Abduction Digest, Number 47 Tuesday, February 11th 1992 (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service. All Rights Reserved. Today's Topics: Abductions Answers Answers continued Abductions Re: Premature Births Breakdown Abductions Your Wildcat! Abduction Research ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David.Jacobs@f21.n1010.z9.PARANET.ORG (David Jacobs) Subject: Abductions Date: 3 Feb 92 07:34:52 GMT I have recently written in my new book that to the best of my knowledge all abductees have been physically not in place during the abduction. This statement seems rather sweeping but I feel that it is accurate. The Puddy case is interesting but quite obviously the event that you describe is not an abduction. Mrs Puddy might indeed be an abductee (the sightings that she had earlier experienced might be evidence of this) but the incident in the car has all the earmarks of either being a "channeled" episode or a flashback to a previous event, or evidence of mental instability. Whereas on the surface it might appear that this has all the hallmarks of an apparent abduction, in fact the description that she gave of the entity, the entity's movements, the entity's motivations, and so forth, would be immediately suspicious to me. Her description of the inside of a UFO might well have been picked up either from a previous abduction or from some outside conventional source. The only way that one can find out these things with a reasonable degree of assurance is by doing hypnosis with somebody who thoroughly understands the abduction phenomenon so that the hypnotist and/or researcher can tell when she veers off what is presently known about abductions. I hope that my book will help in that endeavor. All of this goes back to the problem that Jim Speiser brought up about what is to be believed in conscious recollections of unusual events. People will confabulate, they will remember things wrongly, they will unconsciously elaborate and add material, they will slip into "channeling," and they will exhibit evidence of mental abberations. Separating the wheat from the chaff is a difficult task. But the most important thing to understand is that there is wheat. Dwelling on the chaff is like spending all of one's time ruminating about UFO sightings that are identified! It was the sightings that could not be identified that brought us all here. It is true that we only have a few cases of uninvolved bystanders witnessing an abduction of another person. This situation is involved with the technology employed for carrying out the abduction. Budd Hopkins is at present working on a sensational case that does include bystanders witnessing the abduction. He will probably write a book about it and it will go a very long way towards putting this controversy to rest. The IUR will also publish an article of mine addressing the issue. Budd and I have many cases in which people witness others being abducted and are not abducted themselves. They are often "switched off" so that they can do nothing about it and their accounts are usually, but not always, recovered with the use of hypnosis. We also have many cases in which several people are abducted at once and they can independently confirm their experiences without knowing that their fellow abductees have also remembered the event. Incidentally, Jenny Randles talks about the Sunderland case but makes no reference to her mother seeing her in bed during a supposed abduction. Keep up the good work! Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1 -- David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: David.Jacobs@f21.n1010.z9.PARANET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David.Jacobs@f21.n1010.z9.PARANET.ORG (David Jacobs) Subject: Answers Date: 4 Feb 92 06:49:27 GMT Sheldon, I was not aware of your long messages on file, and I only recently read them. I will try to answer some of your queries as best I can, but you must remember that I certainly do not have all the answers to all questions. Yes, it is possible that those people who are abducted and who ae alone and who are not seen by others might in some way still be physically in place during the abduction. This is something that we cannot be sure of. In the same way we cannot be sure that they did not fly to Mars during their abduction. We cannot be sure that they did not meet with President Bush and then both forgot the incident. Please pardon the humor, but we cannot prove a negative. All the evidence that we have points to the fact that people are not physically in place during an abduction and none of the evidence we have points to their being in place (the Puddy case not withstanding--see my remarks to Keith Basterfield). Could two, three, four or more people have a shared fantasy inwhich they all see each other being abducted and then relate the same events in minute detail? Yes, I suppose anything is possible. Is there any evidence for this? Not a shred. In fact even though Benjamin Simon suggested the Hills were involved with a shared fantasy, or folie a deux, there was also no evidence for this diagnosis other than what he thought. You must remember that shared fantasies in rich, minute, extraordinary detail and length are so rare that they are practically nonexistent and most psychiatrists will never see a case of it. Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1 -- David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: David.Jacobs@f21.n1010.z9.PARANET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David.Jacobs@f21.n1010.z9.PARANET.ORG (David Jacobs) Subject: Answers continued Date: 4 Feb 92 07:19:27 GMT Sorry I pressed the wrong buttons and inadvertently saved the message in mid-word. Do people who see others being abducted associate with them afterwards? Usually that is true. In fact many of the episodes do not come to light until a very long time after the event. Are they in collusion to promote a hoax? I guess it's possible, one cannot prove a negative and therefore we will never be able to prove that it did not happen. Is there any evidence for this? Not a shred. Did they just associate together and therefore pick up the stories either consciously or unconsciously? I suppose that this is also possible, but we have once again found no evidence for it whatsoever. You mention that the data presented that you have read seems to suggest that the abduction phenomenon is internally generated in greater numbers than what I and my colleagues say. The only thing that I can say to that is that in my research and in Budd Hopkins', the idea that abductions are internally generated has been carefully considered and rejected as not fitting the evidence as we have found it in our studies. John Mack, a professor of psychiatry at Harvard University, shares our views and is at a loss to explain how these accounts could possibly be internally generated given the knowledge that we have about the human mind and about the abduction phenomenon. I have tried to address myself to these points in my book (perhaps not as successfully as I should have). How are memories stored in the mind? I used the word "mind" on purpose because I do not know the physiological mechanism for the storage of memories in the brain. In fact, neurologists are just beginning to make some headway in this area. Memory is not well understood even in the most normal of situations and I could not hope to understand how abduction memories physiologically differ. The best that I can do is to describe the process of recollection and try to draw analogies to best make it understood. The best way I can put it is that the memories are "stored" in an "area of the mind" that is not amenable to "normal" recall. Does abuse cause abductions? There is not a shred of evidence to support this contention. It does not seem to matter whether people have been abused or not. Are there more people abused who are abductees than not? To the best of my abilities to estimate, the answer is no. Unfortunately I have not conducted a scientific poll to find out for sure. Of course, since science cannot prove a negative, we can never be absolutely sure that abductees were not abused even though they may have absolutely no awareness of it whatsoever. The problem here is that the abduction phenomenon itself constitutes a form of physical, emotional, and sexual abuse. How does one differentiate this type of abuse from the more common variety? Now we are involved with the complexity of studying the abduction phenomenon and its effects on the victims. I have talked a little bit about this in a piece that I wrote for the Journal of UFO Studies which is due out shortly (actually I am not sure whether Mike Swords is going to run my article--we'll see). Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1 -- David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: David.Jacobs@f21.n1010.z9.PARANET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.PARANET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Subject: Abductions Date: 4 Feb 92 14:03:00 GMT David, Recently, Budd Hopkins was in Denver for a series of lectures on abduction research. He was a very captive guest and the people coming to the lecture enjoyed him immensely. I am curious on a couple of points: 1) I have heard that there are "occult-" related incidents that usually follow an alleged abduction experience. An example is poltergeist activity, heightened psychic perception, etc. How many of your studies does this occur in? Have you found any type of patterns that would link a person's interest or activities in such matters relevant to the experience? 2) CUFOS has just produced a very good video, 'Contact UFO: Alien Abductions,' in which they produce statistics concerning data gleaned from their abduction research. In the video, they state that a certain percentage of abduction experiences involve torture. What does this mean to your research? 3) Do you feel that the related experience is an accurate rendition of what actually happens or do you feel that the recalled memory may be some type of programmed memory, actually hiding the true experience? Thanks for your time. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.PARANET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve.Stelter@f134.n109.z1.PARANET.ORG (Steve Stelter) Subject: Re: Premature Births Date: 8 Feb 92 02:50:00 GMT I agree with you on the fact that some of the abductions could be memories of seeing the doctors when being born, or possibly memories of other times when the abducties might have been hospitalised for whatever reason. I myself have been in the hospital twice and every now and again I wake up with same recurring nightmare of people in blue standing around me doing whatever it is they are doing. Believe me, it's a terrifying experiance. I'm not saying that abductions do occur, but the majority of them are probobly just memories of a hospital stay. -- Steve Stelter - via ParaNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Steve.Stelter@f134.n109.z1.PARANET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vladimir.Godic@f7.n1040.z9.PARANET.ORG (Vladimir Godic) Subject: Breakdown Date: 9 Feb 92 05:31:00 GMT Due to a technical problem, we have lost some of the messages from Paranet when I polled last Thursday, February 6. If anybody has sent messages to Bill Chalker, Keith Basterfield (or myself) since Saturday, February 1, would you kindly send them again. This is just in case you have replied to some of our messages or have any queries. We have had a few hiccups in transmission during the past two weeks. Thank you for your cooperation. Regards from "Down Under", Vlad -- Vladimir Godic - via ParaNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Vladimir.Godic@f7.n1040.z9.PARANET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David.Jacobs@paranet.PARANET.ORG (David.Jacobs) Subject: Abductions Date: 8 Feb 92 06:31:42 GMT Mike, abductees frequently report poltergeist or relaed activity that happens to them. When this has been reported to me and I have investigated it through hypnosis, the poltergeist activity invariably turns out to be abduction related events. For example, one man with whom I had worked for over a year reported a strange expereince in his kitchen. He was making rice in an electric rice maker and instead of it being done in the normal half-hour, it only took two minutes. His "take" on the subject was that it was "them" either sending him a "message" or playing a "joke" on him, or it was a sort of miraculous situation, which in his world view, was just as possible. We did a session on the rice incident and what had happened was that he was in his kitchen making rice, an abduction occurred, and he was returned an hour later. He had completely forgotten about the abduction, collapsed the two ends of it and "voila" the rice was cooked in two minutes. With abductees I have yet to see strange episodes not related in some way to the abduction phenomenon. You also ask about the abduction video. I have not seen the video nor was I consulted about it so I have no idea what is in it. The question of torture is a difficult one. It depends on what you mean by that term. If you mean the deliberate and malicious infliction of bodily and/or mental pain upon someone to elicit information of some kind, then the answer is no, it is not part of the abduction scenario. If you mean the deliberate, but not malicious, infliction of pain for purposes that are obviously fulfilling some sort of physiological or mental agenda, then they answer is yes, that does occur from time to time. If you mean that the abductees consider their situations to be torturous--that is to say unendurable because of the trauma inflicted by the entire predicament that they find themselves in, then the answer is definitely yes. Mike you might also want to check out some of my previous messages regarding the reliability of hypnosis and consciously recalled memories. It is very common for people to "recall" events that did not happen. It might be because that is the way they chose to interpret the events, it might be because they have mixed up dream material in the events, or it might be because specific and detailed images have been placed in their minds which is remembered as "reality." The more you get into abduction research, the more you realize how complicated and subtle it is. Hope you liked Budd's presentation. I assume that he laid to rest the idea that he wrote what the World Weekly News said he wrote. Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1 -- David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: David.Jacobs@paranet.PARANET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sue.Widemark@f37.n114.z1.PARANET.ORG (Sue Widemark) Subject: Your Wildcat! Date: 8 Feb 92 22:45:00 GMT > I Agreed! There are other places to discuss that matter. I >too have a a Wildcat! board with a large religious discussion area. >You too, of course, >are more than welcome to call and join in conversation. Gif me the number and I will gladly call! {Sue} {Cheese Whiz Wildcat! BBS 602-279-0793 <300/1200/2400} -- Sue Widemark - via ParaNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Sue.Widemark@f37.n114.z1.PARANET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sheldon.Wernikoff@p0.f605.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Sheldon Wernikoff) Subject: Abduction Research Date: 10 Feb 92 00:51:01 GMT In a message to Sheldon Wernikoff <05-Feb-92 00:49> David Jacobs wrote: DJ> Yes, it is possible that those people who are abducted and who DJ> are alone and who are not seen by others might in some way DJ> still be physically in place during the abduction. This is DJ> something that we cannot be sure of. When you state "might in some way still be physically in place during the abduction", what exactly do you mean by "some way"? You seem to be implying that perhaps the abductee is simultaneously in more than one locale. Am I interpreting this accurately? Also, through your observations, what are the approximate percentages of abductions that ARE witnessed by non-participants vs. those that are singular, unobserved events? DJ> All the evidence that we have points to the fact that people DJ> are not physically in place during an abduction and none of the DJ> evidence we have points to their being in place (the Puddy case DJ> not withstanding--see my remarks to Keith Basterfield). I shall have to read of this evidence in your new book, and hopefully, be convinced of its validity. I always thought that a great many cases could not really be proven either way, due to a lack of witnesses. DJ> The only thing that I can say to that is that in my research DJ> and in Budd Hopkins', the idea that abductions are internally DJ> generated has been carefully considered and rejected as not DJ> fitting the evidence as we have found it in our studies. John DJ> Mack, a professor of psychiatry at Harvard University, shares DJ> our views and is at a loss to explain how these accounts could DJ> possibly be internally generated given the knowledge that we DJ> have about the human mind and about the abduction phenomenon. I understand and agree to a limited extent. For example, PTSD seems to be generated *only* through an external event, and many, but not all abductees appear to be suffering from it. We must all remain open to the possibility that abductions are occurring on at least two levels. One being capable of explanation though more mundane psychological methods, the second being resistant to our attack with conventional approaches. The latter is of course the crux of this conference, but the former is really of no less significance. If I am interpreting you correctly, virtually every abductee that has made themselves available to you, Hopkins, et al, has shown no sign of psychological deviation from traditionally accepted values, that could possibly account for their abduction experience. If true, that exceedingly high degree of "normality" amongst your sampling would in itself make that population segment "abnormal", since a certain degree of statistical deviation would be anticipated. DJ> The problem here is that the abduction phenomenon itself DJ> constitutes a form of physical, emotional, and sexual abuse. DJ> How does one differentiate this type of abuse from the more DJ> common variety? Good point... and an even better question. Obviously, we have only begun to scratch the surface of this mystery. A great deal more contemplation of the observed data, and continued serious, ongoing investigation is necessary to fully assess what we are confronted with. Again David, I look forward to reading _Secret Life_, which I understand will be on the shelf in Chicago by the end of this week. Hopefully, your undertaking will prompt other professionals to enter into the abduction realm, advancing our knowledge and understanding of this most bewildering event. Take care, Sheldon -- Sheldon Wernikoff - via ParaNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Sheldon.Wernikoff@p0.f605.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG ******************************************************************************** For permission to reproduce or redistribute this digest, contact: DOMAIN Michael.Corbin@paranet.org UUCP scicom!paranet.org!Michael.Corbin ****************A**B**D**U**C**T**I**O**N****D**I**G**E**S**T******************* Submissions UUCP {ncar,isis,csn}!scicom!abduct Submissions DOMAIN abduct@scicom.alphacdc.com Admin Address abduct-request@shemtaia.weeg.uiowa.edu Mail to private Paranet/Fidonet addresses from the newsletters: DOMAIN firstname.lastname@paranet.org UUCP scicom!paranet.org!firstname.lastname ****************A**B**D**U**C**T**I**O**N****D**I**G**E**S**T*******************