Info-ParaNet Newsletters Volume I Number 395 Friday, April 26th 1991 Today's Topics: Re: Rick Redux (none) Bill Cooper Re: Question from a UFOlogy Sig User - Help Re: HUMAN VISITORS Re: Ivan Sanderson Our humanoid 'visitors' Incident-Indian Point Re: Statements of acceptance Re: Human visitors (none) Re: Extraordinary claims Re: Statements of accepta Csicop Members Phoenix journals OBE Re: Question from a UFOlogy Sig User - Help Re: Redlight ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John.Cockrell@p0.f150.n30163.z1.FIDONET.ORG (John Cockrell) Subject: Re: Rick Redux Date: 18 Apr 91 15:01:00 GMT Well, jeez, axe to grind? I dunno about that one. I was simply exasperated at the strains everyone on this thread was taking to "politely" flame each other. Not to stir up aggression, but I thought that the main philosophy of the BBS was to freely express opinions, popular or not. In this area, where belief is called upon strongly to support any opinion (i.e. ufo's, etc) it is extremely easy for unscrupulous individuals (oops, polite flame) to take advantage of that belief to th own ends, but that's all common knowledge now. I guess my point is taking into account openmindedness, and respect for other peoples integrity, and politeness, and so on and so forth, there is STILL a point where you just have to say, "That's Bullsh*t, and this guy is a real rats' *ss for expecting us, and getting some of us, to believe what he's saying". I think it's better to come right out and say it than hemhaw around trying not to break the rules of the bbs. Sure it's not a good idea to go around slamming people with no reason, but in the context of a frenzied, complex discussion as this thread has been, the reasons for stating personal opinions have valid purpose. Just Wonderin', J.C. -- John Cockrell - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: John.Cockrell@p0.f150.n30163.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ncar!ecn.purdue.edu!lush Subject: (none) Date: 20 Apr 91 19:23:25 GMT From: lush@ecn.purdue.edu (Gregory B Lush) ? When you relieze that the universe is expanding in all ? directions at the speed of light, and has been for all of time. It ? is immpossible to even estimate how long that is. I've heard people say that the universe is expanding like this before. What is the evidence that is cited to justify this statement? I'm not saying that it is wrong; I just don't know what it is based on. Greg (lush@ecn.purdue.edu) -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve.Rose@p1.f134.n109.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Steve Rose) Subject: Bill Cooper Date: 18 Apr 91 06:45:58 GMT cw> are knows as Skeptics) Eventually cw> people will wise up and relieze that cw> there are UFOs, but the question is... cw> WHEN? I can't understand how people cw> can believe that we are all alone in the universe. You, as well as many others, make the same mistake in the statement above. You assume since a person states there are no manned UFOs, they believe there can be no life elsewhere. I...as one of those 'Show me' types...believe nothing of the sort. I am the first to foster a belief in life forms elsewhere, as many others do. I just have NOT been convinced of their physical PRESENSE here on this planet, in this present day time frame. I could turn your statement around and say, "Flashing red lights do not an alien aircraft make!" Show me something more convincing and I'll sing with the rest of them...here in Washington and elsewhere. :-) -- Steve Rose - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Steve.Rose@p1.f134.n109.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda.Bird@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (Linda Bird) Subject: Re: Question from a UFOlogy Sig User - Help Date: 21 Apr 91 05:35:00 GMT Egads! Sounds like William Cooper..... -- Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Linda.Bird@paranet.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda.Bird@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (Linda Bird) Subject: Re: HUMAN VISITORS Date: 21 Apr 91 05:47:00 GMT Because they/it are curious? I can think of no better reason... -- Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Linda.Bird@paranet.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda.Bird@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (Linda Bird) Subject: Re: Ivan Sanderson Date: 21 Apr 91 06:03:00 GMT Clark, I remember reading the one about the farmer. His voice, crying for help, was heard for some time from the spot where he disappeared. Kinda gives ya the willies... Linda -- Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Linda.Bird@paranet.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Clark Matthews) Subject: Our humanoid 'visitors' Date: 21 Apr 91 07:59:00 GMT > P.S. Another widespread assumption also needs to be > challenged: There is > no reason to assume that individual 'greys' are inherently > (i.e., genetically) > brighter than individual human beings. Remember, Cortes > wasn't necessarily > Montezuma's intellectual superior, merely the product of a > culture that had > evolved a vastly more complex technology... Hello Scott, and thanks for your interesting message. I think your postscript may make the key point in my argument: Have you read any of Vallee's books? You might be particularly interested in "Passport to Magonia" and "Dimensions". Montezuma may well have been Cortes' intellectual/spiritual/moral equal. He was certainly the Spaniard's military superior, too. The combined might of his empire could easily have swept away the Spaniards lock, stock & arquebus. But instead of resisting or questioning the motives of the Conquistadores, the Aztecs admitted the fox into the henhouse because they were expecting something that looked like the fox. Six months of rampant smallpox and the complete spiritual collapse of Aztec society did the rest. Which makes your analogy * especially * appropriate. Are we any different at all from the ill-starred Aztecs? No, we are cut from exactly the same cloth. Our expectations of intelligent aliens, will govern our attitudes toward them if/when they show themselves. Actually, I take the contrary view: Whatever our expectations of these creatures may be, that MUST be what these creatures want us to perceive them to be. As a result, they may not be aliens at all. All we really know is that they act the way we expect spacefarers to act (coming here in spaceships, then piling out with shovels and digging holes??? Beside highways? In parks??? Conducting random gynecological examinations??) Who knows, they may be leprechauns. Or sprites. Or fawns, trolls, d'genii, kami, angels, sylphs, demons of Beelzebub's legions, or who knows what else. They may always have been here. They may be inextricably linked to us -- our counterparts in a parallel universe, perhaps? Or future beings keeping events on track throughout the holographic universe? And conversely, we may be inextricably linked to them. On the other hand, they could be smelly, stupid, shaggy cannibals that eat cow's lips (when they can't get hold of a hitchhiker) and wash their snacks down with beakers of ammonia. They just appear to be something different, because it serves their purpose. Or they may appear to be light-years ahead of us because they are terribly vulnerable to us in ways we can't imagine ... because we think we're inferior. Get my drift? I'll stop with the syllogisms. It's good to have an anthropologist on the net, and if you've read the books I mentioned above I hope we can get a discussion going about them. Best, Clark -- Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Don.Ecker@f3.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Don Ecker) Subject: Incident-Indian Point Date: 21 Apr 91 07:02:00 GMT In one of the most dramatic events to occur in recent UFO history, is still today one of the most covered up and least understood event on record. We have all heard of the Hudson Valley UFO events, but how many people know that the Indian Point Nuclear Reactor was also involved? Well Ok, if you are a regular ParaNet member, you do know. But the point is, most people do not know that this happened, and is STILL ongoing. Phil Imbrogno was one of the investigators to these events, and was also co-author with J. A. Hynek in the opus that relays what went on in the Hudson Valley. ( NIGHT SIEGE - Ballantine Books Copyright 1987 ) Imbrogno was extensively interviewed by UFO Magazine for the following story. Turn to ASK UFO and read about the "Incident at Indian Point." Don Ecker -- Don Ecker - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Don.Ecker@f3.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ncar!eniac.seas.upenn.edu!snelson Subject: Re: Statements of acceptance Date: 25 Apr 91 19:15:37 GMT From: snelson@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Steven Nelson) In _Report on Communion_ by Ed Conroy, Phil Klass stated specifically the proof that he wanted. What follows is reproduced without permission, but it's short. KLASS:...I'm sometimes asked, 'Well, haven't you found a case that you could not explain?' To give a short, meaningful response to that, in one of my books and in many of my lectures, I have offered that if, at any time that I'm alive, an honest-to-goodness extraterrestrial craft should land anywhere in the world, or crash, or a physical artifact should be found and examined by the National Academy of Sciences and they were to say this thing could not be made on this earth-- anything that would irrevocably, unquestionably prove beyond all doubt that we've had at least one extraterrestrial visitor-- then I would say to those who've bought my book, 'Mail your book back to me, and... I will refund the full purchase price...' Obviously, Klass is relying on others' scientific expertise to make his decision, but as an editor of Aviation Week magazine, relying on scientific reports made by mainstream organizations is part of his job. So long as there is an alternative to claiming that we are being visited by other planets, Klass will take it. -Steve Nelson -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ncar!neptune.convex.com!swarren Subject: Re: Human visitors Date: 25 Apr 91 21:31:45 GMT From: swarren@neptune.convex.com (Steve Warren) +From: Jim.Greenen@f29.n363.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Jim Greenen) +Subject: Human visitors +Date: 17 Apr 91 13:38:00 GMT [...] +other solar system. If you read the great book, it mentions the +angels came down and mated with man. We can assume that a sprirt +can't mate with a mortal, then who were the angels they mention? [...] Well, if you're going to take the authority of the Bible (by agreeing that angels came down and mated with human women) then obviously the beings referred to in the Bible as angels *are* in fact capable of mating with humans, according to the Bible. The Bible refers to angels as spirits, but it never implies that *all they are* is spirits. They are also described as having corporal bodies, although their spirits do not always inhabit their bodies, according to the Bible. I can get specific references if you are interested. _. --Steve ._||__ DISCLAIMER: All opinions are my own. Warren v\ *| ---------------------------------------------- V {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; swarren@convex.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ncar!ecn.purdue.edu!lush Subject: (none) Date: 25 Apr 91 21:35:53 GMT From: lush@ecn.purdue.edu (Gregory B Lush) ? ? From: John.Hicks@p2.f29.n363.z1.FIDONET.ORG (John Hicks) ? Subject: Again? ? Date: 17 Apr 91 19:25:00 GMT ? ? ? > Hmmmm...isn't it about the time for them to gear up for the ? > upcoming tourist season? This seems to becoming a springtime ? > ritual. ? ? Good point. Seems like something happens early every April. ? ? jbh Even if the local powers that be are taking advantage of the media hype to attract tourist dollars, that does not make the events less real. It just makes the local government smart. Greg (lush@ecn.purdue.edu) -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rick.Moen@f27.n125.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Rick Moen) Subject: Re: Extraordinary claims Date: 21 Apr 91 19:51:59 GMT John -- I note your 160-line posting on scientific method in the INFO.PARANET echo-conference. I will consider discussing this topic with you in some more appropriate forum, such as FidoNet science or a Usenet sci.* newsgroup, if you like, and will gladly overlook the various smear tactics, and ongoing use of such verbiage as "whining" and "platitudes", and assume _tentatively_ (as you correctly but needlessly note is the nature of all scientific knowledge) that you seek a substantive discussion. 'Won't hold my breath, though. Best Regards, Rick M. -- Rick Moen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Rick.Moen@f27.n125.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rick.Moen@f27.n125.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Rick Moen) Subject: Re: Statements of accepta Date: 21 Apr 91 20:10:23 GMT John -- I note what seem to be your objections to my posting to Jim Speiser. I see you are still trying to imply something about my allegedly deleting download files or listing them classified according to credibility, something I never said I did, and have in fact specifically said I don't. I note that you deny attempting a two-year smear campaign on various echoes, preferring a more agreeable characterisation. Whatever. I think you've made your intent abundantly clear. I note that you indicate comprehension that I am _not_ a member of CSICOP, but serve as a member of its Electronic Communications Subcommittee, and do not purport to speak for it. Good. That's progress of a sort. I note that you ask if it would be appropriate for you to ask if I support CSICOP's views. I don't know if the question is appropriate, but I will consider the question to be asked. Before I could answer it, we would have to establish what CSICOP's views _are_, and then you could ask me how I felt about each of those views. Perhaps it would be easier if you were to just formulate a "view" and ask my opinion. However, I don't really see the point, much less why this should interest INFO.PARANET. Lastly, I note that you seem to second my suggestion of contacting UFOlogists to ask them what evidence would suffice to convince them of the ET hypothesis. How nice. Best Regards, Rick M. -- Rick Moen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Rick.Moen@f27.n125.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rick.Moen@f27.n125.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Rick Moen) Subject: Csicop Members Date: 21 Apr 91 20:39:39 GMT John T's latest missive brings up a matter I've been meaning to ask someone about: Basically everyone with at least a passing aquaintance with CSICOP knows that it's a _committee_, which puts out a quarterly journal, and that the committee is the only actual CSICOP _membership_; that the Fellows, Scientific and Technical Consultants, and subcommittee chairs listed in "Skeptical Inquirer" are not "members" (much less are the unnamed _other_ subcommittee members). Occasionally, some persons disregard this fact for rhetorical reasons, but we can ignore them. The committee itself is technically referred to by CSICOP employees as the "Executive Council" or "Executive Committee" (a fact _not_ generally known). What I don't know is its current membership. Obviously, it includes Paul Kurtz (chairman, humanist high-muckity-muck, and prof. of philosophy at SUNY Buffalo). I would guess the rest to be as follows: James Alcock (prof. of psychology, York U.), Kendrick Frazier (editor), Phil Klass, Randi, and Ray Hyman (prof. of psychology, U. of Oregon). Possibly CSICOP's Executive Director also serves -- the fourth and current one being Barry Karr. Do you know anything about this? It's curious that the list is never published in their journal. Best Regards, Rick M. -- Rick Moen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Rick.Moen@f27.n125.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bryce.Eckstein@f10.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bryce Eckstein) Subject: Phoenix journals Date: 17 Apr 91 16:36:00 GMT Hello Gregory! In a msg of <08 Apr 91>, Gregory B Lush writes to All: GBL> Well, I broke down. Here is an excerpt from one of the Phoenix GBL> Journals. It is included in both 'Space-Gate--The Veil Removed' GBL> and in 'Spiral to Economic Disaster' from America West Publ. Can you give me any information as to where I can obtain a copy of the Phoenix Journals? Thanks. Bryce -- Bryce Eckstein - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Bryce.Eckstein@f10.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James.Nugent@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (James Nugent) Subject: OBE Date: 22 Apr 91 22:32:00 GMT Well I have read multitudes of info. on OBE's and so far nothing written has helped me to experience one purposely. I have heard a lot about a 'silver strand' that connects the astral body with the physical. It existes in much literature and in many documented(not proved) cases. As for 'higher-dimentional life forms that use machines to capture astral bodys' I have so far only heard it from you. If you are refering to L. Ron Hubbard maybe he should just stay with science-fiction. The idea could make one hell of book though. I believe I experienced an OBE once but haven't been able to duplicate it. You may want to talk with someone who has them if you want to kind-of get an understanding of what is involved. There are supposidly many ways to go out-of-body. I'll leave it up to you to find one as none have worked for me. -- James Nugent - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: James.Nugent@paranet.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Clark Matthews) Subject: Re: Question from a UFOlogy Sig User - Help Date: 22 Apr 91 13:41:00 GMT > Egads! Sounds like William Cooper..... Oh my Goodness! Is THAT how Mr. Cooper sounds?! Heavens to Betsy!! I shall sue him, just as soon as I get my flat tires fixed. Cheers, Otis PS -- hehehehhehe -- Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ak842@cleveland.Freenet.Edu Subject: Re: Redlight Date: 26 Apr 91 20:54:47 GMT From: ak842@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Douglas Dever) Don't you hate those pesky landing lights, and anti-collision lights on an airplane... Either that, or John might be right... tourist season. This is one sighting which for some reason I really doubt. Just like when the crest moon was visible in the middle of the afternoon a few days ago and i kid at school said, 'Look up there... it's a UFO.' People need to look into something before they scream 'Quick, get a scientist, call the police, better yet, call the paper! IT'S A UFO!!!' -- __ Douglas A. Dever __ ! INTERNET: ak842@cleveland.freenet.edu ****** IRC CHAT ****** ! ac502@medina.freenet.edu (soon I-net) ****** Niltsiar ****** ! BITNET: ak842%cleveland.freenet.edu@cunyvm I cannot be held responsible for this message since my foot is in my mouth. ********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to******** 'infopara' at the following address: UUCP {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara DOMAIN infopara@scicom.alphacdc.com ADMIN Address infopara-request@scicom.alphacdc.com {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara-request ******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************