Info-ParaNet Newsletters Volume I Number 581 Saturday, August 15th 1992 (C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service. All Rights Reserved. Today's Topics: Part 2 - Reply from the Phoenix Project Conclusion - Reply from the Phoenix Project Stanton Friedman Air&space article Re: The Nature Of Reality Re: Chinese Scientists Explore Ufo Mysteries Reply From Phoenix Project Reply From Phoenix Project Vallee newsletter Vallee Newsletter Stanton Friedman Conclusion - Reply from t ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Subject: Part 2 - Reply from the Phoenix Project Date: 11 Aug 92 04:04:02 GMT <<..Continued from previous message>> Tell us, Mr. Corbin, where did we go wrong? Armed with that information from trusted sources, was the Phoenix Project out of line in pricking the bubble of that illusion? You might also note that we referenced our investigation to commonly "accepted" reliable information from "so-called" serious UFO researchers. We sent in experienced investigators, not amateurs, to check out the alleged Dulce Base. Those people knew what to look for, how to look for it, how to get answers, and are not easily mislead. If you do not agree with our findings, get off your posterior, go to Dulce, and check it out for yourself. In fact, we invite anybody to do the same thing. We're sure you'll find exactly what we did -- absolutely nothing to support the information supposedly provided by "reliable" (?) sources. We are not inclined to accept your arm-chair analysis of what is or isn't there or the validity of our findings. However, if you do get off your posterior and go to Dulce, and find anything of significance that we missed, we'll be more than happy to alter our stance and publicly admit we really missed something. The important item is to reveal the truth concerning the Dulce illusion. You imply that you're good at asking questions -- how are you at answering them? We have a few questions. Would you mind sharing with all of us, everyone on the BBS's and the public, what hard evidence you have that, without question, supports the presence and validity of the Dulce Base. In all fairness, can that evidence stand further scrutiny and investigation? Is it so credible that you are absolutely certain that it is genuine? Are you absolutely certain that any such evidence, if it exists, really pertains to the location referred to as Dulce? Is it possible, if such evidence exists, that it pertains to some location other than Dulce but Dulce was how it was labeled? Are you willing to offer that evidence to other investigators and make it available for public scrutiny. If your answer to any of the foregoing questions is "negative" or "no," we rest our case. Unless you have irrefutable evidence to present, made available for public scrutiny and evaluation, which invalidates the findings of the Phoenix Project regarding Dulce, K-2, or the Ultimate Secret, or our future reports, back off. Either put-up or shut-up. In other words, get off our back. The Phoenix Project is now making the results of its investigations and the evidence it has obtained, public. Anyone seriously interested in revealing the truth is encouraged to check it out. In fact we want them to check it out for themselves. It won't take an intelligent person long to discover that we report exactly what we find. We're not playing games with serious researchers or the public. Since we do not have unlimited funding, or the time to continuously monitor the on-going aspects of every area we have investigated, we do the best we can under the circumstances. We actively encourage other serious investigators to use the information we have provided as a basis for conducting their own inquiry and to carry-on our effort. Can you, Mr. Corbin, or ParaNet, or Mufon, make the same claim. Or, is it true that the results of critical investigations are held sacred by the elite leadership of these organizations, and are not shared with the member's of their organizations or the public? In your message, you insinuate that because of our past military and intelligence backgrounds, our area of expertise so-to-speak, that the motives of the Phoenix Project are suspect. You further insinuate that we are possibly government operatives attempting to send serious researchers off on a variety of wild goose chases. If that were true, which it isn't, or original, which it isn't, we're certainly going about it in a novel way. We are not government operatives, and we are not passing along disinformation provided by any government agency. To our way of thinking that concept smacks of "guilt by association." Bye-the-way, have you ever heard the expression "when did you stop beating your wife?" If anyone needed assurance that the truth regarding UFO's will remain a deep, dark, secret -- they can rest secure in the knowledge that you, are on the job. There are any number of government agencies who would welcome you with open arms. Expect some offers. We are sure that the honest and sincere members of ParaNet and other UFO investigative organizations (and there are many) must be seriously considering whether your qualifications, fitness and investigative ability warrant your continuance in a position of leadership within what used to be a respected research organization. The Phoenix Project offered what amounted to new information regarding the subjects covered in the reports released. The "meat and potatoes - the main course. You chose to ignore that, and went for the desert. Instead of making an honest attempt to validate or disprove our findings regarding the subjects mentioned -- missing the point completely, you chose to become obsessed with determining the identity of Phoenix Project personnel. For what reason? Do you intend to judge the validity of the information based on the credentials of those providing it? Some people would interpret that as putting the cart before the horse. Explain to us how or why the credentials of our investigators, or their identity, have any bearing on the validity of the information. Either the information is true or it isn't. It's as simple as that, or does that simple fact escape you. Your obsession with establishing the identity of Phoenix Project personnel could lead us to believe that "you" have an ulterior motive. How can we, or others, be assured of your motives. One does not need a brilliant mind to envision a scenario where the information the Phoenix Project has released is discredited because of an act of character assignation. This is a ploy utilized by not only the government but others who wish to suppress information. It has been used over and over again, with great success. Anyone familiar with the history of the UFO cover-up knows of and could cite you a dozen examples. Suppose we asked these questions -- would you be prepared to respond to them? Who are you? What are your credentials? Who are those holding positions of leadership in ParaNet? What are their qualifications and credentials? How do we know that you or ParaNet are not controlled by government operatives? What qualifications are required to hold a position of leadership within ParaNet? Who receives the results of investigations conducted by ParaNet? Are the results always made public? Are your records open for public inspection? Do you ever conceal investigative results from your members or the public? Every coin has two sides. If you can ask questions and demand answers, we claim the same privilege. If you think we will back-down because of your insinuations and innuendoes, think again. Regarding your message, and some of the items you've uncovered, that are "striking coincidences." We found the following interesting: We were unaware that anyone had ever attempted to create a corporation in Nevada calling itself the Phoenix Project. Due to the nature of our work, and to protect the identity of our personnel it would be a foolish endeavor. We never made an attempt to incorporate our organization in any State. We do not know, nor have we ever heard of, or met, an individual by the name of Thomas C. Naylor. This interests us. You will let us know what you discover about him - won't you? You suggest a possible link between our organization and America West. Sorry about that, but you're dead wrong. It has come to us from several sources that we're not on their list of favorite people. We will take this opportunity to categorically deny that we have any affiliation with America West, their publication the "Phoenix Liberator," or any other publication they provide. The fact that one of our investigator's forgot his camera on a quick trip to K-2 seems to intrigue you and many others. There's an old saying "Nobody's Perfect." Since we've never made the claim of being perfect, its absurd to expect us to abide by that standard. We did have a choice of including or deleting it from our report. After all, if we hadn't mentioned it, he would certainly look better. After discussion, we left it in because it was the truth. It's a peccadillo we'll have to live with, sometimes the truth hurts, or haven't you noticed. -- Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Subject: Conclusion - Reply from the Phoenix Project Date: 11 Aug 92 04:05:03 GMT <<<..Continued from previous message>>> Do not expect us to respond to the other coincidences, suppositions, insinuations or innuendoes contained in your message. Since you brought up America West and The "Phoenix Liberator," why not turn your investigative abilities loose on their organization. Just suppose that Milton Cooper is, quietly, linked to their organization. That should intrigue you. Equally intriguing, is where their funding comes from - not the obvious subscription income - the covert funding. Or, how about the busy and numerous, off premise, writers that prepare the volumes of "Hatonn" material, and their use of high-speed modems to provide the copy for each weekly issue of the "Phoenix Liberator" and the dozens of books they produce. In our supposition, we're talking about a big-time operation. You might also check out their printing facilities, distribution centers, and world-wide circulation. Equally fascinating is their sudden rise, in a few short years, to the top of the New Age Movement. You might even think to ask yourself, why the New Age Movement? What possible connection is there with covert government UFO activities, or a New World Order, with the New Age Movement? The answer to that might be revealed, if you dig deep enough, and discover high-speed modem links between their headquarters and certain organizations located at Langley and Ft. Meade. Yes, if you really dig, you might uncover all kinds of interesting things about America West. However, since you don't take any information provided by the Phoenix Project seriously, this supposition will surely be labeled a fictional work. The product of over-worked imaginations and stressed-out investigators. Oh, well! As to your effort in trying to identify staff personnel of the Phoenix Project -- good luck. However, we do have to admit that you may get lucky and hit on a couple of them. However, since there are many, it is doubtful you will ever get beyond that point. It is not our intent nor will it become our objective to enter into an adversarial debate with either you or ParaNet, or any other individual or research organization. However, you started this debacle - we didn't. You implied our information was suspect and possibly false. Under the circumstances, we have every right to express our viewpoints on this issue. In our opinion, the public deserves the truth regarding the real story of UFO's, government involvement and the Alien threat. That should be our objective. It is up to "serious" researchers to really dig and reveal the facts and make them known. The Phoenix Project has dedicated its staff and resources, for over forty years, to that objective. Perhaps you'll agree that, that objective is more productive than entertaining the public via the BBS links with a side-show of petty squabbles and bickering between individuals and organizations. Signed, The Phoenix Project This response by the Phoenix Project to a recent message originating from Michael Corbin of ParaNet, will be posted on all available BBS's. @Redirected Via Node 1:104/422 : Mon, Aug 10, 1992 3:33pm -- Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John.Burke@f9.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG (John Burke) Subject: Stanton Friedman Date: 11 Aug 92 07:37:00 GMT Rick Pavek writes: > > It sounds like John Burke has a personal axe to grind. Is > that true John? Absolutely not. I've never met Stan. I just think he's wasted a lot of other people's time and money trying to defend his own "pet projects". What led you to believe that I had "a personal axe to grind"? My posting was limited strictly to his methodologies. His personality was never discussed, since I don't know him. When someone disagrees with another person's methodologies do you always assume that they just have a "personal axe to grind"? > One article does not necessarily make the world turn upside > down... What the hell does that mean? One good expose of shabby (euphamism) research and investigative techniques should enlighten the book-buying and FUFOR-contributing public about whether they're getting their money's worth. It should also raise the question (among publishers of UFO-related journals, etc.) of whether this guy deserves all the space he's getting. > I listened to Stanton in Portland last year and he quite > methodically went through the documents, their claims of > authenticity, their claims of forgery, and went on to > debunk the claims of forgery. Well, almost *three* years ago, I heard Bill Moore give a talk, during which he gave the audience some glimpses of what the study of the MJ-12 documents had revealed. You may or may not recall that Friedman got about $16,000 from FUFOR to have a document examiner study the MJ-12 documents (or should I say the *photographs* of these documents) to learn what could be learned about their authenticity. The picture painted by Moore about the outcome of this research wasn't nearly as "rosey" as the picture painted by Friedman. Moore's talk is available on audio and videotape from John White's Omega Communications (listed in UFO Magazine's classifieds). Has Friedman *ever* released the original document examiner's report, itself? As far as I know, he simply sold his own paper at the 1990 MUFONfest in which he *discussed* this study. Has it ever been made available in its entirety? Wouldn't this be a more objective authority on the authenticity of the MJ-12 documents than Stan's own "spin" on what this report contained? > +From what I hear, attacks on Stanton are the result of a > personal difference of opinion. Uh-huh. > I think everyone has a right to be heard and the bickering > like this only detracts from the field as a whole. This statement is a non-sequitur. I have a right to be heard without my observations' being mischaracterized as "bickering". Do you ever read the International UFO Reporter? Did you read the latest issue? Is that issue full of "bickering"? Do you object to public debates about the validity of various aspects of UFO research? I think that shabby research and investigative techniques (which can easily be exposed as such) detract from this field as a whole. That's why it is ignored by some of the world's best minds at a time when we need them most. > At least he doesn't 'channel' or do other dubious > performance art. Hey, what do you have against performance art? Do you have a personal axe to grind against Laurie Anderson? :-) -- John -- John Burke - via ParaNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: John.Burke@f9.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim.Speiser@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Jim Speiser) Subject: Air&space article Date: 11 Aug 92 04:12:00 GMT JP>Of course, this is patently absurd. There is no such thing as "close to JP>going off" - it was either armed or it wasn't. If it was armed then it JP>would have reduced the habitable acreage of our country by almost one JP>state and if it wasn't armed then it would have done no more damage than JP>that of an ordinary airplane crash in the desert. Except for, at least, JP>one small detail - the crash site would still be clearly and easily JP>detectable with a geiger counter, and it isn't. EXCELLENT point. Scratch one more prosaic theory. Jim * OLX 2.1 TD * Extraordinary Research Requires Extraordinary Funding -- Jim Speiser - via ParaNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Speiser@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Subject: Re: The Nature Of Reality Date: 11 Aug 92 04:45:01 GMT * Forwarded from "Alt.Alien.Visitors" * Originally from David R. Stepien * Originally dated 08-07-92 12:33 From: cc203@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (David R. Stepien) Date: 6 Aug 92 19:20:42 GMT Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA) Message-ID: <1992Aug6.192042.2994@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors I have been reading alt.alien.visitors for about two weeks now, and had been considering composing a posting when I came across the article on THE NATURE OF REALITY, and found a lot of the words had been taken right out of my mouth. For the past year I have been delving deeply into this subject. From the research I have done, I would highly recommend the following materials to anyone who is truly trying to understand it: Books: 1. Matrix II - see article 7932 for info 2. The Gulf Breeze Sightings - Ed Walters 3. UFO's - Above Top Secret - Timothy Goode 4. A Strange Harvest - Linda Moulton Howe (cattle mutilations, Gov't coverup) 5. Flying Saucers are Real - Maj Donald Keyhoe (Keyhoe resigned from Project Bluebook disgusted by what he saw to be an obvious coverup) Videos: 1. Crop Circle Communique - Linda Moulton Howe Productions Great aerial footage, compendium of threories, analysis, etc 2. A Strange Harvest - Linda Moulton Howe Productions 1983 documentary on cattle mutilations 3. Sightings - UFO's - originally broadcast on Fox Network Well done overview of entire subject - Includes interviews with Robert Lazar and George Knapp, an investigative reporter from Las Vegas. One thing I can say is that after studying these materials, attending UFO group meetings, and listening in person to abductee accounts, I find it impossible to dismiss the phenomenon. What makes this such a difficult area to clarify, however, is that the core truth is obscured from two sides. On one hand we have the Government/Air Force, who by concealing their own information and concocting lie after lie to feed to the public, have done an amazing job of deluding vast numbers of us into the comfortable conception that all UFO witnesses and contactees are lunatics. On the other side, the people who are trying to "cash in" on the phenomenon by building bogus ET cults and disseminating phoney stories and hoaxes, are no less guilty. When researching UFO's, one must always confront the question of "where does the truth stop and the slop begin?", because there's plenty of slop out there. The book Matrix II is a good example of this. Matrix II is a treasure trove of information, including newspaper clippings, historical reviews of the Roswell crash, Interviews, etc. Yet there is also what seems to be a good dose of nonsense thrown in - claims of huge underground tunnel networks under the U.S. populated by some subterranean intelligent species, claims that Bush and Gorbachev are robots, etc. Thus, even within a single book, one has to ask, where do you draw the line? All one has to do is read through alt.alien.visitors to find the same thing going on. One has to wade through all the stories of astral traveling with R2D2, personal attacks, and recipes for cooking greys to find the few really useful pieces of information. This forum has a great potential for sharing knowledge and coming to some kind of consensus on what is really going on, if people would only start treating it a little more seriously. So, for some serious discussion: 1. CATTLE MUTILATIONS One thing I haven't seen discussed here recently is cattle mutilations. A lot of the skeptics in this newsgroup constantly say there is no hard evidence, and in my view this is some of the hardest. It has been established that surgery is performed on these animals with a precision laser type intrument. Their rectums and sexual organs are usually removed, along with tounges, eyes, etc. The animals are found dead in a field with absolutely no tracks surrounding the bodies. There have been cases where the animal was seen alive only a few hours earlier. There have been eyewitness sightings of both unexplained lights and craft in the sky during nights preceeding the discoveries of the bodies, along with similar daylight sightings of saucer craft in the area. Two ranchers who staked out a feedlot where a rash of mutilations was occuring reported seeing two greys "float" into the feedlot in the middle of the night, at which point they left to get the local sherrif. When they returned the greys were gone, along with one of the cows. An abductee recalled under regression said that she had witnessed a calf being raised into a ship via a beam. The number of mutilation cases is now in the thousands, and they have been reported all over the world (someone in here asked why this in only occurring in the U.S. - it's not!). Over and over it is the same story. Of course there have been debunkers who point the finger at predators or cults, but these theories can not possibly explain the HARD EVIDENCE. Media coverage of mutilations peaked in the early eighties, but is now nearly non-existent, even though it is continuing to happen. 2. ABDUCTEE REGRESSION ACCOUNTS The following "explanations" have been proposed: a. Somehow, the hypnotist is planting the abduction memories. Response - Having seen videos of several actual sessions, and read transcripts of several more, I find it impossible to believe that this is the entire basis of the phenomenon. The detail that comes out of these people in response to a simple question, such as "what did they do to you", is incredible, consistent from case to case, and certainly beyond the imagination of many of them. They are not being fed this detail in any way whatsoever - common sense says it must be coming from elsewhere. I do however believe that an unprofessional hypnotists can plant or corrupt memories, and that this may be occurring, in a MINORITY of the cases. b. People are having mass hallucinations base on the movies "Close Encounters", "ET", etc. Come on! This is clearly a case of art imitating life, not vice versa. A great point someone made earlier is why don't people mass hallucinate "Alien" type creatures. Why not Freddy Krueger, or Superman for that matter? 3. CROP CIRCLES Cerologists, as they call themselves, are now fairly certain that they can distinguish "authentic" circles from hoaxes, of which there are plenty (Doug and Dave's are the most famous). The main feature is that the stalks of the crop are bent as if they were heated, and there is no cell damage! Circles have been found in "unbendable" plants. These plants would snap like celery if a human tried to bend them, but they were found bent at perfect 90 degree angles, again with no damage. Many of the formations have been found to contain within their designs precise mathematical ratios that correspond to the diatonic scale, and also contain proofs of various mathematical theorems (see cover story of Feb issue of Science News). Soil samples from circles contain trace radioactive isotopes not naturally found there. Again, lights and craft are commonly seen in the vicinity prior to circle discoveries. What do the skeptics say - "Oh it's weather, or it's people with boards and strings." Give me a break. 4. SIGHTINGS There have been so many sightings it would be impossible to catalog them. Many are by pilots, even astronomers. I highly recommend reading the book on the sightings at Gulf Breeze. FINALLY.....A WORD FROM THE "SANE".... So lets just close our eyes and try and think up an explanation for these things. Gee, what could it be? It can't be the obvious thing - ALIEN VISTORS - because we all KNOW that this just can't be. Our government tells us so, and most of us have personally never seen one, and nothing can possibly exist that we haven't personally seen. It must be that all these thousands of abductees, scientists, pilots and witnesses are crazy gullible boobs. Yeah, that's it! Thank God there's people like us, who know the absolute truth about everything, to set them straight. AND A WORD FROM THE REALLY SANE.... So lets just close our eyes and try and think up an explanation for these things. Gee, what could it be? It must be the obvious thing - ALIEN VISTORS - and they must be here to save the planet and the lady I met at the Psychic fair can talk to them and she says I am one of the ones who is going to get a spot on the ships when the world blows up in 1998, so I better send a bunch of money to this guy in France so he can build a building shaped like the craft that came and talked to him and now I understand that the Miller beer commercial is really an attempt by our Government to introduce us to them... AND A WORD FROM ME.... So lets just close our eyes and try and think up an explanation for these things. Gee, what could it be? It must be the obvious thing - ALIEN VISTORS - period. _________________________________________________________________ David Stepien Email : stepiend@rcwcl1.dnet.bp.com ----------------------------------------------------------------- -- Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jake,.Smith@p0.f26.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Jake, Smith) Subject: Re: Chinese Scientists Explore Ufo Mysteries Date: 11 Aug 92 21:06:00 GMT Hi! SOunds like their nearing the fine line of rEALITY. I must say though that your post was interesting. Only guy on this board to ever talk about foreign alein sightings in detail. I know because I've bbsing on the board since I logged on as 29th user. Hope the Chinese find something. End all the mysteries. Imaginge the changes in life if UFO's were officialy reconized. Religion, Education, Defence, politics would all be affected, for good or not I'm not sure? Write back and tell me what you think! -Jake Smith -- Jake, Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jake,.Smith@p0.f26.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Don.Sudduth@p0.f26.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Don Sudduth) Subject: Reply From Phoenix Project Date: 12 Aug 92 05:24:00 GMT > Congratulations Mr. Corbin. You've just won the > Golden Fleece > Award for outstanding ineptness in your investigation > of the > Phoenix Project. Your efforts thus far indicate a > degree of > amateur sleuthing more in line with that of a Cub > Reporter trying > to get a job on the staff of The Daily Sentinel. True > to form > (notable in many self-centered and Godly UFO > Organizations) and > lacking any real expertise, let alone concrete > evidence, your > message reveals what purports to be the results of > your > investigation into the Phoenix Project. The result: a > conclusion > based on quote - "coincidences that are striking and > suggestive." Oh, please..... I can't stop laughing! This Phoenix Project is outrageous! Sounds like junior high mentality! There is NO possible way these guys have any credibility now. Thankyou, Mike, for keeping a level head and opening our eyes!! Don -- Don Sudduth - via ParaNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Don.Sudduth@p0.f26.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John.Burke@f9.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG (John Burke) Subject: Reply From Phoenix Project Date: 12 Aug 92 07:44:00 GMT Don Sudduth writes: > Oh please..... I can't stop laughing! This Phoenix > Project is outrageous! Sounds like junior high > mentality! > > There is NO possible way these guys have any credibility > now. > > Thankyou, Mike, for keeping a level head and opening our > eyes!! Unfortunately, I think that there are probobly a lot of people who will read this who will be emotionally pre-disposed toward accepting it. The emotional tone of that message will "resonate" with their own feelings and they will yell at their computer: "Right ON, Jack!". These are the people who already feel hostility against Mike Corbin and ParaNet itself for helping to "spoil" such festivities as: Hatoonism, Ed Walters Arts & Crafts and Cooperphilia. Emotions play too big a role in UFOlogy. They often not only affect but sometimes *control* the way people perceive things, process data and form opinions. Too frequently, the person who is the best at manipulating the emotions of his audience, gets the best response. When many of us read Jack's rantings, we were reminded of the emotional response of George Green (Hatoon) to Don Ecker's expose of that guy in UFO magazine. Many UFO-related debates, including some on-line here, result in one person's need to impugn motives for the other person's point of view. Is it because some people are just incapable of discussing, facts, data and evidence? I think it's just because that at some point their emotions take over their entire thought process. To many of us, these people end up looking foolish. Nevertheless, IMHO, many people are *driven* to UFOlogy to satisfy an emotional *need*. When their source of emotional satisfaction is being challenged or "threatened" they lash back in an emotional manner. Other people of the same mind-set will relate to this. (It would be interesting to hear what a real psychologist would have to say about my observations here!) Anyway, I can't wait to see what turns up when the rocks are turned over and we find out who these other Phoenix Project guys are (which Jack said was likely) and what they've been involved in (as Jack's expressed dread about this emphasized). Whether John Lear's name comes up, or just more ties to America West, I'm sure that we can expect more emotional fireworks! -- John -- John Burke - via ParaNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: John.Burke@f9.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John.Hicks@f29.n363.z1.FIDONET.ORG (John Hicks) Subject: Vallee Date: 11 Aug 92 20:25:00 GMT I hear Jacques Vallee has divorced himself from organized ufology. Anyone know anything? jbh -- John Hicks - via ParaNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: John.Hicks@f29.n363.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John.Hicks@f29.n363.z1.FIDONET.ORG (John Hicks) Subject: newsletter Date: 11 Aug 92 20:33:01 GMT Terry Ecker, MUFON SSD in northeast central Florida, is publishing a newsletter that's a breath of fresh air.....the _UFOLOGIST_. In his latest issue, he published an account of a close encounter in west-central Florida that involved a policeman and a large bright green light, written by Fearon Hicks; published two articles by Bruce Maccabee who attempts to refute William Hyzer's finding of fakery in Ed Walters' photo #19 (Terry had previously published material from Rex Salisberry); and got into a big fight with Florida MUFON State Director Charles Flannigan over the Salisberrys, red lights etc. In short, a very worthwhile read that certainly doesn't follow the "party line." Highly recommended. The _Ufologist_ is published monthly; subscriptions are $15 Terrell Ecker 706 River St. Palatka, FL 32177 jbh -- John Hicks - via ParaNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: John.Hicks@f29.n363.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Subject: Vallee Date: 13 Aug 92 00:48:01 GMT > I hear Jacques Vallee has divorced himself from organized ufology. > Anyone know anything? It is true. Jacques has had it with the organized brand of UFOlogy, not naming any names, but he is continuing his own private research into the phenomenon. Is it really any wonder that a person such as Vallee, with some original thought and pretty interesting theories should catch such crap from the "control factions" that he speaks of? No. I commend him on his fortitude, persistence and tremendous insight. Actually, we should celebrate! Mike -- Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Anson.Kennedy@p0.f25.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Anson Kennedy) Subject: Newsletter Date: 13 Aug 92 02:37:00 GMT > Terry Ecker, MUFON SSD in northeast central Florida, > is publishing a newsletter that's a breath of fresh > air.....the _UFOLOGIST_. [Excellent summary of latest issue deleted] > In short, a very worthwhile read that certainly > doesn't follow the "party line." Highly recommended. > The _Ufologist_ is published monthly; subscriptions > are $15 I second that recommendation. I requested one sample issue (Vol. 1 No. 1) and have received three. My check is in the mail. --- Anson -- Anson Kennedy - via ParaNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Anson.Kennedy@p0.f25.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim.Speiser@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Jim Speiser) Subject: Stanton Friedman Date: 12 Aug 92 13:56:00 GMT NC>It sounds like John Burke has a personal axe to grind. Is that true NC>John? John's axe may be personal (though I highly doubt it), but mine is not. I know and _like_ Stan Friedman, and acknowledge his many contributions to the field. But I have to agree that his research methodologies and presentation strategies have taken a large turn for the shoddy. NC>I listened to Stanton in Portland last year and he quite methodically NC>went through the documents, their claims of authenticity, their claims of NC>forgery, and went on to debunk the claims of forgery. But did he do so _convincingly_, or did his analysis include such off-the-wall convolutions as, "How do you know they didn't invent a new Executive Order numbering system for this one document?"? NC>+From what I hear, attacks on Stanton are the result of a personal difference NC>of opinion. Instead of relying on what you hear, why don't you read the cited articles and judge for yourself? That's the good thing about this particular dispute: both sides are hanging out their linens for examination in public. We need not rely on hearsay or anonymous sources. NC>I think everyone has a right to be heard and the bickering like this NC>only detracts from the field as a whole. I disagree. When it occurs strictly over data and its interpretation and not over personalities, such "bickering" as you call it is quite healthy. It lays all the cards out on the table and lets us decide strictly on the merits of the case. As to John's editorial, that's what ParaNet is for. You certainly seem to have no problem castigating channelers, why deny John the opportunity to call it the way he sees it? Jim * OLX 2.1 TD * "I'll be Bach!" -- Johann Sebastian Schwarzenegger -- Jim Speiser - via ParaNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Speiser@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim.Speiser@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Jim Speiser) Subject: Conclusion - Reply from t Date: 12 Aug 92 13:56:00 GMT Mike: In his ramblings, Mathias does bring up one issue that needs to be addressed: just what IS ParaNet's information/position on Dulce? The report seems to imply that we have some kind of evidence of a base there, or was that just some unfortunate wording? Jim * OLX 2.1 TD * A ParaNet Point System - Excellence in Ufology since 1986 -- Jim Speiser - via ParaNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Speiser@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG ******************************************************************************* Submissions infopara@scicom.alphacdc.com Administrative requests infopara-request@scicom.alphacdc.com FTP archive grind.isca.uiowa.edu:/info/paranet/infopara Permission to distribute Michael.Corbin@paranet.org Private mail to Paranet/Fidonet users firstname.lastname@paranet.org UUCP gateway {ncar,isis,csn}!scicom *********************End**of**the**InfoPara**Newsletter************************