Info-ParaNet Newsletters Volume I Number 475 Monday, September 16th 1991 Today's Topics: Re: crop circle hoax: a hoax in itself? Re: UFO Conference in Orlando Re: UFO Conference in Orl September 18th 'Unsolved Mysteries' Hudson Valley UFO circles again meteors and auroras Re : How old are the 'greys'? Re: HUDSON VALLEY TAPE PRESS RELEASE Paranet Headquarters? Re: Hudson Valley Tape Re: Mutilations Circles Again Re: Leslie Watkins/alternative Iii HVUFO Round 3 HVUFO Round 3 [1/3] HVUFO Round 3 [2/3] HVUFO Round 3 [3/3] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda.Bird@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Linda Bird) Subject: Re: crop circle hoax: a hoax in itself? Date: 12 Sep 91 05:37:00 GMT Hi Jim, You asked "what other bothersome individual, loosely connected with the UFO phenomenon does this remind you of?" Ed Walters? Whatcha say? Linda -- Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Linda.Bird@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda.Bird@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Linda Bird) Subject: Re: UFO Conference in Orlando Date: 12 Sep 91 05:38:00 GMT Hi John, See what I added to Jim Speiser's remarks about the "BeckleyCon." <:-) Linda -- Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Linda.Bird@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda.Bird@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Linda Bird) Subject: Re: UFO Conference in Orl Date: 12 Sep 91 05:41:00 GMT Hi Tyson, See my response to Jim Speiser about Sunday's "BeckleyCon" that I went to. Thanks! <:-) Linda -- Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Linda.Bird@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: vanth!jms Subject: September 18th 'Unsolved Mysteries' Date: 12 Sep 91 13:32:05 GMT From: vanth!jms@amix.commodore.com (Jim Shaffer) The season premier of NBC's 'Unsolved Mysteries' is next Wednesday, September 18th, and there will be a segment on the Bentwaters/Rendlesham case. -- * From the disk of: |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | for a limited time. 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, 'Dreamline') -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: vanth!jms Subject: Hudson Valley UFO Date: 12 Sep 91 13:32:19 GMT From: vanth!jms@amix.commodore.com (Jim Shaffer) To: John Hicks + Interesting. You do know that Phil I. tracked some ultralights to a small +airstrip, right? I have a file from him here somewhere, if you want it. It's +about a year or so old, but might have a bearing. You mean the same file I have, where he tracked them to some sort of military base with a secret area that he couldn't determine the function of? Not to mention the cattle the FDA kept there? -- * From the disk of: |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | for a limited time. 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, 'Dreamline') -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: vanth!jms Subject: circles again Date: 12 Sep 91 13:32:32 GMT From: vanth!jms@amix.commodore.com (Jim Shaffer) There was an AP article today about a man in North Carolina who says that while he believes the British circles with all the fancy designs are a hoax, he has some plain circles that he thinks were really caused by wind or something. A terribly boring and obvious article, except for a couple of odd paragraphs at the end: In North Dakota, Sharon Wagner says a series of mysterious circles that showed up in a hay field on her family's farm north of Bismarck three years ago are still plainly visible. 'We don't have any real explanation for it one way or another,' she said. (Quoted without permission for research purposes only.) -- * From the disk of: |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | for a limited time. 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, 'Dreamline') -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: vanth!jms Subject: meteors and auroras Date: 12 Sep 91 13:32:46 GMT From: vanth!jms@amix.commodore.com (Jim Shaffer) +From: James Roger Black + +For a long time people have claimed they could 'hear' meteors streaking +across the sky, describing the sound as a hissing or crackling 'like bacon +frying'. Such claims were dismissed by orthodox science as obviously +absurd, since the objects in question were much too far away (typically +tens of miles or more). Turns out that, in fact, what people were hearing +was not the actual sound of meteors screaming through the air but rather +the electromagnetic disturbance they create, which was operating directly +on the observers' nervous system. (I believe this was discussed several +months ago in Science News, but I don't have the reference anymore.) I remember seeing this discussed somewhere also. I heard a meteor about ten years ago, but I don't remember what I thought about it then. There was an article about auroras in The Old Farmer's Almanac a few years ago. It said that some people who live in the far north claim that auroras make noise. I figure it's probably a similar mechanism to that of the meteors. What really caught my eye about the article was not that, but an Eskimo legend that the aurora would sometimes descend to earth and carry someone away, never to be seen again! -- * From the disk of: |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | for a limited time. 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, 'Dreamline') -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cwns2.INS.CWRU.Edu!al463 Subject: Re : How old are the 'greys'? Date: 13 Sep 91 03:35:20 GMT From: al463@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Christopher A. Joseph) Linda Bird, In a message to me, you write: +Subject: Re: How old are the 'greys'? +Date: 2 Sep 91 22:52:00 GMT + +Hi Chris, + +Would you please send me a copy of one-two pages of that comic book you +have showing the 'gray alien?' I'll be happy to send $ome ca$h to +defray the postage and copy cost. Can you give me an address, or do +you want mine first? + +Thanks, and best regards, + +Linda Don't worry about the $. I'll do the copying at work and stamps don't cost that much, anyway. If you want, I could scan a picture of one of the aliens, save it as a .GIF, compress it, UUENCODE it, and e-mail it to you (whew :-), as well as mail you the xeroxes. This is the first time I have posted a message to the newsletter after having read it for about 4 months. I have always been interested in UFOlogy, this is my first chance to participate. Nice to meet you, Chris Joseph 3213 Clague Rd. North Olmsted, OH. 44070 (I sent this to your fido/Internet address last week. Apparently it didn't get there. Sorry.) Chris -- Christopher A. Joseph (Chris)|'You can go wrong by being too skeptical al463@cleveland.freenet.edu |as readily as by being too trusting'L.L. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- '!ELUR sebboH dna nivlaC' << Subliminal Message | FNORD!| Praise "Bob" -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael.Schuyler@f201.n350.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Schuyler) Subject: Re: HUDSON VALLEY TAPE Date: 11 Sep 91 05:25:00 GMT In a message to Jim Speiser <09-05-91 22:39> Pete Porro wrote: PP> PP> OK maybe they can tell something in the daylight, I don't PP> for telling a 182 from a 152 against a similar sky, under PP> same conditions. I'd like to see them do it. I hope this PP> challenge flys... (BTW what's a 182?) A 182 is a "big" 152, i.e.: same style with wings over. It's hefty and often used in skydiving. Another typical use is as a seaplane. The 182 has been around a long time. -- Michael Schuyler - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Schuyler@f201.n350.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Don.Ecker@p0.f3.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Don Ecker) Subject: PRESS RELEASE Date: 12 Sep 91 14:30:00 GMT The following press release was sent by UFO Magazine to AP, UPI, CNN, and several more of the large news agencies. ************************************************************************** PRESS RELEASE Sept. 11, 1991 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Don Ecker (818) 951-1250 Two Britons, Dave Chorley and Doug Bower, just claimed to the world that they hoaxed the strange phenomenon called "crop circles," inexplicable and often elaborate shapes laid out with near-perfect precision in the wheat and rye fields of southern England. ALL circles a hoax? Absolute nonsense, counter the responsible, serious students of the phenomenon, who have been quick to point out the fallacies of the two men's claim. "It would be impossible for any human to make some of the more complex circles, which show drastic depressions in the fields without damaging crop stalks whatsoever," comments Vicki Cooper, editor and co-publisher of UFO Magazine, a bi-monthly publication out of California. "An excess of 1,000 circles appeared in 1990 alone," Cooper says. "If you take a 3-month period and divide it by the 1000-plus circles, that would come out to approximately 12 circles a night-- impossible! Many have appeared in other countries, too. Now that's quite a trick!" The current issue of UFO is specially themed around the crop circle enigma. Chorley and Bower appeared to have pulled the plug on the mystery when they "confessed" to having made the circles by pulling flat planks across the crop fields. "If anyone looks closely at the evidence and then pauses to think for a moment, they'd realize just how ludicrous these claims are," says Cooper. So far the circles continue to defy explanation, say the experts, though some have pointed to UFOs. Why would anyone make such an incredible hoax claim? "It could be disinformation, it could be a huge joke," Cooper comments. "We see that sort of thing all the time in the UFO field." -30- END OF PRESS RELEASE -- Don Ecker - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Don.Ecker@p0.f3.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Damien.Barkan@f27.n125.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Damien Barkan) Subject: Paranet Headquarters? Date: 11 Sep 91 03:21:52 GMT Can someone give the the phone number of the Paranet headquarters node (Michael Corbin?)? I haven't been able to locate any still-existing Paranet nodes from the list I obtained from my local node. Thanks -- Damien Barkan - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Damien.Barkan@f27.n125.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael.Schuyler@f201.n350.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Schuyler) Subject: Re: Hudson Valley Tape Date: 13 Sep 91 16:52:00 GMT In a message to Jim Delton <09-08-91 13:57> John Hicks wrote: JH> right mind would JH> > be running at night in formation and turn on WHITE JH> BRIGHT cockpit JH> > lights???? JH> JH> Now that you mention it, I've never seen an illuminated JH> airplane cockpit, and I live right under approaches for two JH> airports. That would be a really stupid thing to do unless you were rated for IFR. If you turn on the lights inside the cockpit, you can't see outside. -- Michael Schuyler - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Schuyler@f201.n350.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Subject: Re: Mutilations Date: 7 Sep 91 14:17:00 GMT * Forwarded from "Alt.Alien.Visitors" * Originally from Jeff Later * Originally dated 09-06-91 17:58 From: jeffl@servprod.inel.gov (Jeff Later) Date: 6 Sep 91 16:05:54 GMT Organization: WINCO Message-ID: <1991Sep06.160554.3040@pmafire.inel.gov> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors In article davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) writes: >I recently spent some time with Linda Moutlen-Howe, who is the >public world's leading authority on cattle mutilations. >While I spoke with Linda, a FedEx pouch came in with close-up >photographs of the latest mutilations in Virginia, which had >happened 10 days before. It is continuing .... Here's another "Fedex pouch" for you: This was in last night's,(9/5/91), Idaho Falls, Idaho newspaper: "Donnelly Valley County authorities are puzzled by the bizarre death of a horse found mutilated in a pasture near Donnelly. The 14- year old mare was found last Friday lying on its side. All of its blood had been drained. The animal's neck and lips had been cut cleanly. No drops of blood or tracks were found around the carcass and there were no signs of gunshot wounds......." "The incident is the latest in a series of animal mutilations in Idaho, across the country and in other parts of the world, said Linda Moulton Howe, a former Boise resident, who has investigated the subject for 11 years......." _____________________________________________________________________________ ||++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++|++++++++++++++++++++++++++|| ||Jeff B. Later WB7TZA (jeffl@pmafire.inel.gov) | "I have become || ||**"Disclaimer, Disclaimer, where's my lawyer!** | comfortably numb" || || | Pink Floyd || +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Subject: Circles Again Date: 14 Sep 91 14:48:00 GMT * Forwarded from "Alt.Alien.Visitors" * Originally from Jim Shaffer * Originally dated 09-12-91 12:06 From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Date: 12 Sep 91 03:36:20 GMT Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Message-ID: Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors There was an AP article today about a man in North Carolina who says that while he believes the British circles with all the fancy designs are a hoax, he has some plain circles that he thinks were really caused by wind or something. A terribly boring and obvious article, except for a couple of odd paragraphs at the end: In North Dakota, Sharon Wagner says a series of mysterious circles that showed up in a hay field on her family's farm north of Bismarck three years ago are still plainly visible. "We don't have any real explanation for it one way or another," she said. (Quoted without permission for research purposes only.) -- * From the disk of: |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | for a limited time. 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peggy.Noonan@p0.f150.n30163.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Peggy Noonan) Subject: Re: Leslie Watkins/alternative Iii Date: 14 Sep 91 16:55:00 GMT Hi Jim, Did you ever get the reply I posted to your message to me about the file you had on Alternative III? I phoned your BBS # and got no answer several times, and once a voice reply (I had already hit the hangup button before I realized I could've spoken to the girl, sorry!) I also was VERY interested in what you were going to say about the Ogden objects and have been hoping to hear from you on that. If you didn't get my messages, maybe I should try another way... Peggy -- Peggy Noonan - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Peggy.Noonan@p0.f150.n30163.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim.Speiser@f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Jim Speiser) Subject: HVUFO Round 3 Date: 14 Sep 91 21:00:00 GMT Re: Following messages Methinks I've got this Maury guy on the ropes. Any comments before I finish him off? I haven't had this much fun since I threw Cooper off of ........ Jim -- Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Speiser@f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim.Speiser@f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Jim Speiser) Subject: HVUFO Round 3 [1/3] Date: 14 Sep 91 21:30:00 GMT Round 3 part 1 Cross-posted from SCIENCE (19763) Thu 12 Sep 91 10:42a By: Maury Markowitz To: Jim Speiser Re: Re: UFO Tape St: Rcvd ---------------------------------------------------------------------- @EID:43e5 172c5551 @MSGID: 1:250/712 28cf8aea JS> I still like you, Maury, and I'm very glad you made it public. You'll JS> see why in a moment. Good to hear. JS> All of which says that some pilots were very interested in the UFOs. JS> Maury, ALL the pilot activity you mention above took place AFTER the JS> initial spate of object sightings, at least as far as we know. From what I understand, the sighting of the object that the police officer chased (that turned out to be planes) happened near the very beginning of the events. JS> This is absolute nonsense. I am assured by several people that there JS> is JS> no way to make a positive identification of an airplane type based on JS> a JS> formation of singular white lights on a black background. Perhaps I mistated the case. When all of this started, all you did was ask me to take the tape to professional pilots and see if they thought that the object could be planes... this I did and they agreed. Somewhere in the conversation, I pointed to the lights and said something to the effect, "See the lights like that, it looks like NBW!" [a 182 that I jump from] and one of the guys... "No, it looks more like a 152, because they have the small windows behind the cockpit that would cause the second light" So, this is not by any means a "positive identification"{, and at no point did I EVER state that it was. You asked me to take it to pilots (all the pilots at the club are Commertial Pilots, with full ratings, multi-engine, IFR etc, one is an air-ambulance pilot) which I did, they said that it could be planes. PERIOD. JS> challenge you to prove your claim. A simple scientific test of your JS> powers of aircraft identification is, at this moment, being devised by JS> some of my comrades on ParaNet. We're itching to administer it to you. JS> Are you game? Perhaps you cannot read. I stated "probibly" etc in the letter to you. I have no such claims to aircraft identification, and do not feel that I could pass your test at all. I said "hmmm, they look like 182 's to me", they said "nope, looks more like 152's". If anything, I have said nothing except that my powere of nightime aircraft identification are NOT very good! I KNEW I was getting myself in over my head when you first wrote to me, I even said that on the net several time. Jim, I have little or no interest in this subject. My personaly feelings asside, I'd rather not be deluged by materials from ParaNet, and don't want to put in more than the couple of hours I've spent so far on it. This whole thing started when I stated that I had read the Discover article that seemed to make it look silly to the extreme. Your response was the challenge. Now you want another challenge? When will it end? cont... -- Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Speiser@f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim.Speiser@f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Jim Speiser) Subject: HVUFO Round 3 [2/3] Date: 14 Sep 91 21:32:00 GMT Round 3 Part 2 Cross posted from SCIENCE ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (19764) Thu 12 Sep 91 10:54a By: Maury Markowitz To: Jim Speiser Re: Re: UFO Tape St: Rcvd ---------------------------------------------------------------------- @EID:43e5 172c56d0 @MSGID: 1:250/712 28cf8db8 JS> Excuse me, but how do YOU interpret Prof. Hibbs' admittedly JS> obfuscatory JS> statement? If he DID have a reason to give an explanation, don't you JS> think he would have given one? He is a member of CSICOP, after all, Admittedly obfuscatory statement? Where in the statement did he admit to being obfuscatory? I didn't see anything like that. All I have is what you sent me Jim, if you're going to pull other statements out of the air, you'll have to at least tell me where they are coming from. The person on the tape specifically stated that he had no proof one way or the other. Let me ask YOU this, have you talked to this person? Have you asked him his OPINION? His opinion is probibly MUCH different than what he stated, one way OR the other, I'll not say which. What I saw on the tape was a very well edited conversation, that made it sound like he had no idea, which he probibly doesn't. However, he also stated that he was NOT going to say that these were alien craft! Would you like me to call him or write to him? JS> think he would have given one? He is a member of CSICOP, after all, JS> and JS> CSICOP's primary mission is to try to explain paranormal claims in JS> fundamentally normal terms. Is it not therefore safe to assume that, I like them already. This is every scientist's aim in life, to explain the unexplainable. Who are these people, and what do they do? Is this the "oranization" that Randy has something to do with? Sorry, I'm not up on this group. JS> fundamentally normal terms. Is it not therefore safe to assume that, JS> since he had no reason to give one, he did not have one to give? And JS> if JS> a JPL scientist lacks an explanation for an anomaly, and no one else JS> of JS> comparable stature has one, DOES IT NOT THEREFORE REMAIN UNEXPLAINED? Did you ever see me state otherwise? The guy states that he cannot prove anything one way or the other, but that he's not going to say these are alien craft. That's all I'm going on Jim, I'm not going to bother reading anything more into it at all. Think what you wish of the statement, but until one of use actually goes out and asks him, it's all just speculation. JS> Another typical tactic of the debunker: the claimants are to blame for JS> the production values of any TV show that showcases their claim. This JS> one happened to be quite an excellent program, even by skeptics' And apparently of the "believer". This is exactly what you were trying to do to the JPL person in the last statement... "well, he's a CSICOP member, so OF COURSE...". Practice what you preach Jim. I didn't think it was an excellent program at all. In fact, I thought it was laughable. I'll bet that Arnold, Les and Dave would too. cont... -- Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Speiser@f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim.Speiser@f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Jim Speiser) Subject: HVUFO Round 3 [3/3] Date: 14 Sep 91 21:33:00 GMT Round 3 Part 3 Cross Posted from SCIENCE ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (19765) Thu 12 Sep 91 11:11a By: Maury Markowitz To: Jim Speiser Re: Re: UFO Tape St: Rcvd ---------------------------------------------------------------------- @EID:43e5 172c5978 @MSGID: 1:250/712 28cf91c4 JS> As for him being "sure these are NOT spacecraft," I envy him his JS> certitude. That's good. He's a professional, and you're not. I too admire him for being able to do this, he's lucky that he has the knowledge and tools required to make this kind of analysis, which WE DO NOT. JS> And now we come to the part where you might not like ME too much, JS> Maury. JS> Your unquestioning citation of Philip Klass' statements points up one JS> of JS> the basic problems with skepticism as it is practiced in some JS> quarters: As I have stated repeatedly throughout this thread, ALL I have on this subject is what YOU provided. If you wanted me to know something about this staement, you only have YOURSELF to blame for not providing it! JS> You see, Mr. Klass' statement was not just false, it was demonstrably, JS> palpably, undeniably false. It is so false as to hold no resemblance JS> for JS> the truth whatsoever. Not only did the sightings NOT stop, they did JS> not JS> even subside appreciably. (I say this with no small amount of JS> surprise: And had you provided me with this information, I would not be inclined to use it. However, ALL you provided was Klass's statement, and that's it. And here you are calling me out on the carpet for using information that you provide? JS> Let the record show that Maury Markowitz, and not Jim Speiser, said JS> the JS> "A" word first. 15 yards, Ridicule of a Straw Man Argument, First Down JS> Speiser. Oh, I'm sorry Jim. I guess it's not alright to make a joke about things and mention the "a" work. Well, do me a favour, enlighten and ignorant rube like me... what do YOU think these things are? Don't you DARE enev THINK about copping out on me Jim, I don't want to hear "unexplained" from you. My position has been all along that planes provided an explaination for the sightings, and I didn't think anything else I had seen required a different explaination. The tapes you provided only strengthed my OPINION, and nothing else. I have little interest in the subject, and my cursory examination of the materials YOU provided have given me nothing to make me change my mind. I FEEL that planes provide enough of an explaination that the remaining people who refuse to believe it do not represent a significant enough number. I got bizzare results all the time in my labs, they didn't mean anything either. So, I turn the tables on you Jim. If these are not planes, what are they? You have provied no evidence that they are anything else at all! NONE! NADA! ZIP! Maury -- Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Speiser@f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG ********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to******** 'infopara' at the following address: UUCP {ncar,isis,csn}!scicom!infopara DOMAIN infopara@scicom.alphacdc.com For administrative requests (subscriptions, back issues) send to: UUCP {ncar,isis,csn}!scicom!infopara-request DOMAIN infopara-request@scicom.alphacdc.com To obtain back issues by anonymous ftp, connect to: DOMAIN ftp.uiowa.edu (directory /archives/paranet) ******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************