full cooperation of his abductees - including name and address. Pointless? Of course... you and I both know what the FBI's reaction would be, and so did Hopkins....AND so did Klass. There would be no reaction, either for against the alleged abductees. So why did Klass issue the challenge? I really don't know, do you have any ideas? Jim -- Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:209/722 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Speiser@f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Don.Allen Subject: Re: Conviction of Adm Poindexter Date: 14 Apr 90 01:50:00 GMT JD>And at least one of them, I think it was Carter, essentially said that he JD> would make the gvt open its books on UFO's if he was elected. Yes,I remember hearing the same thing as well. Nothing much was ever spoken about this publicly thereafter. It may have been that Carter was told not to say anything from ssome of the intelligence agencies,I don't know. JD>I am not persuaded by any of their arguments that they have actually JD>figured out the truth, but I am convinced that there is something that the JD>gvt knows that relates to UFO's that they are, in fact, not telling us. It JD>may be as simple as "We don't know what the heck is up their and until JD>we do we are going to continue to deny ANYTHING is up their." Well,like you I'm not so sure either that the Govt knows the "whole" truth.....or it it does,the Govt ain't saying. Considering our race's propensity towards violence and confusion given certain circumstances (ie. the looting in the wake of Hurricane Hugo,etc) and other natural "disasters"...certainly the Govt might feel that it's unwise to come forth and go on record publicly about otherwordly visitors on this world..there was something about this mentioned in Don Ecker's recent postings that touched briefly on this very issue..to wit,that if UFO's WERE public knowledge,how would the public react..how would the Religions of the world react to this..the ramifications of all of this is staggering if you stop and consider it.. I don't believe at all that it would be accepted calmly by all the world's different societies. Personally,I think that there WOULD be mass confusion in some areas. Especially would the commercial powers-that-be would be threatened if a craft WERE to land and provide info on the FREE distribution of electricity,or how to grow food cheaper and easier,etc. It's a matter of when it happens and I believe that it's quite possible that we ARE being "prepared" in stages to accept what we now call (UFO's) as being a reality. My wife has the distinction of being a real skeptic about all of this,which I see as a necessary thing as being a point of BALANCE. Her point is not unlike a lot of viewpoints I have seen,which is chiefly, "I'll believe it when I see a UFO land on the White House lawn or on National (ABC,CBS,NBC,CNN) TV. Unlike her,I HAVE seen a UFO up-close and for me,that is a good deal of the proof that I've required. I don't need reams of documentation to believe in what my own eyes proved,nor do I need to undergo hypnosis. But that's just me,and most people WILL require the documentation to express an opinion one way or the other,and I think that's a muchly needed factor here,until we can arrive at a SOLID consensus. I think we just need more time to gather information and sort it all out as to what we can do (if anything). -- Don Allen - via FidoNet node 1:209/722 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Don.Allen@p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Jim.Delton Subject: Re: Black Helicopters Date: 14 Apr 90 03:35:00 GMT Although it may not have had markings I got the impression from you discription that it could not have been anything other then military, no one else would be flying an armed copter. -- Jim Delton - via FidoNet node 1:209/722 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Delton@p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Jim.Delton Subject: Re: Conviction of Adm Poindexter Date: 14 Apr 90 03:41:00 GMT The only thing I would disagree with is the idea that business want's it covered up due to the loss of profits from "free food" , "free electricity" etc. It's true that there would be a slight economic impact for a short period of time but it would be very slight and the transition would cover a good many years. The reason I say that is that we already have many free things, like the air we breath, and for all practical purposes, the water we drink, and when it comes right down to it, you can eat pretty cheaply if you like beans and bread. All that the new "free" things would mean is that we would ALL ahve a higher standard of living. Given that the amount of available labor is a fixed quantity, if some people were freed from haveing to labor to produce food, they could shift their labors to produceing more and/or cheaper computers, and more people would be able to afford them (and modems too) and the various UFO echos could grow. -- Jim Delton - via FidoNet node 1:209/722 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Delton@p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Jim.Delton Subject: Re: Important Info. Date: 14 Apr 90 04:47:00 GMT Isn't leaving public messages regarding things that can't be discussed openly one of the marks of a professional investigator? -- Jim Delton - via FidoNet node 1:209/722 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Delton@p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Jim.Speiser Subject: Re: Black Helicopters Date: 12 Apr 90 06:36:00 GMT -+ > features a cover story on the NSA entitled "Eyes Only". The article -+ > points out that the NRO (Natn'l. Recon.) really exists. So the alleged -+ > home of the Black Copters isn't just a Cooperfiction after all! John, I think Cooper got that from me. I rattled off a list of spook agencies at him once, just to test his knowledge. He feigned familiarity with the NRO, I think. At least he had never mentioned it before, and then a couple of days later, out he comes with another "OK, this is REALLY it" file, in which he mentions the NRO. But yes, the NRO is one agency I've been very interested in for a long time. While everyone was whispering "NSA" with an air of reverent mystery, I was picking up dribs and drabs about the National Recon Office. Apparently its run by the Navy, its budget is more highly classified than the Puzzle Palace, and I cannot for the life of me find out where its headquartered. Did the article shed any light on this? Jim -- Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:209/722 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Speiser@f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Jim.Speiser Subject: Re: Moore Of The Same! Date: 12 Apr 90 06:38:00 GMT -+ > Jim: There's going to be at least one more excavation expedition at the -+ > crash site. Anyone who wants to help out with the "grunt work" is -+ > invited to go along & should contact CUFOS. When??? -+ > kiddie koffins (sorry!). Mark said that the CUFOS investigation -+ > revealed no such info & that it sounded like BS. -- John OK. I thought it CAME from CUFOS, but guess I was wrong. Jim -- Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:209/722 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Speiser@f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Schwartz Subject: Re: Black Helicopters Date: 12 Apr 90 16:07:00 GMT John, we nearly were! We had to go into a slight skid to keep from hitting the damn thing. You mention "Cooperfiction". I am new to these parts, are you referring to John Cooper? If you could give me more info on what books, and where to find them. This experience has piqued my curiousity to say the least. Also the NSA/NRO bit does not surprise me. Again, this had no markings of any type, was armed to the teeth, and the crew was not wearing a typical military flight suit. We really were that close to it. I know that Marana has been a CIA air station for quite some time (in addition to other duties), and I really wondered if that is where this craft came from, or where else it could have been based. I really do not think it will be very easy to discover where it came from. I contacted the FAA and did not get anywhere. They knew nothing of this kind of craft, where it would be based, or why it would be operating the way it did with total disregard for public safety. That is why I asumed it was a military or intelligence agency operating it. -- Michael Schwartz - via FidoNet node 1:209/722 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Schwartz@p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Jim.Delton Subject: Re: 3 Star Interview Date: 12 Apr 90 23:10:00 GMT I think there is more reason to not believe MJ-12 then to beleive it. Doesn't mean their isn't a high level group charged with keeping an eye on UFO's but it stains my credulity to think that in an effort to turn peoples attentino away from finding out about a high level group they would start a disinformatino campaign about a high level group. What would make infinately more sense, from a disinfo standpoint would be this -- If there was a Private Group, like a small group within RAND corp or some other think tank THEN the idea of a disinfo campaign like MJ-12 would make sense maybe since it would draw people away from PRIVATE groups, as a focal point, toward GVT groups. And vice versa. If you really believe MJ-12 is disinfo, then the place to really be looking is in the PRIVATE consulting area - the various companies that do lots of hush hush gvt work but who AREN"T gvt. -- Jim Delton - via FidoNet node 1:209/722 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Delton@p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Jim.Delton Subject: Re: Conviction of Adm Poindexter Date: 12 Apr 90 23:15:00 GMT I think you are correct, the gvt is not likely to try and shut down any of these UFO nets. It would be a little too obvious. What is much more likely is that they would have a few agents join the net and constantly enter messages that are of the "New age - New Physics" ilk, to keep anyone from being able to maintain a discussion on a level dealing with the world as it exists. As long as people like ts bennett are around to drive everyone up a wall with his innane theories and totally unsupported allegations and ravings, the net will remain pretty innocuous and is unlikely to make any real progress. -- Jim Delton - via FidoNet node 1:209/722 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Delton@p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Jim.Delton Subject: Re: Black Helicopters Date: 12 Apr 90 23:17:00 GMT The NRO (Nat recon Office) existance has been common knowledge for quite a few years now. A recent article about it in no way provides any support for Coopers material. -- Jim Delton - via FidoNet node 1:209/722 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Delton@p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Jim.Delton Subject: Re: Black Helicopters Date: 12 Apr 90 23:22:00 GMT When you called the FAA did you just make inquiry or did you tell them you wanted to file smoething inthe way of an offical complaint. I'm sure they would rather not get involved but I'd like to see you push it as a complaint and demand an investigation. (Course, that's easy for me to say :-) ) o ______/ /() \ -MMMM- \______/ \\ \\ \\ -- Jim Delton - via FidoNet node 1:209/722 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Delton@p0.f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Jim.Speiser Subject: Re: 3 Star Interview Date: 13 Apr 90 00:15:00 GMT -+ > PRIVATE groups, as a focal point, toward GVT groups. And vice versa. -+ > If you really believe MJ-12 is disinfo, then the place to really be -+ > looking is in the PRIVATE consulting area - the various companies that -+ > do lots of hush hush gvt work but who AREN"T gvt. Jim, correct me if I'm wrong, but RAND corporation is at least semi-government, yes? I think you might have an idea there, though. Jim -- Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:209/722 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Speiser@f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!f134.n109.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Forseti Subject: True.. Date: 13 Apr 90 10:59:00 GMT True, there may be nothing to detect..... I believe there is a good possibility UFO's exist, but what puzzles me is that there are (I think) government sponsored projects to contact alien life.. such as those radio waves beamed to the nearest star system and some groups monitoring, waiting for a transmission, etc.. Theyre trying so HARD to find them, and yet if aliens are coming here, how come theres not one single slipup and they detect alien life? -- Forseti - via FidoNet node 1:209/722 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Forseti@f134.n109.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!f725.n209.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Karen.Henderson Subject: Re: Spies, Lies & ET's Date: 14 Apr 90 17:23:40 GMT I agree that there isn't a lot of information with which to make a decision out there concerning UFO's. If you ever have someone who you trust (relative) who has seen them, then you're more inclined to believe. You can't prove it to others, but who cares about them, anyhow? Not everyone will believe everything that can be proven, anyway. -- Karen Henderson - via FidoNet node 1:209/722 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Karen.Henderson@f725.n209.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paranet!f725.n209.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Karen.Henderson Subject: Re: Black Helicopters Date: 14 Apr 90 17:28:43 GMT Try Groom Lake, NV. -- Karen Henderson - via FidoNet node 1:209/722 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Karen.Henderson@f725.n209.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: isis!well!ddrasin (Dan Drasin) Subject: Science Date: 15 Apr 90 05:11:26 GMT Science -+ From: koreth@ebay.sun.com (Steven Grimm) -+ What you call chronocentricity, I call science. Isn't that what -+ science is all about? Forming a theory to explain a phenomenon -+ based on the best currently available data? Better read that posting again, Steven. "Chronocentricity" wasn't defined as forming reasonable theories based on current knowledge, but as holding the belief that current knowledge is complete. Science is based on process. It's founded on the belief that knowledge is always incomplete and open-ended. If it weren't, it would have called it quits in the 17th Century. Isn't that fairly obvious? Science came into being precisely to *challenge* the notion that any body of knowledge was "final." At least that's the way I learned it. -+ What sort of world do you have when people just assume that -+ everything is beyond explanation? You must have read a different posting than the one I did, Steve. I don't remember anything about "everything being beyond explanation." That sounds like quite an extreme -- and erroneous --interpretation of what was said. What's your point? =d= ********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to******** 'infopara' at the following address: UUCP {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara DOMAIN infopara@scicom.alphacdc.com ADMIN Address infopara-request@scicom.alphacdc.com {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara-request ******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************