----------------------------------------------------------------------- Texas MUFON Newsletter Volume 1 # 1November 15, 1992 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The Texas MUFON Newsletter is a publication of the Texas State MUFON Organization. Contents, except where otherwise noted, are copyright 1992, Texas MUFON. Ellen Stuart ................................................. Publisher Paul Arden Lidberg ..................................... Editing, Layout Contributions by Doris Upchurch, Paul Arden Lidberg, S. Miles Lewis, and other Austin Mufon folks. This publication has been professionally typeset by Paul Arden Lidberg at Team Frog Studios. For information, or a quote on services, call 512/458-8553. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Name That Newsletter! In this, the first issue of Texas' MUFON newsletter, we invite you our readers to submit what you think would be an appropriate name for this publication. All suggestions should be sent to: Ellen Stuart 8103 Richard King Court Austin, Texas 78749 along with your name and address. The winning selection will receive the book _Crop Circles -- Harhingers of World Change_, Edited by Alick Bartholomew. Suggestions must be received in time for publication of the second issue (February 6, 1993). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCLAIMER Information that appears in this Newsletter that is of a controversial nature should not be taken at face value. Instead, we encourage you to research these things on your own, and make your own decision. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- NASA HEDGES ON CYDONIA PHOTOS Richard C. Hoagland reports that re-photographing the monuments of Mars by the recently launched Mars Observer is encountering heavy resistance from NASA Headquarters, and from the planetary scientists at the Jet Propulsion Lab, who control the mission. In an extraordinary epilogue to his new edition of The Monuments of Mars, Hoagland details the behind-the-scenes efforts of NASA officialdom to prevent any specific discussion or actual tests that might publicly verify his Intelligence Hypothesis. This hypothesis being that certain monumental structures found on the northern desert plain of Cydonia on Mars, which were photographed by the Viking Orbiter in 1976, are artificially contrived and project an intelligent message from what appears to be a non- terrestrial source. Hoagland suggests that other, more profound special interests, are attempting to eliminate not only public discussion of the subject but the actual verification (during the Mars Observer mission) of eight years of fruitful yet painstaking investigative work by a distinguished team of scientists and engineers. While NASA did yield to public pressure and lobbying by announcing on September 25, 1992 that the artifacts at Cydonia would be photographed, the announcement itself betrayed the begrudging attitude of NASA officialdom to the scientific work done by Hoagland and his team. Re- photographing Cydonia was characterized as a "little waste of time" by Dr. Michael Malin, the principal investigator who also controls the camera. Malin and NASA refuse to guarantee the best possible pictures of the artifacts area (citing the need to conserve the spacecraft's precious fuel), and is not planning to accommodate the request for live transmission of the pictures (citing the expense). No timetable has been set. Rather, Malin expects by the end of the Mars [Observer]'s two year mission to have had at least a few opportunities to photograph the alleged city, the supposed face and the reputed pyramids. From the resistance Hoagland has already experienced from the highest levels of NASA, Cydonia enthusiasts should not expect much based upon this luke warm commitment. Most images of the Mars Observer mission will be low-resolution images for studies of climate, with medium and high resolution images of selected areas to study surface geology and interactions between the surface and the atmosphere. Thus, NASA could technically fulfill the stated commitment by releasing low resolution shots of Cydonia taken from an oblique angle. If so, the Intelligence Hypothesis will remain unresolved. Hoagland believes that public input is critically important to compel NASA to take high resolution photographs of the Cydonia region and to broadcast these images live back to the Earth. Mufon members can participate in the research and lobbying effort through: The Mars Mission, c/o The Society for the Study of Native Arts and Sciences, 2800 Woolsey Street, Berkeley, CA 94705. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- GETTING IT TOGETHER IN CORPUS CHRISTI by Doris Upchurch As Ernest Scott and I left the Austin State Section Directors meeting and headed back to Corpus Christi, there was a definite excitement in the air. We discussed some of the things we heard, and came up with ideas of our own. By the time we reached Corpus Christi, just after 8:00 p.m., we already had several ideas and projects in mind for restructuring our local organization. After appearing on an hour-long program for public access television, I got home about 10:30 p.m., fairly popping with ideas. My daughter and I stayed up talking (I talked, she listened) until after midnight. The next ten days were busy ones for me. I called Ellen several times asking for help here and there. I sent out re-introduction letters to area media and emergency agencies, and did an interview for the local paper as a result. One of our members, Stephanie Foster, has written new programs for our computer, which I have started using. With help from my daughter Larraine, I wrote organizational guidelines for the new and improved Corpus Christi Mufon. I asked for and received written permission from the Bigalowe (sic) Corporation to reprint their questions from "Unusual Personal Experiences." I wrote up a few local sightings to use as hand- outs during public meetings, as well as an information sheet on Corpus Christi Mufon, which also contains an application for membership. Larraine and I have made several book-buying trips, looking for new and used books to have available for sale during UFO Information Week. We also looked for old UFO magazines but had no luck. All of our members are now looking for old books, magazines and other printed materials. Of course, anything that is found that is not in our library is being confiscated. I contacted (by mail) everyone who had ever been a member or very interested party in Mufon and invited them all to attend our October meeting. Qf those not attending, most did call and requested the organizational g udelines and seemed excited that we were reorganizing. Several things were voted on and accepted by the attending members. The guidelines were accepted as the basis of our organization, due were voted into existence, and our first public meeting ----------------------------------------------------------------------- FROM OUR CENTRAL REGIONAL DIRECTOR - GEORGE COYNE Newsletter dated October 21, 1992 On August 9, 1992, I had a heart attack. Then on August 17, I had the second attack and went into heart failure. Since our Flint [Michigan] Osteopathic Hospital does not do heart cath's or heart surgery, I was transferred to Saint Joseph Hospital on the east side of Flint. The heart cath was performed on August 24, and I had triple by-pass surgery on August 28, 1992. If I even look at a lawn mower or rake, Shirley is on my back (grin). My duties relative to sighting reports has been almost nothing since no reports have been forwarded to me these past months. Just last week I got two reports from Oklahoma. Jean Waller and Richard Siefried are doing a wonderful job in Oklahoma. One sure way to get cases is for the police agencies to be aware of the service we offer them. They must know we are there just waiting for sighting reports. You must send letters to the police agencies yearly so that their first action on getting a UFO report is to dial your telephone number and let you put some investigators on the case. They can't call if they don't know we are out there. I encourage you to notify the agencies so they can give you sighting information. We need to make every effort to reach the public so they can be aware that we are looking for people who are genuinely interested in becoming investigators. There are many people who want to become active in one of the more interesting aspects--the reality of the UFO's existence and their interest in contacting us by one method or another. I also encourage you to write letters to editors, speak before organizations, make the people aware of your interest and the service we offer. Radio and television stations are always on the lookout for human interest items as well as the newspapers. Get active--go public. Let's build our state groups so that we have twenty or thirty members instead of five or six. EDITOR'S NOTE: Texas has about 250 members but is also quite a bit larger than most of the other Central States. There are people out there who are just waiting to join. They don't know who to contact because they do not know about MUFON. With all the newspaper coverage and TV and radio items nowadays, all you have to do is get the word out. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- OF INTEREST TO STATE SECTION DIRECTORS The second State Section Directors' meeting will be held in Dallas, Texas on Saturday, December 12, 1992, from 3:30 to 6:00 p.m. State Section Directors are then invited to attend Budd Hopkins' lecture that evening at 7:30 p.m. sponsored by MUFON Metroplex, Inc. Beth McLeod, State Section Director for Collin and Rockwall Counties, advises that she does not yet know the location for his lecture, but you may call the Hotline number, (214) 497-1505, for further details. I will send out postcards to State Section Directors the first week of December to let you know the location of the SSD meeting, and if known at that time, the location where Budd Hopkins will be speaking. Beth McLeod also reports that she has had two sightings reported from people in Collin County over the past four months. The one in July was captured on videotape which was shown on one of their local TV stations. The more recent sighting was of a craft said to look like a "white pellet." Gayle Treadwell was appointed as the State Section Director for Live Oak County, which is in addition to her previous appointment as SSD for Bee County. Gayle is a rancher is Beeville, Texas, and has a B.S. in Science-Math. She has taught biology, physics and chemistry. She is curious about all scientific phenomena and would like to help find the true explanation for the UFO phenomenon. She has been a MUFON member since 1983. Finally, there are 190 counties in Texas that are not represented by MUFON. This is a situation that needs to be rectified. However, there are many SSDs who have not as yet responded to the questionnaire sent out in September. We would love to hear from you with your ideas and suggestions for improving communication in Texas and your input is important to this goal. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- in many years was set into motion. Another will follow in six or seven months. We discussed putting together a display and information booth for use next summer during the UFO Information Week at the shopping malls. Another of our members, Paul McCoy, is working on a saucer-shape canopy to use at that booth. I took time out to do another T.V. show, during which I read the Bigalowe questions and asked for the audience to mail in their answers so we could conduct our own survey. Telephone response was good and I have already started receiving the survey answer sheets. Our next step is to get Stephanie to write the program to analyze the information. Getting ready for our first public meeting, a "round-table discussion" to help witnesses deal with their experiences as UFO abductees, has occupied quite a bit of my time. Trying to set up a meeting outline with just the right amount of structure has not been easy. We want the attendees to be comfortable and to have ample opportunity to speak up, but at the same time we don't want any one person to take over and monopolize the meeting. How to set that up without making the meeting more presentation than discussion has required some thinking, writing, reading, rethinking, rewriting and rereading. The date and time, November 28, 1992, from 1 to 4 PM, is firm. The meeting place is as yet unconfirmed but expected to be Corpus Christi Public Library, 805 Comanche. Help and suggestions from any of you will always be appreciated and we would be happy to see any of you in our audience. Anyone interested in making the drive can call me, Doris Upchurch (512/937-2381), for location confirmation or other information. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BOOK REVIEW INTO THE FRINGE By Karla Tumer, Ph.D. Published 1992, The Berkley Publishing Group, 200 Madison Avenue, New York NY 10016 Until Whitley Strieber wrote his first-hand account of the intrusion into his life by alien abductors, the books on this subject have primarily been written by UFO investigators rather than those who have lived the experience. Now we have another very powerful book written by a woman who only came to know of her own experiences after she assigned UFOs as a possible research topic to her freshman university students in a course in argument and logic. After her introduction into the phenomenon, the book chronicles her and her family's and their friends' experiences, their seeking out and finding a MUFON group for answers, and their finding a hypnotherapist in Oklahoma who eventually worked with Dr. Turner and her family to uncover their memories through regressive hypnosis. She discovered that the abductions did not cease after their hypnosis sessions, and for a time, were happening on an incomprehensibly frequent basis. Dr. Turner's courage in writing this book is evident, as she reveals many things which are very personal to her and her family. Her intelligence and writing ability are evident. She doesn't cite similar cases for corroboration of the events which her family experienced as has been done in books written by UFO investigators to prove the validity of their claims. Rather, she tells a story, her story, and lets the reader decide whether to believe it or not. For those who want to know more about how these incredible experiences affect the daily lives of ordinary people, this is the book to read. Second Opinion Very well thought out and presented, this book brings out a whole other side of the abduction experience. The accounts of their experiences is very credible, and the book is very thorough in the presentation. It reads very well, and is strongly recommended. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ANOTHER BOOK REVIEW Behold a Pale Horse By (Milton) William Cooper Published 1991, Light Technology Publishing PO BOX 1495, Sedona, AZ, 86336 Many of you may be aware of the information brought forth by Milton William (Bill) Cooper back in 1989. Sent out over the computer networks, and originally titled "Operation: Majesty" (and later re- released as "Operation: Majority"), it presented details of a connection beh,veen the United States Government and alien beings. This connection had ------------------------------------------------------------------------ UFO MediaWatch This is intended to be a continuing notice of UFO material appearing in the mass media. If you happen to notice something, please drop us a note about it, and it will be included in the next issue. TELEVISION.. Sightings is on Fox Stations across the nation, usually at 8PM on fridays. They had an episode about the UFOs in Anza, CA recently.. ..2 weeks ago, Quantum Leap (NBC) featured a Government Coverup/UFO plot. Sam was an abductee... A Kentucky Fried Chicken Commercial from a couple of months ago featured alien spacecraft landing in the parking lot... And speaking of commercials, Lite Beer made fun of crop formations with their logo. Also present were a load of green aliens and spacecraft.. And, of course, the M&M Mars commercials for Halloween, featuring 3 odd looking aliens try to " get home. " .. Star Trek: The Next Generation had an episode where members of the crew were abducted by aliens from another dimension......Unsolved Mysteries (NBC) continues to feature UFO stories whenever possible. MOVIES.....Joan Didion and John Gregory Dunne have put together a script for "Zone of Silence," a movie about the Government UFO coverup.. Jacques Vallee's ~Messengers of Deception" is apparently in production....Tracy Torme is on location shooting " Fire in the Sky," a movie about the Travis Walton encounters for Paramount Pictures.. Kevin Randle & Don Schmitt's book "UFO Crash at Roswell" is apparently in development with "a major playwright as screenwriter and a noted director" already on board. BOOKS... Did you know that the book "Behold A Pale Horse" (reviewed in this issue) has picked up a new supporter? None other than Louis Farrakhan. MAGAZINES.. UFO Magazine and The Fortean Times have recently devoted large amounts of space to the Cydonia Formations on Mars........ Strange Magazine recently did a big spread on humanoids. Sources for this information include UFO Magazine, The Fortean Times, and the Austin-American Statesman "Special Edition," as well as watching too much TV. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- been initiated after the famous Roswell Crash of 1947, and supposedly continues today. This book continues this hypothesis, and adds more fuel to his fire. The information presented in his book is, in a word, spooky. If it is authentic, then it presents details that would scare the pants off the most sturdy person you know. The excerpts from the document "Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars" (allegedly found in an auctioned off photocopier and a copy sent to Cooper) are very specific about ways to manipulate the population of this country. The corroborating statements for some of his information are also very interesting. Bill Cooper spent time in the Armed Forces, including several years in the Navy. It was during this Naval hitch that he says he gained access to the "Operation: Majority" files, as well as the Project Grudge files. His book tells of joint alien/Government underground bases (very similiar to Paul Bennewitz claims), and warns that the country has already been sold up the river to the aliens and the "Secret Government." He also claims that JFK was killed by the driver of the limousine to cover up this connection. Be aware, major UFOlogists have said that Cooper is either a disinformationalist or a nut case. That is okay, however, because he apparently says the same things about them. (As an aside, if we could just stop calling names and look at whatever the evidence is, I think we would all be better off...PL). This book is a must read for any conspiracy people, and it does include a lot of interesting things. Its value to the UFO Community, however, remains in doubt. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- DIS-INFORMATION CAMPAIGN REVEALED BY GEORGE WINGFIELD When George Wingfield spoke at the Central Texas UFO mini-Conference on September 26, 1992 (sponsored by Austin MUFON), he played a tape. This tape was a recorded phone conversation taken to gain information about the British government's very successful disinformation campaign. The campaign has been in the form of n Doug and Dave n as the hoaxers of the multitude of crop circle formations seen in England over the past several years. For those who were at all knowledgeable about these beautiful patterns in the crops in England and other countries, it was apparent that it was not physically possible for these two old men to have produced 700 circles in one rather short growing season in 1991, nor the approximately 2,000 circles recorded previous to that (plus 1992's formations). While George was in Austin, we learned that he was going to publish a transcript of this tape in the Centre for Crop Circle Studies' publication The Circular, for which he is the Editor. Apparently, much pressure was being exerted on those crop circle researchers who remained in England while George was on tour in the U.S. to prevent this particular edition of Circular from being distributed (although it had already been printed). We recently heard from George after he left Austin that those pages containing the transcript were removed prior to distribution of The Circular. However, we were given permission by George to reprint the article for this newsletter. Attached, in its entirety, is the article as it was to have appeared in the current (third quarter 1992) issue of The Circular. Please feel free to distribute this information as you see fit. NOTE: In a recent conversation with Gloria Wingfield, we learned that George is being taped on November 11 for the Larry King show, which will then be aired on November 20 at 8:00 p.m. on CNN. Hopefully, this date will not change. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Article cut from "The Circular" Volume 3, Number 3 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- THE CIRCULAR INTERVIEW Jim Schnahel Subject of The Circular interview in this issue is Jim Schnabel. He has written several newspaper articles on the circles beginning with an item in the Washington Post last year which espoused the case of orthodox Meadenism. More recently he collaborated with Robert Irving to pro-duce a piece for the Independent Maga-zine in which it was implied that many of the major pictograms in the mid-Wiltshire area were hoaxed by the UBI group. Although UBI have faked a few minor formations (of which CCCS has full de-tails) suggestions of major hoaxing by them -- at, say, Alton Barnes -- are known to be untrue and this article can only be seen as part of Schnabel and Irving's campaign to make peoplc think that the pictograms are all hoaxes and promote the highly dubious claims of Doug Dave. Unlike Doug & Dave, Schnabel is an accomplished circlefaker and in July he came second in The Cerealogist's Circlemaking Competition at West Wycombe. Described then as the "Master of Grapeshot", he did not deny having had previous circlemaking experience. Ostensibly Schnabel is a student doing a post-graduate course in sociology at Bath University. Despite this his telephone number is on the Oxford exchange and his address in Bath (where Robert Irving lives) is secret. He usually gives his address as c/o Lincoln College, Oxford, although at the beginning of 1992 Lincoln College stated that Schnabel no longer had any connection with them. In the following candid interview Schnabel reveals his role as a paid disinformation agent working for an unnamed western intelligence organisation. From what he says one is made aware of the extent and determination of the continuing campaign to rubbish the circles and discredit the researchers. This campaign is but a continuation of the Doug & Dave scam with different faces, different players. The "interviewer" in this case is Armen Victorian, who has written for Thc Circu- lar previously and who introduces himself as Kasaba Ntumba. Unaware of Ntumba's true identity Schnabel gradually opens up to this apparently sympathaic caller. It is only fair to say that Schnabel now denies everything which is contained herein and telephoncd me some days later in a state of scarcely suppressed agitation to claim that he had just been "winding up" Victorian (whom he had never met or talked to, apart from a very brief intro- ductory phone call a short while before on the same day). Readers of The Circular will have to judge for themselves whether or not this is the case. One may justifiably ask why someone would ever reveal well-hidden secrets to a total stranger at such short notice. I can only say that Victorian has achieved simi- lar coups time and again in speaking by telephone to top intelligence officers in the U.S.A., in South Africa and in other countries and these people have frequently regretted what they have let slip. If Schnabel had been "winding up~ Victo- rian, it is inconceivable that he would then ring me up and come clean. Apart from anything else he never normally calls me, and of all the hoaxes I've known --not just circular ones--no hoaxer has ever once sprung forward saying "it's all a hoax, don't believe a word I just said!" Double bluff? Well, if you believe that, you'll believe anything ! The acid test, of course, is the tape re- cording itself rather than the transcript. Listen to this and, as with the recent "Dianagate" tapes, one soon discards the notion that the responses are contrived or false. It is to be regretted that inform- ation has been obtained in this way but in the face of a ruthless and sustained campaign to deceive the public and CCCS this is amply justified For people who scoff at the idea that intelligence agencies have any interest in the circles phenomenon, I can only say that when in Washington, D. C., last April I was taken specifically to meet four charm-ing gentlemen from the CIA who made no secret about their profession and also their interest in the circles and the UFO phenomenon. This is entirely consistent with the content of this intervicw. --Editor [Telephone rings] Sch: Hello. Vic: Mr Schnabel? Sch: Yes. Vic: This is Mr Ntumba. Sch: Oh, hi. Hallo. Vic: I'm sorry to bother you at this time of the night. I was...now then, I was speaking to your friend. Sch: Sorry? Vic: I was, I was speaking to your friend a few hours ago, Mr Robert Irving. Sch: Oh yeah, Rob Irving, yeah. Vic: That's right; and I understand that you won the second prize inproving that, eventually, these, eh, circles are not really what the others think are made by 7-feet green men. And they are very much in an earth bound situation. Sch: Yes, yes, I wouldn't have to prove anything really. Vic: My congratulations - [laughs] - you did a good job. Sch: Thank you very much, thank you very much. Vic: Have you published anything? Sch: Yes, eh, I have published a few things.... Vic: In magazines or newspapers - or private or..? Sch: Well, yeah, I published something just this past weekend. Vic: Ah! Sch: In the Independent Magazine - that was a collaboration with.... Vic: Hey! You have an American accent! Sch: Sorry? Vic: You have an American accent. Sch: Yes, I'm originally from the States, that's true. Vic: Which part? Sch: I'm from the East Coast. Vic: East Coast. New York part? Sch: In Virginia. Vic: Virginia, a beautiful part of the country. Sch: Yes it is, thank you very much. Vic: Beautiful part of the country. One thing. . . One thing that Mr Irving said to me that I was a bit puzzled. He said that he works at a group of intelligence ..., or something like that. Sch: Oh, he did? Vic: He did. Sch: [Laughs] He, um... Vic: When? Sch: He sometimes, eh. . ., says things that he shouldn't say, but, eh... Vic: What? Did he work genuinely with an intelligence... Sch: Sorry - say that again. Vic: Did he actually work with intelligence in the past? Sch: Well, I really couldn't comment on anything like that. I mean I think you'd have to ask him. Vic: 'Cos he was saying to me that - you know...What did he say to me?... It was something that mystified me, to be perfectly honest with you. Eh, you know, he said that it pays, you know, that exactly what, you know, he said to me, to do what he is doing and he works with a Western intelligence...., he said to me. Sch: Yeah Vic: And he said that man doesn't live on bread alone. Sch: Yeah, well, you know, I really couldn't comment on any of that, I mean, ...eh.... Vic: Do you know, if that's the case that he is actually working with? Sch: Well, I wouldn't want to say anything on the record obviously. Vic: [Laughs.] Well I don't blame you, can I? But I mean is he..? What I'm trying to say is you know....Look, you've handled these cases for several....sometimes people say things, as you've said yourself. Is it saying it in order to create credence and mystery or you know this .... ? because if it is the case, it backfires doesn't it, because that makes the man.... you know what I'm trying to say. Sch: No, I'm not clear [nor am I, Ed.!] Vic: All I'm saying is....if that's not the case, the man doesn't work, so why is he making all this, you know...statements, you see what I'm saying, it makes him look, you know, a person who doesn't have any credit in his opinion - do you see what I'm trying to say. Sch: Well.... Vic: It's like me saying I'm the king..... Sch: Well, I don't know.... Vic: Well, it's like me claiming.... Sch: I don't know what he has said but I mean he does have some connections in...I don't know, but I don't think thats something that either of us want to talk about. Vic: But you know - there is a story... Sch: I don't quite know who you are, so I don't want to talk about it in too much detail. Vic: No, but I've been reading some of these magazines they have issued about groups and these articles about the 7-foot green men... groups put out that there's intelligence in it, etc., etc., and now Mr Irving says that to me. You see I was a bit taken back. Is there any interest from the intelligence part in it as well? Sch: Sorry, intelligence....? Vic: Any interest from the intelligence part in the phenomenon? Sch: Well, does he have an interest in the intelligence? . . . I'm not sure quite what. . . Vic: What l'm trying to tell.... it's my bad English, I'm sorry. Sch: About MI5, or are you talking about UFOs? Vic: Anything...any intelligence group, any govemment intelligence group..... Sch: No, no, it's clear to me now. Yes, well I mean....off the record, I mean I think a number of agencies throughout the world have taken an interest in this. Vic: Well, that we've heard, haven't we? Sch: It is potentially a very explosive phenomenon. Vic: I mean, can they exploit it, how can they exploit the phenomenon? Sch: Well, I mean, I think...I think some of us are concerned that the phenomenon may - it's difficult to explain, but.... Vic: ..Try me! Sch: We believe there is certainly something very sinister about what's going on - eh..., I don't know whether you're a Christian man or not....? Vic: I am a Christian... of course I am. Sch: But some of us feel quite.... Vic: I'm a Catholic. Sch: Well, yes, yes, so am I. And some of us feel concerned that, eh.... Vic: Some arms of the government are doing something... psychological warfare, or psychotronic weaponry, you know. Sch: We think that sometimes that a little bit of intrigue .. sometimes is necessary in cases as serious as this, um, and sometimes measures have to be taken, but I think, I mean, overall, I think that the phenomenon is something which we think will disappear very shortly. Vic: [Bated breath!!] How, how, how, how, how, how? I mean, I'm sorry, I'm just curious - it's mind-boggling what you're saying! But how, how do you know that will happen? Sch: [Sigh] Well, we think that it, that people will no longer take notice of it, I mean, it may continue but, eh, it.... Vic: But why do you say phenomena? You proved that this is man-made, if it's a man-made. . . how could it be a phonomena? Or am I in the dark, or I've missed something somewhere? Sch: Well, I'm, I'm, I think some of them are definitely man-made; I mean definitely. Vic: But, so, but so, we are suggesting that there's also a part to it that is genuine? Sch: I think there is a part which is entirely sinister and I'm not sure how genuine it is or whether it's made by people but it's something very sinister and I think it's something that.... Vic: Are we talking about magic, dark powers? Sch: Possibly, yes.. and I think that it... Vic: Now hang on, I'm getting a bit... it's intriguing, when we say dark powers are we talking about... sort of...Satan and that sort of thing, or are we talking about actually....? Sch: Absolutely! Vic: I see, I see, so there isn't any sort of military implication or the test of, of weaponry or anything of that sort, which is sinister? Sch: Oh, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that.. l think it's a very complex issue though....... Vic: Are we talking about the part of the military wing who's under the brainwashing, or whatever, of the sinister forces who are doing this - you know, making it a bit more complex? Sch: Well, well it's very difficult to explain to you - to explain the structure of some of these organisations, but...... Vic: For example? Give me an example. Sch: Why? I couldn't go into detail but, eh, basically it's something which is concerning people worldwide and various organisations have pooled their resources, worldwide, and are involved..... Vic: How about the British Government? Are they also...? Sch: Well, yes. The German Government, the American government, the Vatican has some involvement as well. Vic: How about Robert? Does Robert have anything with any of this to help them along with it, to determine what is going on? Sch: I wouldn't want to comment on the record or anything like that. Vic: Of course not. Sch: Definitely, you know....as you seem to be sympathetic to what we're saying..... Vic: Of course! What you're saying makes me worried. He is definitely on the good side Sch: He is.... he is one of our best people, yes. Vic: And he's helping the governments to determine which faction is doing this, eh, message up. [?? Ed.] Sch: Yes, it's very... extremely sensitive, sensitive work as you can probably imagine..... Vic: Is it...eh...now, let's see, are we talking about military, or are we talking about intelligence, are we talking about the negative side, you see what I'm trying to say? Sch: It's not quite a military thing but there are elements of military intelligence which have loaned resources. Vic. Ahhhh! ! We are talking about people who have had a career, they've left their career, they have corporations, etc., etc., they are developing some kind of weaponry and these are the testing ground. Sch: No, no, no, I wouldn't, I wouldn't go into that, it's much more of a spiritual warfare type of angle, I think..eh Vic: And they am trying to exploit, are they trying to exploit the populus, I mean, what are they trying to achieve? This is what I'm trying to determine. Sch: I think they are trying to bring about changes in world consciousness and. . . for evil; for, for, you know, not for good, and, eh, there are some of us who are concerned about this, and would like to see, would like to see this new trend stopped. Vic: Is there any positive element in the govemment who are supporting people like yourself or Robert or anybody else for that matter? Sch: We have support, yes, we have support at the highest levels. Vic: That's marvellous - Is it British govemment ....or a...., forgive me, I'm not trying to be a nosy parker. Sch: It involves several countries and as I say..... Vic: Are we talking NATO allies or are we talking about... ? Sch: NATO ?...it's not at the NATO level, but it's Germany involved, and this country, and the United States.. the Vatican as well. Vic: I see.....l................ are we talking about? Sch: It's actually, it involves a supernational organisation which I will not name. Vic: [Gasp] Supernational !!! Sch: Supernational organisation. Vic: Oh, good God ! Sch: Which is....? Vic: This is above my head Sch: Which has ties to these countries, and organisations. Vic: Are we talking, for example trilateral, that sort of thing? Sch: I wouldn't want to get into any specifics. Vic: Do you have any information...? I'm speculating... Sch: It's something that is, you know, very dangerous to talk about, and I hope you will...you know..... Vic: I appreciate it, I appreciate it....! mean, is it a mission that you volunteered or is it something that you actually commission people .... I mean how do they ... ? Sch: It's...we are quite committed to it, put it that way. It's not a sense of duty but it's also..... Vic: How about the other religions, does that come into it or is it only Christian religion or just Christians committed to it? eh, ... I mean Buddhism, or Judaism or Islam .... you know? Sch: I don't have a high enough overview of the whole situation to know. There may be some others involved. Vic: And the information that you gather is passed on to the higher-ups in order to be filtered out and deductions have to be taken, obviously; that should be the case? Sch: Yes, yes,.... we are not just feeding information, we are taking active measures. Vic: I hope they pay for what youv'e done, for the time and all the things that you put in to it. Sch: Well, yes...it's only natural that one should be reimbursed. Vic: That goes without saying. Sch: One has to live, you know. Vic: That is absolutely true. How many are there? Is there any way I can get, sort of, you know involved? Sch: Well, I'll tell you, if you can, um, give me some information, I understand you would probably want to do it on a very confidential level.... some information or....I could have someone possibly give you a call or visit you or something. Vic: Who, who? Is it Mr Irving who would visit me? Sch: Oh no, it would not be Mr Irving, it would not be Mr Irving. You know ...possibly...... Vic: Are you sure your telephone is not tapped? Sch: My telephone? -[laughs]- No, no, my telephone would not be tapped! my telephone is a secure phone. Vic: Give me your address, Mr Schnabel, please. Sch: Um, well, . ..[hesitation]... all right, it's, it's, um.... you can reach me, care of... I have to give you a sort of a safe, a safe box Vic: Of course! Sch: . . . because I don't actually live here, but it's: c/o Lincoln College. Vic: Lincoln College ? OK, which school in Lincoln? Sch: Lincoln College, Oxford. Vic: Oxford ? Ah ha! Sch: That's all you need to do, just: care of.... To Jim Schnabel, c/o Lincoln College, Oxford. Vic: I would be able to reach you there? Sch: Yes. Vic: OK. And if I actually wanted to put anything in it I would be hopefully visited by somebody? Sch: Sorry? Vic: I would be briefed about how I can start, you know, etc., etc.? Sch: Yes, I mean... if you give me some information........ [This section is intentionally omitted] A second call is then made on the following day: Vic: Mr Schnabel? Sch: Yes. Vic: Hello, this is Ntumba speaking. I put something into the post for you today. Sch: Ah, good, good. Vic: It will be with you if all goes well, hopefully by Tuesday - you know how well your mail works..... Sch: No, I think today's a Bank Holiday so there won't be any mail through. Vic: Well, I had first class stamps so I did that.... Now, I remember when this, eh, ******* came here, who ...you know when you said to me... has been a very good source.. there was another man... Sch: Excuse me, just let me pull the phone into my room here to be private. Vic: OK, of course. [ Very long pause ensues] Sch: Yes, right. Vic: Is it better? Sch: Yes. Vic: OK. You remember last time when we were speaking you said that, you know, ******* has been a good source with regard to promoting the cause. Sch: Yes, yes. Vic: I remember that when ******* came here there was also another person. Sch: Yes. Vic: Do you know who he was? Sch: His name is #######. Vic: Ahhhh! He was very quiet. Is he also working in the same way? Sch: I wouldn't want to speak about further things, I mean, it's extremely sensitive, I really shouldn't have told you all that I've told you already.. and unfortunately at the moment I'm quite busy with somethings, but, um, do send the material and perhaps...... I'll tell you there's um, a ........ I'm tryung to think. Will you ......... [massive hesitation]......oh, no, no, if you send the material to Lincoln College; send some indication of where you can be reached. Vic: O.K. Sch: We can discuss things further, someone else will contact you and, eh, it won't be me it will be a much more senior person in the organisation and then subsequently, eh, you know, if things work out well and more information can be shared with you. Vic: The reason that I mentioned about that gentleman ...because he was talking almost on a similar line, you know, that you were talking in many ways.... do you see what I'm sayung? Sch: I really couldn't comment further on him, I wouldn't want to compromise his position. Vic: I see ! Well, I hope that, you know...that the mission will be acomplished and that, you know, after all this time. Has there been any good witness.. ? Sch: We have no doubt of success. Vic: Well l'm delighted to hear that. Now, about the payment. How do we claim for the expenses, etc., you know, how do we go about this usually? I mean, how do you go about that? Sch: Well, that will be arranged and explained to you if, if, if.... [mumble, mumble] Vic: Is it on a monthly basis? Sch: If you are found to be a suitable candidate - it's extremely generous, don't worry about that. Vic: OK. You know there is a grcat deal of travelling backward and forward, you know, as you are involved in this... Sch: You will be expected to travel internationally. Vic: Oh, what .... that's fascinating, that is absolutely fascinating. What sort of data, you know, they would be expecting from my side to be gathered, to be collected for the cause? Sch: It would be not only gathering data but also taking active measures, possibly conducting disinformation campaigns and other measures. Vic: In order to safeguard the initial whatever it is, isn't it, the ultimate goal. Sch: Yes, it's extremely complex, I mean I think you were... you touched upon it briefly last night when you mentioned the weapon.... Vic: I was very much impressed..... Sch: The weapons systems, I mean there's the element of the weapons testiog and there's the seccnd element of the, eh, attempt to use the, eh, the phenomenon of the circles to discredit the New Age movement and other such movements. Vic: Ahhhh ! I see. Sch: It's extremely complex and much more will be explained to you if it's appropriate at a further time. Vic: Of course, of course..... Sch: Don 't worry about payment, I mean, it's very generous..... Vic: No, that's not my worry...... Sch: It's extremely strenuous work and... Sch: The organisation realises that, um, you know, sometimes people become burned out after a few years but usually theyv'e made enough money that they are able to retire - you know, after a few years anyway.... it's very generous. Vic: That's fascinating.. and the gentleman, or the person rather, who would be meeting me should my you know, whatever become serious, would he be, or would she be, an American or would she be English or different... you know? Sch: I'm not sure yet which organisation, I mean, that's not my decision - which person in the organisation, I mean, that's not my decision. It could be someone from almost any nationality. Vic: But, but, I mean what is the organisation that I would be dealing with? Sch: Well, I think that will all be explained to you. Vic: Oh, I see. When, if and when, I'm taken in. Sch: Yes. [Break] Vic: How about Colin Andrews' group - do you have any section with a remit to Colin Aodrews' group or not? Sch: We have, eh .. we have people in every group. Vic: Fascinatiog, fascinating, that's absolutely, you know, it's interesting to hear. As I said earlier, the machinery is already into the post so the best thing is I wait to hear further from you. Sch: Yes, OK, good Vic: OK. Thank you very much indeed for your time again. Sch: God bless. Vic: God bless you too. Bye bye.