Original John Titor Posts (Post2Post Art Bell Forum) – Part 2
Posted by Bob Marz on 02-22-2001 09:14 AM
It's comforting to know miracles still occur in the future as well as the distant past. I refer to your report on the Aussies repelling a Chinese invasion.
How come it doesn't bother you that people may die through your inaction yet you find it "morally wrong" that you might affect lives by active involvement?
Isn't it just as morally wrong to affect lives through inaction as it is through action? Hint: The answer is YES.
One of the issues that runs throughout your posts is this moral ambiguity. You've thought it through enough to decide it boils down to personal decision (which should liberate you from further qualms) yet you still say you dare not decide who "deserves" to (live or) die. In other words you've made the intellectual realization but it hasn't yet trickled down into your everyday life/actions. IE, Since good/evil are subjective/relative, depending on circumstance and viewpoint, you aren't required to possess precognition to discern all present or future ramifications of any lives you may save either by action/inaction. Your immediate decision, in itself, is its own authority. In the basic life versus non-life equation you should choose to support life. Further confusion, such as (as you said) whether you're qualified to determine who deserves to live or die, is outside your sphere of influence, therefore you're not responsible for such a decision. But, here's the crux, rather than decidecide to simply remain uninvolved, you should simply move in the direction of life-affirming action. If good and evil achieve a balance in the larger picture, as you suspect, and all life is "God" experiencing physical manifestation, the question of you being required to decide who lives or dies is moot. What should motivate you is that which promotes this life process, a subset of which is experience/information/knowledge viability.
The fact that I couldn't restrain myself from telling you this because I see you bumping your head against it constantly means, sadly, it's non-experiential for you and probably obstructs your embracing this idea rather than facilitates it.
"If you have not lived it, it is not true."
"The only real sin is that which obstructs the acquisition of knowledge."
"Friend, listen. The God whom I love is inside."
Thanks for the ride, you've done a great job here.[Edited by Bob Marz on 02-22-2001 at 09:22 AM]
Posted by James R.Quayle III on 02-22-2001 09:51 AM
Guierdjeff,Ouspensky spoke of how humans will eventually need to go back in time and bring every wrong to right ,every hitler to moot.Through tech or mind one will eventually give into the good,if one can travel through time then fixing things would be the new prime directive I would think,to take it upon oneself to right the wrongs if one can to protect the beautiful thing which is the fragile human life experience,to be loyal to this experience all we humans reading this go through(To nurture humans in what ever time one finds oneself into).To awaken in a utopia because men and women went back and hinted and helped some who were to be swayed by evil to be strong and do what we all know is right.Eventually we all have to get along on the planet.Languages and culture/customs should not divide but unite through the randomness and difference in the others.Perhaps telepathy would be a better communicational tool ,then what is currently being used on the planet.agentq3i would give my life to such a cause if i had a way to time travel consistantly and safely,through tech or Will(Magick),or doorways.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 02-22-2001 10:01 AM
I know some won't like me for saying this, but like I said before in the other forum, I'm not here to be liked.
I just wanted to say that there have been a few complaints from some who think your not answering their questions to their satisfaction. Now, before you would just say it's me, and that I have these expectations in how you answer my questions.
But as you can see, that was not the case, nor is it now with others.
More people nowadays are coming forward that besides the technical questions being answered, your showing signs of just being general, vague, contradictive or just plain not knowledgeable in these other areas. Where as you say, you being a Time Traveler from the year 2036, you should know this.
Just wanted to make it known to you, before you use your manipulative ways to make it seem like if you answered the question. But in fact, you haven't. You reverse alot of what you answer. And you know it.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 02-22-2001 10:08 AM
James R.Quayle III,
Yeah that's the way to do it. That's way better then doing it as something mankind should come together in an agreement on. Better then over coming our problems on our own, when there is an instant fix for it. Just change the past without them knowing it, for a future hidden agenda.
(In case you had no idea, I was being sarcastic).
Posted by John Titor on 02-22-2001 10:44 AM
I will get to all the questions. I’m trying to comment on them in order. I’m posting the names before all the questions so if you feel I missed something just bring it up again.
I saw something last night that I want everyone’s opinion on. Its concerning two television commercials advertising the same cellular phone product. The first commercial I didn’t understand right away but the second was obvious.
In the first commercial, a man dressed in cold weather gear appears to be in a snowstorm. He’s on a cellular phone saying goodbye to his family as if he was going to die in the storm. We then see he is standing in front of a snow machine at a ski resort area.
In the second commercial, another man dressed in cold weather gear is talking on a cellular phone. We see a young women inviting him to a romantic evening. He seems a bit stunned and excited, hangs up the phone and runs off. We then see he has abandoned an unconscious person he was giving emergency medical treatment to.
What do you think of these commercials?
Posted by Craig Cuthbert on 02-22-2001 10:49 AM
John - I think you live in an area that is being aimed because of a demographic profile. They would never run those kinds of ads in abig city. People would get fired up too easily.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 02-22-2001 12:14 PM
Spare us John, just say what your point is. Or is your point having people's opinions on these commercials? And if so, would that fall under one of your agendas?
Posted by Lola Montez on 02-22-2001 12:17 PM
At the risk of asking too many questions and taking up more than my share of cyberspace, please respond to one more train of thought. You refuse to give advice that might actually allow someone to dodge the bullet. I postulate that you actually do not have any more of an advantage or responsibility than the person who grabs someone who is about to step off the curb and get hit by a bus. I would not stop and think 'gee, I don't know, do they deserve to be saved from the fate of a roadkill?' A doctor or priest does not take it upon himself to decide who should be helped. A jet pilot doesn't stop to think "Hey, air travel is pretty unnatural, these people should have to walk and row their way to Paris. I am messing with the way time and space is perceived and the nature of reality with this form of transportation." Time travel is just another form of transportation in one sense. Our possible new ability to time travel in the future may not seem any more exotic than our ability to access other cultures is now. Anyway, I think maybe your reluctance to elaborate is unwarranted. What happens, happens and everything is experience. I have come to the place that there is no such thing as a bad experience just painful crash courses in personal growth.
Posted by Lola Montez on 02-22-2001 12:25 PM
I did not see your post before I got my last one on. Seems we have similar attitudes about choice and responsibility. Also, about religion as experiential.
Most ads are sick panderings to people's insecurity, sex drive or greed. If it's a really good ad it hits all three.
Posted by Jim Houlahan on 02-22-2001 12:41 PM
John - Are you posting on other (non time travel related) boards without revealing your status as a time traveler? Is the conversation as interesting? What are your conclusions so far?
Posted by Craig Cuthbert on 02-22-2001 12:45 PM
Lola and Bob - Very interesting. By the same token, why do we take the Prime Directive from Star Trek, for granted? It seems to have something to do with being able to operate with an unfair advantage. What is this about technology that seems to put the users at odds with natural law?
What if John were to rescue someone who was about to be hit by a bus, and this person then went out to a bar that night and killed someone? That's a general idea, I wonm't load it up with more scenarios and examples.
I've really enjoyed this thread guys. I would like to get a little closer to the buzz I first had, that this could be possibly true.
John - I think you have answered this - are, or were, you in contact with TTs in 2036, and if so, what percentage of the people accept it as possible? After the flight of the Wright Brothers at Kitty Hawk, it took 10 plus years for people to accept it as anything more than just an urban myth.[Edited by Craig Cuthbert on 02-22-2001 at 12:52 PM]
Posted by Lola Montez on 02-22-2001 01:09 PM
Maybe I missed your point, but mine was "how is John saving someone any different from our doing so?" I do not see him having an "unfair" advantage. He did not time travel to kill Hitlers mother after all. I guess that would be out of the 60 year limit but I imagine there is some bad guy that would fit the bill. Scientists and others are always making knowledgeable predictions but Southern California is still occupied. I doubt that John telling us what he sees coming would change very much of our behavior no matter how dire the information.
Although, I have seen some Star Trek episodes in the past I am not a Trekkie and am not familiar with Prime Directives.
Posted by Doug Beauchamp on 02-22-2001 01:28 PM
The Prime Directive in Star Trek is to explore space without interfering with any cultures not fully advanced in the area of space exploration. In short, it's there to protect other cultures. Imagine if people from space came to our planet and gave us the secret of space exploration. Likewise, imagine if a time traveler from the future came to this time period and told us the secret of time travel.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 02-22-2001 02:02 PM
Did everyone forget that John has a secret agenda? No body knows if he's killed anyone. So what if he seems like he's not capable, because of the way he sounds. He is a soilder, a person trained to kill.
Posted by Craig Cuthbert on 02-22-2001 02:28 PM
Lola - Sorry it was a quick post and it jumped across some of the mental references.
What is the difference between someone like John saving somebody and someone like me saving somebody? (BTW I have saved somebody, LOL).
The difference, of course is that John has (theoretically) come from the future with the assistance of some technology that is not native to our time. That's where the correlation to the Prime Directive derives. The real interesting question is the one you two raised. Why is this an issue? To me personnaly, its intrinsically poignant. It revolves around the same questions of technology that you could apply if you tried to go back in time with some modern weaponry and alter a particular battle.
Posted by Lola Montez on 02-22-2001 04:02 PM
Why is it different than using a jet to go to a primitive tribe and give them, say, antiobiotics. (never mind the problems with antibiotics)It is a high tech way of interfering with a culture. Who cares what time zone. Ethically isn't it the same?[Edited by Lola Montez on 02-22-2001 at 04:27 PM]
Posted by Craig Cuthbert on 02-22-2001 06:16 PM
I don't think there are a lot of differences in that analogy. Though you have to ask whether going into a tribe and innoculating them would have unintended consequences, not the least of which would be - which has happened in real life - soldiers coming in and amputating the innocualted limb. That wasn't just a story from Apocalypse Now.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 02-22-2001 11:05 PM
Haven't heard much from you today. You care to comment on what we're talking about? I know it might be a bit far from your line of expertise, but your from the future. You should have something insightful to say about this, No?
Well I can understand if you wish not to comment. I know the pressure in answering questions like this can really impose on your persona. Always selective and reserve in what you answer huh ?
P.S. So are you going to have spectators watching you leave, or not? If so, can I come by with a few of my friends ?
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 02-23-2001 07:42 AM
Javier- I wasn't really trying to be inspirational, only point out that sometimes for any understanding to occur, there needs to be a kid of base-line on where we begin an investigation. That is, we can postulate all we wish, but a theory must be in place, and several aspects of the experiment must be given a kind of non-variance in regards to belief. That is, if we do not believe ANYTHING we see or hear, we can never honestly learn, since nothing is believeable!
That is my take on this. Sure, I don't necessarily believe John is a time traveler, and I do understand that a debate (or argument if you prefer the term) prevents stagnation. Folks who blindly believe in anything that comes along are the same people that PT Barnam spoke about (ie "There's a sucker born every minute"). I am certain no one here is a sucker, but, folks tend to want to go with the crowd. I don't. You don't. And John obviously doesn't.
I would suggest that if you asked 100 people about time
travel 80% or more would say they think it is possible in SOME MANNER. 99% of them won't have a clue about science either. So... given that we have a wide range of people and talents here, I give everyone his and her due where it comes to "believing". If they wanna believe, that is THEIR perogitive. We really don't need some hero to come along and "save us".
Expose the truth, yes. So keep up the good work. haha
John - commercials. They are ignorant commercials. In fact, almost every commercial on television these days are either totally stupid (so they come out funny), or they are aimed at people whose humor suffers from being "in the black" a lot. Black humor seems to be the way things go these days. I don't much care for it.
Javier - a comment about soliers. You're correct. *I* am a solider first. I've been in the military 26 years now. I've been everything from an electronics teacher, to a team chief at the White House Communications Agency. I've seen combat (though not what most people think of as combat - fire fights in Central America). My "real job" as a reservist is the Non-Commissioned Officer in Charge (NCOIC) of a communications flight for a tactical airlift wing. I have computer, radio and cryptographers working for me. Our job.. main job is to make communications work.
Every one of us have traveled someplace dangerous, and done jobs that most people wouldn't DREAM of doing. In our civilian lives, we are all in computers or some other "less than dangerous career". Every person that works for me can climb, run, survive, shoot... and kill. They all know how to do it from the newest Mom in our group to the oldest man (me). My 18 year olds are just as deadly in their jobs as the oldest guy (which is me).
If I'm sent to do my job, I will. And killing is one part of it. Some people forget that a military member's job is killing sometimes. It isn't always their main job, but it is part of what goes with being a soldier, sailor, airman and marine. Many might balk when told they have to do it... but, they WILL do it when the time comes. Anyone know why? Because it is called survival.
If there is to be a war in our future, every man, woman and child now alive will become involved if it comes to OUR HOMEFRONT. That is, more than anything, what John has been saying I believe.
Whether it will come or not is a different story. It is MY duty to prevent a war. Even though I might be told to fight one, even against my own people - I won't kill Americans. Nor will any other military member in the US Armed forces.
So - to John... this is a kind of an answer to something you said earlier on. No, military people are not asked to sign anything saying they will kill anyone. It is either an urban legend that has been perpetuated in the past few years, or it really happened with one Marine platoon in 29 palms. I've had two men tell me they participated, and both say it happened, but it was NOT a military-wide thing.
I've researched this. NO ONE HAS ANY DOCUMENTATION ON IT! That's the facts. The fiction is what my side (the progun people) are pushing about the UN. But, that is another discussion for another time - and perhaps another place.
Suffice it to say, the US Military will never turn on the people, we are sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic ... and to obey the laws of the President and the Officers appointed above (us) me. That means the orders have to be LAWFUL. Think on that folks, as you consider your future actions.
Posted by John Titor on 02-23-2001 08:08 AM
((So - to John... this is a kind of an answer to something you said earlier on. No, military people are not asked to sign anything saying they will kill anyone. It is either an urban legend that has been perpetuated in the past few years, or it really happened with one Marine platoon in 29 palms. I've had two men tell me they participated, and both say it happened, but it was NOT a military-wide thing.))
I agree the details are very important. My statement ended with a question mark. I made no difinitve statement.
"I’m not positive but don’t they sign a small piece of paper now asking them if they would have a problem with that?"
Posted by Javier Cortez on 02-23-2001 08:25 AM
Wow, I had no idea you were in the Military. You don't come off as an NCO. Well most of the ones I met were A-Holes. It's good to know some nice people are in the Military after all .
What branch and what rank, if you don't mind me asking?
Posted by Javier Cortez on 02-23-2001 08:33 AM
Atleast we know John is here reading these. He's just not answering .
I have a question for you. Since your here, you won't mind answering it.
What did you anticipate when you came to these boards? What reason could you have to come here and spill your guts to the whole world who you are? I mean, did you think you would get people to listen to you. I think you knew you would...
But I am picking up, that you have encountered a few things you didn't anticipate. And it's only becoming more apparent as the days go on.
Now Military knows about you. Worried?
What are your thoughts as you see your perfect little world you created with lies shatters into pieces?
P.S. Answer my others questions too.[Edited by Javier Cortez on 02-23-2001 at 08:58 AM]
Posted by Filip Sandor on 02-23-2001 10:31 AM
I don't see the need to bring out any BS o'meter; what are we going to prove? That it is not worth thinking seriously about what our time traveler friend has come to share with us? What is it going to change if we KNOW FOR CERTAIN whether John is really from the future? It will definately change SOMETHING (different for all of us), I know that much for sure, but I don't think we need that sort of distraction at this point.
Honestly, I believe that even if John answered all your questions correctly, Mike, it would change nothing of the essence of John's message. I really think he is trying to tell us something; more than the fact that he is a time traveler. Now, if we could just pin-point what it is that he is trying to tell us; I literally mean, pin-point, or focus on. The message is clear, but we like to create lots of fog.
Time travel is REAL. Anyone who knows physics well or has listened to Art's guest, Mr. David Anderson about a week ago, knows this.
The truth is we can run, but we can't hide (from own actions). So why even bother, why not face what we are faced with? Even if we managed to get a knavish grip on a 'magical' time machine, what would it really change for us... unless we knew what to use it for? It is irrelevant for us to have access to a time machine or to know which time John has come to visit us from when there are really more important things for us to think about, at least some of the time. I am not saying we have to BELIEVE John to be a time traveler, that is irrelevant, but I think we should listen to his ideas about what we might be able to do in order to prevent our own greeds from consuming us whole.
John, I appreciate you being here and I think most of us do, even if your presence only means a good debate, which some of us evidentally enjoy. Debates are good!
I would like to finish this post with a question (for John): Is spiritual awakening a difficult process; if yes, then why is it so difficult, and are we all capable of it?
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 02-23-2001 11:06 AM
Wow, I had no idea you were in the Military. You don't come off as an NCO. Well most of the ones I met were
A-Holes. It's good to know some nice people are in the Military after all . What branch and what rank, if you don't mind me asking?
Hahaha is that how folks see us military guys? There is a saying a buddy has who was an officer in the Air Force. He tells me that his job as an officer was really to be "diplomatic" to get a job done (including war fighting) but when diplomacy fails it is the NCO's 'kick @$$ and take names'"
Mostly, I see where time travel if is becomes a real thing in our 'time line' would indeed be handled by the US Space Command and then eventually would off shoot to a US Time Command or something like that.
Remember that todays NCOs and Sargents are not like they were in times past. Today, some of the enlisted personnel in the United States military are as educated (if not more so) than most of the officers.
Also, Javier - about me personally, remember, I'm an active duty RESERVIST, so I am a civilian most of the time. Also, remember that military people, are no different from any one else except in certain attitudes they might maintain. In other words, we are just as curious, just as intelligent and just as politically savvy as any civilian out there. The difference being we are sometimes limited on our avenues of voicing our opinions.
The military in general is "conservative" about social, economic and even political idealisms. You can not honestly be a "liberal minded" person in the military and expect to last long. Why? Because you tend to beliefs that are contridictory to military life.
That isn't saying we do not have things like gays, and non-religious people. That isn't saying we don't have out and out anti-"Republican" "forces" in the military. But, they are few and far between.
Anyway... I know this is less about time travel than it should be, and semi-iff topic, but in a way, it does relate to the over all scheme of things in this "time line".
Take care all... see you all on the other side (of the weekend).
Posted by Randy Empey on 02-23-2001 11:19 AM
Here is some cut&paste to put this in perspective:
((I believe that faith AND good works will get one to God. There are other things, but they can arguably be included under the headings of 'faith' and 'good works'.
I believe there is an organized force of evil that works against God's plan for men's souls. It’s all part of the plan. Your next question may be "Why do you believe that?" ))
Please don’t think me so cynical. I would never insult or degrade someone’s religious views. My next questions would be “what about knowledge?” I am a firm believer that faith (and good works) is not enough to get to God. There is a mystery we must solve first. ))
Imagining cynicism where it is not is a hobby of mine, please excuse me if I sound too paranoid for your tastes.
What about knowledge?
There are plenty of great mysteries, but if your only aim its to 'get to God', it is not neccesary to solve them.
Faith and good works is enough. Its got to be the right kind of faith and good works of course, but you don't have to be a wise old monk to get into heaven. .
But what about knowledge? That is where the fun begins . . .
If ones aim is to become like God, or be able to cooperate with him in his future endeavors, or self betterment, then spending ones life questing after knowledge is a good recipe. There are plenty of mysteries to be discovered. But the rewards are not at the end so much as they are in the journey.
Learning is what we are here to do.
At the same time, there is still a 'light side' and a 'dark side.'
I look forward to further conversation here.
Another question has just hit me --- What do you see for the future of TT in your world-line?
Posted by John Titor on 02-23-2001 11:31 AM
((You mention gathering written material here . . . so I assume you do a lot of reading -- before this trip, in your spare time, did you read much fiction? If so, what genre? Any books from this century?))
I am a big fan of Conrad, Twain, London and any type of religious apocryphia.
((What brought you to this bbs in the first place?))
When I decided to present or revel myself as a displacement driver I had been watching similar boards for quite a while. I believe the only way to accept what I have to say as being remotely possible requires an open mind able to temporarily suspend major portions of the belief and logic system. In his own strange way, even Javier falls into this category. I would much rather talk to him than a straight line, give me the equations physicist. I don’t gain any insight that way.
((And here is another character-o-meter question I'd like you to answer: Have you seen George Lucas's Star Wars Trilogy (bonus points for any of the prequels or sequels)?))
Yes I have seen them. I like the first one the best and the “next one”, in my opinion, isn’t that great either. That's a heck of a battery those light sabers.
((1: What happens to Bill Clinton between now and 2036 ))
I don’t really know.
((2: What happens to Bill Gates between now and 2036))
This I do know but I won’t discuss.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 02-23-2001 09:22 PM
John you opportunist, why don’t you answer my questions? Why so selective and silent? Did I scare you off or something, why you backing off? I must have told you the truth, and now you must be thinking it over .
You’re like a vulture, in the sense that your just waiting to find a question to bring up your popularity back up. While avoiding those that would bring it down. Cause you know your afraid. I told you it was only a matter of time.
I’m lucky, I don’t fear anything, and I stick to my word.
The TimeTravelActivist say’s, “Any question, any time, JUST BRING IT!”
-J.C.[Edited by Javier Cortez on 02-23-2001 at 09:42 PM]
Posted by Jeanette Foresta on 02-24-2001 07:05 AM
I had met someone, a year or so ago, who said he was from the year 2036 also. He said something happened to make this travel all the more possible.
He gave me some details, I wonder if they are the same as yours.
I printed out and read the article at the site you wrote.
The five presidents? He gave me a breakdown of the government in 2036, I would like to know if there is something called the DNE? Democracy of a New Earth? In which the world is broken into 5 sections. I won't elaborate here. Yet. I may write it into an article, but then I would feel guilty, (as you say)for being money hungry, and not just contributing. I will think about what I will do according to if I hear from you personally.
Posted by John Titor on 02-24-2001 12:37 PM
((Why are orphans an issue? It seems war orphans would be pretty old by now.))
Problems with the environment still have lasting affects on all people, which cause the average life span to lower. In addition, people are more susceptible to accidents. Family life and children are very highly valued and the community takes the responsibility for raising children if their parents die.
((What is your biggest or gravest environmental issue?))
Water. You need it for everything and there is very little left in the world that is positively safe to drink.
((Does distillation remove radioactivity from water?))
It removes the dust and dirt particles that are radioactive.
((Do people still watch TV?))
Yes but it isn’t broadcast anymore.
((Are there any women on your travel team?))
Not that I’m aware of but I would assume there are women who are either trained or are training for the same type of work. I don’t know why there wouldn’t be.
((What is the status of women in your time?))
I understand the question but I have nothing to relate it to in 2036. The status of women is the same as men. Equality issues disappeared during the war.
((Do they hold office?))
((Work outside the home?))
Women are not expected to stay home and be “barefoot and pregnant” if that’s what you mean.
((Get equal pay?))
((Are they safe on the streets at night?))
There is still crime but people do not attack each other the way they do here.
((What do women wear for the most part?))
Clothing is more functional. Women wear very similar clothing as men when working or training. In our free time or with our family and friends, clothing is much more individualized. Long dresses, knitted sweaters and pants are still quite popular. You’ll have to forgive me; I’m not very good at describing women’s clothing.
((Are the Amish alive and well?))
Yes, I believe they are.
((What is the birth rate?))
I don’t know the exact figures but having children is radically lower than it is now. It is the one thing I wish we had that you enjoy here.
((Is there an unusual rate of birth defects and if so what kind?))
Yes. Mostly stillborn.
((You said that your culture was centered around the Universities. Weren't they wiped out in the war? They are in cities after all. ))
Not all major universities are in large cities.
((Do you use cell phones?))
Yes, we use a form of cell phone.
((Eat allot of red meat?))
Yes but not as much as you do.
Yes but they are not produced in nearly the same numbers or used the same way.
((Are airlines in operation?))
Yes but again, not nearly as many.
Yes, but most people don’t get really want to go overseas.
((Are people pressured (subtle or otherwise) to adhere to a Christian doctrine?))
Not at all.
((Do police make drug busts?))
((Are there many jails? What kind of criminals are in them?))
Yes there are jails. Mostly theft, fraud, rape and murder.
((What kind of public punishment is there?))
Hard labor, community service, banishment (you must move to another community), public execution.
((Sounds like New England during religious persecution and intolerance. ))
How do you define intolerance? We don’t really have the energy or desire to waste time being intolerant. If you produce and help the community than you can do pretty much think and do anything you want within the law.
((Are there Wholistic healers? Herbal medicines? Alternative life styles? ))
((Is there personal freedom?))
Yes, the same freedoms you enjoy under the Constitution.
((Is there an IRS and a need to keep a lot of receipts and paperwork around to justify yourself?))
Yes, we pay taxes. Sounds like you don’t enjoy keeping track of your personal income taxes. I don’t think anyone does.
((Is the same type of currency used? Is ours today good in say 2010 or 2020?))
Yes, we use money. That’s a good question. I don’t see why you couldn’t use your current bills in the future.
((Other than time travel how do most people get around the country? Do people tend to travel much? ))
There is a high-speed train system, horseback, bike, walking. Automobiles are used mostly for sport and some transportation.
((Are people suspicious of strangers or all you one big happy family now?))
There is still conflict and mistrust. Yes, I am suspicious of strangers. I think that’s an instinct we are given to help us stay alive.
((How do most people die during the war? Radiation, starvation? bullet wounds?))
Correct…but in this order: Starvation – Disease – Bullet Wounds – Radiation.
Posted by Richard Lina on 02-24-2001 01:24 PM
John,thank you for sharing,I find this fasinating.wanted to ask, has California,had"the Big" earthquake,in your time and has any of the north Coast disappeared?..also, I really do wish that you could be a guest on Art's show,I am sure it would be enjoyable...thanks again.....Richard
Posted by Javier Cortez on 02-24-2001 02:22 PM
How hard is it for you to come up with a one sentance answer to people's questions? That's what you just did, though you might say it took you a whole day to come up with what to say.
Posted by Craig Cuthbert on 02-24-2001 02:49 PM
I hope my last couple of posts weren't too off the wall. Just wanted to say that I understand why someone assisted by advanced technology, would have reservations about interfering with the status quo here. The law of unintended consequences.
So John, c'mon man (do people still say that?), let's hear what kind of culture you live in.
>What music do 20 year olds listen to.
>What's the future of cloning.
>Any more on Bill Gates?
>Do people wear chips yet?
>Are you a marked man?
BTW, Which hand are you not supposed to take it on (hint: its not the left) and why?
Posted by Randy Empey on 02-24-2001 03:04 PM
Keep up the crusade, but . . . .
Bear in mind that your expectations seem unjustified to us less concerned about John's veracity.
Some times I go for days without even reading posts, but should my critics hassle me about it?
I know . . . I know . . . . extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof . . . . but thats only to prove them, not to talk about the ramifications of thier possibility or the ideas involved.
Posted by Lola Montez on 02-24-2001 04:02 PM
Thanks for taking the trouble. I would still like to know what population makes a city big.
Your time sounds grim. Are you tempted to deliver your computer to 2036 and then retire in the 1970's?
What did you think about those commercials?
Posted by Pamela Moore on 02-24-2001 04:49 PM
When it is beginning to rain....
it is time to go rainbow gazing.
Posted by John Titor on 02-24-2001 05:24 PM
Its been pointed out to me that the links to the pictures are all down for some reason.
If anyone has a public site I can post them again, I will be happy to see that they get to you.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 02-24-2001 05:32 PM
John is here reading these posts. Only answering when it's convenient for him (i.e. the nature of the question doesn’t entitle him being exposed). So as you can see, it’s not like he’s been away for quite a while, he’s making him self-known to us, and avoiding to answer my questions.
Do you not see that?
Posted by Lola Montez on 02-24-2001 07:14 PM
No word on why the pics are down?
Posted by Pamela Moore on 02-25-2001 12:44 AM
Problems with the pictures:
I have got in contact with Doc, where the pictures are located-
Doc is having some technical difficulty with the site.
Where geocities has suddenly restricted some of his images.
He should be able to correct the problem he said.
and if not he can easily move them to a site that can not be touched.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 02-25-2001 01:36 AM
Since you have appointed your self as John's personal representative. Perhaps you can assist in shading some light into who he real is. Tell us, is he fearful of what he has done and how things have turned out here in these message boards? Notice how silent he’s gotten, and only answering specific questions.
What’s your opinion on that?
Oh yeah, busy archiving, but still able to read these posts and post when convenient.
Do you personally think he’s for real? I can understand if you wish not to tell me. I respect you for keeping it a secret, if he asked you not to tell.
Either way, I will still keep asking John questions, and others will too. Until… well I don’t want to break it to you, how will you feel if he is exposed as a fraud? I know you believe into his story quite a bit, I’d hate for you to feel betrayed and deceived by him. It’s a terrible feeling, trust me. I once had a friend who I thought I could trust, until I found out the truth.
Well I hope this doesn’t upset you. I understand that people are always going to be looking for answers. But they shouldn’t take short cuts in finding them (i.e. Time Travel). And everyone is always going to need someone to look up to and to acknowledge. But John here, has a secret agenda, and is being praised like a God. Now doesn’t that just strike you as wrong? It does to me.
Posted by John Titor on 02-25-2001 07:31 AM
((John, do they have anything to do with the "future" of time travel, as YOU know it?))
There are numerous people and organizations that contribute to the practical application of physical time travel. I think you would be surprised how much real work is being done right now.
((About video taping the departure... Let us assume you do this, and your agents (family?) in Florida send the tape to the Sci Fi channel, or to Art Bell... how would this affect you in the future?))
It wouldn’t affect me on my home worldline in the least. I would only be concerned how it would affect the “me” here. Of course it may be a large part of my secret agenda and I have no choice but to do it anyway.
((Theoretically speaking, I doubt that anyone could determine that you actually time traveled, but it would certainly make a very good show.))
I wonder what it would have been like to see a plane break the sound barrier before the jet engine was invented?
((You said that there will be a big war right? And that Russia will nuke some of our major cities, right? Can you at least tell us which cities will be nuked?))
No I won’t do that. However, I submit to you that when the moment comes it will be absolutely plain as day that you are unsafe in the cities. The millions people that stay will choose to stay. That's what comes as a surprise.
((Are we traveling in space in 2036?))
Not yet but they are working on it.
((Has first contact with an alien race occurred?))
Not that I’m aware of.
Posted by John Titor on 02-25-2001 08:00 AM
((1) You say your machine has roughly a 60 year limit. Is it possible to go back 60 years and then another 60 years? ))
Yes, that is possible but the divergence grows exponentially as you move farther away from your worldline of origin. I could make 50-year jumps to go back and see what the world looked like 2000 years ago but there is a strong chance it would look nothing like what I expect. There are larger distortion units that are more accurate and have a larger window.
((2) Have the people of your time proved the "worldline theory?" If they have, is there any information you can share with is that proves it?))
The Many Worlds theory seems to wrap up very nicely into current string theory. Unfortunately, we have not solved string theory yet either but (n-10) seems to be the best working model we have in 2036. As you are probably aware, the “big equation” does not need the final solution in order to take advantage of the smaller parts that do work in the real world.
((3) Ever hear the story of Oedipus? To make a long sotry short, after being told he will kill his father and marry his mother he moves far away. On the road he accidentally killed his father and ended up marrying his mother. Thus, the prophecy is what caused him to fulfill it. You say you don't want to effect anything too much by giving out information, but you could drastically change this worldline just by talking about the war, or anything for that matter.))
I see your point but do you think Oedipus would not have taken those actions if he didn’t know the prophecy? I don’t believe that knowing a possible future makes it happen. You are capable of changing your worldline for the better right now. None of the things I have said will be a surprise. They were set in motion ten, twenty, even thirty years ago. Are you really surprised to find out that Iraq has nukes now or is that just BS to whip everyone up into accepting the next war?
((If you're interested in posting some more photos and (pending your decision) the video of your departure, I would be happy to display them on my site. I've only got 5 meg storage, but I'm not using it at the moment.))
I appreciate that. It looks like the previous issue has straightened itself out.
Posted by James Dvorak on 02-25-2001 01:00 PM
i cant spell too good, hehe. But someone asked john about AIDS and cancer in 2036 and he said no cure for aids, and Cancer that there was some progress. but havent you been listening to art bell lately John??? we are on the literal brink of finding cures, even if its not this year, we will still find cure in under 30 years. I also find it hard to believe that our planet would want to do time travel and than let anyone use it??? But youlll probbably say you are government or something. Dont you think government would be more concerned with getting other things taken care of than A time machine??? why you need an old ass computer from the 70s anyway????Im sorry you might be an actuall time traveler but no way in hell do i believe you without any proof. Heres a question maybe you can answer without "upseting " the time line... There was a show on Fox very recently presenting evidence that we didnt land on the moon, I really believe this beccause of evidence presented, now this wont prove to me that you are TmTrvlr, but Just tell me if we actually did or not. I really was hoping we would have found a way to live on other planets by 2036, also how about flying cars. you should know what GINGER "is", you knew it was some kind of mobile personal transit system, but you dont know exacts??? open minds people, open minds (dont trust this one!)
Posted by John Titor on 02-25-2001 03:54 PM
((John Titor ,i posted to you before and would like to let you know that i would love to come along for the ride to the future if you need a sidekick,i am able to fly hot air balloons,a good shot,physically strong and quick,smart on my feet in case a odd event occurs and I would not mind leaving this time to go to yours.))
I appreciate the offer but I’m not sure you would like the year 2036.
((There have been many movements in music...rock, disco, and hip hop are some of them. Though most people probably can't rifle out names of musical groups from 35 years ago, they probably would have a basic awareness of what musical influences prevailed at the time. So my question is...what is the NEXT big movement in music that will take place here in the US, specifically?))
I appreciate your frustration and quite a few people have asked me questions like this. The expected answer is that I don’t want to break my personal code of “time travel ethics”. The real answer is, I just don’t know. I was not prepared for the year 2001, I was prepared for 1975. I don’t suppose it would be very impressive if I told you Disco would be big until 1980.
((Am I getting this right? You load up all the people who want to go with you in the back of your Chevy pickup…))
Actually, the requests were rhetorical. No one is going back with me.
((…drive from Florida to Minnesota. Sell that truck in Minnesota, buy another truck older than 1975…)
Doesn’t have to be a truck but I get your point.
((…load everyone back in that truck, drive back to Florida and then depart back to the future. Sounds like it will be quite a sight to behold. If you can, swing by Ohio and give me a honk. Your welcome to stay at my place. ))
Thanks. One thing I do find interesting about time travel tech is the expectation that we can pretty much go anywhere at anytime. These systems are quite complicated and they do have limitations. Are you going to be around in 1975?
Posted by Javier Cortez on 02-25-2001 05:38 PM
I find it interesting how now, after all the deliberation of attempting to convince others of your story, you are now backing out.
Did someone here do it for you?
In the last few replies, you commented on not wanting to break your code of ethics. But as we have seen now for the past few months with you is that you have broken ethics to go out of your way of proving to us what you are.
Here is a sample of what was just said:
((The expected answer is that I don’t want to break my personal code of “time travel ethics”. The real answer is, I just don’t know. I was not prepared for the year 2001, I was prepared for 1975. I don’t suppose it would be very impressive if I told you Disco would be big until 1980.))
That above example not just shows how irresponsible you are, but how ignorant as a Time Traveler you are as well: “I just don’t know. I was not prepared for the year 2001.” Good choice, 2036.
And here, we see you backing out of a jam, with something like:
((Actually, the requests were rhetorical. No one is going back with me.))
Nice revision to your story, but you lied to everyone. Some people actually took your request seriously.
What, no public apology?
Don't you feel that you done a bad thing, making people believe you, only to tell them it's not true?
You mentioned you would take people back with you on more then one occasions. Did people think you sounded serious? YES. Did people believe you, YES.
Think about that...
Posted by James R.Quayle III on 02-25-2001 10:41 PM
It's not that one believes one truth,It is more like i leave my options open and I have learned from my experiences that anything can happen,but that is my life,not yours,I bet John is from somewhenelse,time to me is just like a distance to get to,sometimes we find a ride to where we never thought we were going,and when offered a chance to time travel why not?Peace to you javier and John Titor,James,And JOhn Titor I would like it in 2036,because if you knew of my life experiences ,anywhere ON earth is good,and I bet it can't be all that bad?Simplicity is good i was a good boy scout who can camp,and hike forever.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 02-26-2001 01:42 AM
((It's not that one believes one truth,It is more like i leave my options open and I have learned from my experiences that anything can happen)).
You responds in the beginning is neutral to either side. But towards the end you clearly contradict your self and side with John. Talk about not wanting to believe one truth.
Still waiting for you to answer John, and Pamela.
P.S. I meant no disrespect to you James, I just felt obligated to point out the truth, as what I am doing questioning John.
Btw, what kind of experiences have you had? If you don’t mind taking about them.[Edited by Mary Rowland on 02-26-2001 at 09:06 PM]
Posted by Angel Lynnn on 02-26-2001 04:14 AM
Can you tell us if reverse speech is used in the future for business or even pleasure?
Also, can you talk about earthquakes in California or Nevada?
Thanks, John, for starting this topic and sharing your time with us. We are really enjoying it and you!
Posted by Mel Reckling on 02-26-2001 08:13 AM
I will be around in 1975, I guess. That would be a very good year to miss for me. I do have a 1972 Porsche, but it hasn't been started in 15 years. Maybe if I could go back to 1985 when I last drove it I could do a few things different, not just with that car, but maybe buy some of that Microsoft stock.
Posted by Randy Empey on 02-26-2001 08:20 AM
I think the strongest arguement for time travel not being easy or possible at all is the greed factor.
Warping time and space takes lots of energy . .. making finding out if or how TT works hard . . . is this because of some accidental way the universe turned out, or is it a fundamental law written in by the Creator?
Any thoughts on that side of things, John T. or Javier?
Posted by Luis Gonzalez on 02-26-2001 09:16 AM
I would like to speak to you in private. Please email me at the following address
Posted by John Titor on 02-26-2001 03:39 PM
((Better then being a fanatic, who believes in people so blindly.))
fa.nat.ic (n.) A person possessed by an excessive zeal for an uncritical attachment to a cause or position.
((Hello John I was wondering if you could respond to my post, I was serious…))
If I didn’t get to something, please feel free to ask again. I’m going in order of the postings and trying to get to everything that seems worthwhile and/or productive.
((Many people asking about the dangers of the war are asking about cities being nuked. During school today I was thinking about this, and nuclear warfare doesn't seem to be the biggest form of fighting in the future.))
Nuclear war will be very effective at destroying an enemy’s economy and the people's will to fight.
((Other than the small countries, I doubt nuclear warheads are going to be shot from each end of the globe.))
I would caution against that. That’s exactly what “they” want you to think while they continue to develop smaller and more accurate MIRV’s. Have you ever seen a neutron bomb the size of a basketball?
(( John, you say one of the hardest things to do in 2036 is find clean water. You also say you only trust food you've grown. Is any of this a result of your experiences with biological warfare? Is biological warfare a major threat in this war you speak of?))
Yes and no. Yes, biological warfare and accidents do cause a great deal of problems but the lack of a working infrastructure also hinders the continuation of the food manufacturing you depend on now.
((This is definitely the least serious of my questions, but is there anymore background information you can give (What city you were born in, etc)? I understand if you can't but after this thread is over I may get a little bored and see if I can find any information on the John Titor of "today," assuming that's your real name. ))
Once I leave, I would not want any attention to come to my family here.
((I'm guessing the date of your return to the future is April 19th. Is this correct?))
That is a day to remember but I was thinking more along the lines of March 21.
((My mention of Joseph Campbell was a rebuttal to someone who claimed that your General story was un-original. In fact the most likely leader of a movement like the one you describe would most likely be a Farmer since being a Farmer would provide much of the scenario required.))
Throughout history, farmers have often been a target of oppression because they are absolutely necessary to civilization but too busy to defend themselves. If you push a farmer too far, they stop growing food and have nothing to do but hide in the woods and shoot back.
((My asking you if the mention of CERN going on-line and discovering this and that, was a prediction was a genuine question completely un-related to "making a Buck". I wondered if it was just a hint you were giving as to something that could be verified after the fact with little chance of you mentioning it having an effect on it.))
Please do not be offended by my “making a buck” remark. I say it with a wink to help other people form their questions. Yes, some very interesting things will be going on at CERN in the near future.
((For me what is interesting is the type of questions that are being asked, and the apparent hostility that someone like you can be subjected to for no "good" reason.))
Yes, I find that interesting too. Sometimes I wonder what people are really angry about and I have come to the conclusion that frustration is better directed at the messenger. But then again, that’s history.
((I'm sure even in 2036 there is a tendency to tease one's detractors if they make themselves available.))
I have no intention of teasing anyone but I do grow tired of the same cycle over and over again. Eventually, the people who do not like me or what I have to say (real or not) will win. I will either leave or grow tired of answering the same questions.
((John is "playing you" Javier. It's an old trick, if your most vociferous detractor continually puts on weak attacks; it takes attention away from the really challenging questions.))
Again, please do not confuse my inability to answer the same questions over and over with a desire to make someone upset. I gain nothing by angering Javier or making him look foolish.
((He knows "make a buck" and "more power to you", and "off the cuff".
He is unaware or dislikes "buy in" or "buy that"
Does that prove anything? not really. Given enough text you can profile him and make a good guess.))
II know my English isn’t perfect but I blame my parents for most of the phrases I pick up (wink). It’s different sometimes seeing them in print than hearing them. It took me quite a while to shake off “sock it to me baby”. “Cool” seems to be the longest lived phrase I’ve heard so far and “peace” seems to be making a comeback.
((What 82 page book written in England in 1884 is required reading for all physics students? I admit it's possible you may not know in 2036, but highly unlikely. The same reason that makes it so important for physics students would make it just as important to understanding Time travel. Secondly why is this little book so important. If he doesn't know this it lends more circumstantial evidence to your side. But he could ask someone and then how do you prove that?))
Well, I’m pretty sure it’s not the Principia and it looks more like something to do with Maxwell but to make your point, I did find this.
Just about anything can be looked up.
((How about this? Let John make a recording of himself saying he is from the future and whatever other part of his story he wants. We could submit that to voice stress analysis. Is that enough? no again, since a well trained person can beat a voice stress analysis by using self-hypnosis or having someone hypnotize them prior to recording. Again no proof.))
I’ve heard a tack in the shoe works. It throws off the baseline “no stress” readings. Also, if you speak slowly enough, you can beat those programs.
Posted by James R.Quayle III on 02-26-2001 04:42 PM
John Titor,what if something happens to your device to get back,let us say inoperable,would you then change the world by announcing warnings,and also what if you got a flat tire inbetwwen times would you have to pull over to fix it in a wrong time?
Posted by Lola Montez on 02-26-2001 04:47 PM
I congradulate you on your restraint and good humor in responding to some of the posters who are as tireless as an old turntable in playing the same old song. (I include myself in this group as I know I keep asking you specific questions regarding safe ground during the possible trouble ahead). I still have some questions you have not responded to but hate to ask again in the event you do not wish to respond or just have not made your way to them yet. Could you let me know which? I will wait to hit you with more until I know the status.
If any of you missed Dr. David Anderson on Art's show you should go to the archives and listen. It is about time distortion going on in New York.
Posted by Brad Brown on 02-26-2001 05:31 PM
John I'm courious. You've expressed a want to experience the world as it was. However you seem to spend a great amount of time talking about TT. Why aren't you traveling and telling us about your latest trip to the pyramids instead of talking about specifics you should be bored from in your awarness to them? Are the Great Pryamids still standing in 2036? If you wish to experience society as it was, admitting yourself to be a time traverler is counter-productive. How's communication around the world in 2036. Do you still have literature widely available? What's the latest book you've read that you were only able to hear about in your own time? Is new literature aslo so available? Is the english language begining to segment into sects and accents with less influence from trourists? Or is tourism still strong and thriving in 2036. You wanted questions not in relation to stock, here you go.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 02-26-2001 07:01 PM
Just 1 sentence is all I get for waiting for another 5 days? Even then, it's nothing more then some discombobulated definition in your own words. What dictionary did you use? Is it the dictionary you learned English in, in the future ?
Try Oxford next time.
Why don’t you give it up John, you know this little experiment of yours went more out of hand then you wanted it to go. Now look at you, you’re attempting to lay-low until your window of opportunity to leave… Am I right?
Try answering this, instead of something that was said almost 2 weeks ago.
I’m sure lots of people would like to hear you explaining your self. After all, I did expose some of your lies.
But then again, there are those here who are “fanatic” about your cause that they still believe your from the future. Quite sad isn’t it?
What do you say to something like that? Look at all these people, completely taking your word for it. Doesn’t that just do something for you? You can answer too Pamela if you wish.
Posted by John Titor on 02-26-2001 09:07 PM
((IS your sense of "timing" off, in new time environments? I've heard people who have "out-of-body-experiences" find that it sometimes takes a day or two to regain a sense of normalcy in their minute interactions with the physical world.))
No, my timing isn't off. I do however find myself stoping in mid-stride and paying extra attention to my environment when I forget "when" I am. When I was a child, my mother would tell me stories about angels. She told me that angels found it hard to communicate with man because man could remember his past but couldn’t see the future. Angels, acting as the eyes and servants of God, had no memory of the past but had infinite knowledge of the future. Although I am no angel, I often thought about that story after I left 2036. Besides that, I do get a lot of colds.
((John - You were born about halfway into this cycle. BTW, GenXers would be about 40-50 years old in 2036. How they doin'? Were they pretty resourceful scrappers?(Fighters/Survivors))
In my opinion, the Gen Xr’s ended up in two categories. There were the ones who had learned to be independent by breaking away from tradition and societies expectations and the others who had no idea how to take care of themselves and just wanted the trains to run on time. The ones in the first group feel very guilty about "letting" the world go to Hell and the ones in the second group are dead.
Posted by Craig Cuthbert on 02-26-2001 10:52 PM
John - I can understand that. Being from the end of the Boomer Generation myself, I can say that GenXers may feel that way (those who are left) though it always appeared to me that they were abandoned young by Boomer parents off doing "their own trip". GenXers were the original "latchkey kids".
I'll repeat this link, as I really enjoyed the book.
I hear their new book, forecasting the next 10 or 15 years, is also pretty interesting.
Short of holding seminars, is there anything else you'd like to do while you're here, with respect to your interaction with us?
Posted by James Dvorak on 02-27-2001 01:42 AM
can you tell me what year the police will stop busting people for smoking weed??? after the war right?? in 2015? do they start pushing for legalization earlier than the war???? this is the ****! Im still workin for the community though........................
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 02-27-2001 06:59 AM
John - about voice stress analysis... No, you can't "beat" a combination of voice stress and body language analysis. You can, under certain circumstances, beat a polygraph, but only if the examiner is very inexperienced. I've been through a few myself.
I suggest that you do your video tape of the departure. Here is why:
1) An impromtu video tape will give you an opportunity to say some things to us as a kind of "final farewell" which we can all observe. Then you can step into your time traveling truck and vanish for the camera. That will give us something to think about.
2) You will be gone from our time line, and we can examine the video tape, using voice stress and body language analysis to determine if you were being honest to us about your trip back to the future.
3) You do not have to worry about the ramifications of the tape because of time line divergence - and because of several things you've lead us to believe you here, will not be affected in the least - nor will your time line be affected in your time.
4) If there is any doubt in your story now (and there is apparently with Javier's continued chipping away at the story and your own attitude toward him) then you can clear it up with such a tape.
5) Some of us would really like to believe, have hope for, or even be shown that time travel is not only possible, but practical and already (somewhere/sometime) going on. You can prove it to me, beyond a shadow of doubt with a video tape.
Now... you've offered to do so. I have the resources to place said tape up online. When our web site comes back online we will have plenty of space to do so. (Some of you might be familiar with the site already - anomalies.net). In any case, we will be more than willing to put up all the photos, manual scans, video tapes and anything else you would be willing to show us. I would even be willing to fly to whatever place you want and film it myself, at my cost, as long as you give me a bit of a heads up.
(and for those of you wondering, NO I am NOT doing this for the government. I'm as curious as anyone else here, nothing more, nothing less. I'm not in this for money, I'm not in this for personal gain - except the knowledge that the "truth is out there")
John... you can reach me privately through my email address on this board. I urge you to do so, if not for yourself or us... for the future.
Posted by Pamela Moore on 02-27-2001 07:14 AM
To The Board:
Doc's site is still not fixed and I have no doubt in my mind that he will eventually move the pictures to his other site.
But in the meantime I have all of John's pictures and anyone who wants them can email me and I will send them to you.
My email is in my profile.
Also John and I have talked and anybody who wants to forward anything to John can do so through my email address and I will make sure that John recieves it.
I will do this as long as I am able.
Posted by Abe Figer on 02-27-2001 08:58 AM
hey I´m very interested in john titor story.. but I have some question for him......
what is going to happen to Mexico in 2035? is going to be safe going south after de war starts?..... depending on his answer i will give me an idea of how real his story is...
Posted by Luis Gonzalez on 02-27-2001 10:15 AM
John, email me...
Posted by John Titor on 02-27-2001 05:25 PM
((You say you were in the militia fighting the US Army. I would think that civilians would have a snowballs chance in hell of successfully fighting the military.))
You must realize that why people are fighting is more important that what they are fighting with. The conflict was not about taking and holding ground it was about order and rights. They were betting that people wanted security instead of freedom and they were wrong.
((What does this look like? Is it a stalemate with the resistance/militia hiding out until the cities are wiped out allowing them to surface?))
The cities were not isolated because of them; they were isolated because of us.
((You site the approximate number of cities and military bases intact before the nuclear attack. Are they ALL hit?))
Nuclear weapons and guidance systems are less than perfect. Most targets receive more than one warhead but some of them were more accurate than others. I would estimate the overall accuracy was around 60 to 70 percent.
((Three days walk from where? The nearest city? Again, though, what population makes a city a city and not a town?))
In my experience, a motivated starving person is only capable of walking about three days. The more distance you put between yourself and anyone who is likey to be hungry, the better.
((Does any one or any group stay neutral during all of these years of fighting?))
Some try to.
((Does anyone just lead a reasonably normal life during the civil war?))
((You say the civil war lasts from 2004 to 2008 and then the short big one in 2015. What do the years from 2008 to 2015 look like? How long does WWIII last.))
I’m not sure I said that exactly. By 2008, I would say the civil conflict is pretty much at everyone’s doorstep. Western instability during the conflict leads to the attack in 2015. WWIII is very short with a longer period of mop up.
((You mention the nature of Canadians but I don't think you mentioned the impact of all of this on that country. Would you?))
There’s not a great deal I know about Canada except to say they were pretty much in the same type of conflict. They did have the Dew Line you know.
((Oh yeah, one more thing that is rather haunting is your allusion to the position of women as being controversial and conservative in 2036. Yikes! What is that supposed to mean?))
It certainly isn’t disrespectful. I apologize if it sounded that way. It’s one of those areas I realize will be difficult to discuss because we may lack similar experiences. In 2036, there is not a desire to “have it all”. With factors such as the difficulty in conceiving and the decentralization of production and industry, there is not an unrealistic scramble to have a “career” and a family. Out of necessity and circumstance, family life has become more traditional. However, there are many families where the wife / mother is the main breadwinner and the husband / father remains “home” with the family. The difference is in the method of decision-making. People do not have children (if they are able) unless they can devote the required resources to maintain it.
Posted by Jeff Borgus on 02-27-2001 05:39 PM
(Actually, the requests were rhetorical. No one is going back with me.))
Just like your whole story is rhetorical.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 02-27-2001 10:28 PM
Many movies that take place in the future show an Earth under ruin, war and famine. You have been buying into that fear people have in some corner of their minds from the very start. Creating, what we have here a John Titor worship board. No longer a place to discuss views of Time Travel, and gain knowledge. More like a handout of knowledge. In other words John, you have become these people’s prophet. You are now deeply involved in their belief system.
My only problem with that is that it’s on a wide scale. Tell me something, is that why the civil war started? To many people take people like you and put them on pedestals? Lots of people can no longer think on their own, they depend solely now on what you have to say. How pathetic, and your future culture finds no flaw with prolonging it. Instead, they gave one of their Time Traveler (meaning you) a device to come to the past and exploit the chance to take and do as you and they see fit.
That’s very nice. You’ve managed to convince a lot of good people, honest sincere people. That your genuine, the real McCoy. That however, may be okay with you, but not by me, not by a long shot.
Someone once brought up the example of some of these people being sheep. At first that might have been an unfair presumption, but now that I think about it, it’s true. And you still haven’t commented on my request to answer my statements. What’s wrong? Why don’t you?
Let's face it John, I’m one of the very last ones you have not corrupted with your story. It has been your straightforward effort to say you are from the future, and convince others of it as well. But just look at you, look at how unprepared you were. The lies you were caught in. And trying to recover only makes you look phonier in my eyes.
I swear, I will expose you John. My passion and conviction in this matter is unquestionable. Your friend Pamela can attest to that.
People like you, who use this to benefit from unknowing people, make me sick. Time Travel is an evil means to get what you want; I wouldn’t be surprised if your world is Satanic.
The fight is not over between you and me John. Nor will it be over any time soon. I will continue to pursue in exposing you as a fraud, there is no doubt about that. I don’t fear you John, I do however fear a world that has followers like your fans. That only entices me more to continue the fight.
If others find that silly and funny, I feel sorry for you. You’ve lost your sense of passion for doing what’s right. You openly accept the flaws of this world, and succumb deeper to them. Creating what we have now, a delusional world solely dependent on everyone’s individual beliefs. That saddens me. Call me old fashion, but that kind of mentally is only asking for trouble. That’s the sort of mindset that causes wars. Confusion, uncertainty, fear in the truth.
But in the end, there is no escaping what you all are. In the end, we will all get judged, and see that instead of laughing at me, and thinking I was a nut job, you all should have known better. It’s like the Metaphor of the Ant and the Grasshopper. Just think about that.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 02-27-2001 11:45 PM
All very interesting, but one nuclear bomb hitting around Colorado would do the entire food belt in by the wind blowing. Russia's power plant went 1500 miles away because of the wind. I guess the wind blows here too. Now, how far does the Earth move in 36 years traveling along with the Milky Way Galaxy at 33 miles/second. Quite far, so how do you manage to not space travel? The Universe is always moving. From 1975, add another 25 + 36 years and around 61 years is where you went too. Now the Earth has even traveled further, I suggest you all look up at the Universe, a Supreme Being might just be praying for all of us on the Spaceship Planet Earth.
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 02-28-2001 01:30 AM
When you get a chance can you post an answer to my question regarding the “30 second” scenario that I asked about a week or so ago? Thanks.
I’ve also been wondering about how you have manage to overcome the simultaneity problem in maintaining common worldline references between yourself and the two micro-singularities that travel with you. As you know, bodies under acceleration lose their initial constant velocity worldline reference with respect to each other – the Twins Paradox. Given that you have a possible 2.5% divergence from your own worldline (5% on a roundtrip?)on a 60 year trip and the micro-singularities (each having their own worldline) are subject to the same divergence, how do you keep them in phase? Does the divergence extend into N-dimensions? Is the 2.5% the total error or is each dimension subject to the 2.5% divergence individually?
I understand that you’re a tech (a bus driver as it were) and not the physicist, but how did you manage to overcome the problem of gathering sufficient power to artificially create a micro-singularity in such a short time (sometime prior to 2036)? I believe that it would theoretically take the total energy output of the Sun since the time of Richard the Lionhearted (about a thousand years) to form one micro-singularity, let along two.
Posted by John Titor on 02-28-2001 05:55 AM
((When you get a chance can you post an answer to my question regarding the “30 second” scenario that I asked about a week or so ago? Thanks.))
Please take a look at page 18. If I didn't get to everything, please expand your question.
Posted by Bob Marz on 02-28-2001 06:17 AM
I haven't seen an answer to my issue concerning moral turpitude through action or inaction. Did I miss it?
Javier: You've worked yourself into a tizzy over John's spontaneous whim. He started this forum with a joke about coming back from the future with the old computer and noticed people taking him seriously so kept up the gag. I think he's done a great job, it's just for fun.
John has never been inflamatory, in fact he's maintained a good-natured witty sci-fi scenario, urging people to play along.
What gives the gag a nice dynamic impact is the fact that John stays in character and takes every question seriously, giving us realistic answers. ala Orson Welles War of the Worlds or Blair Witch Trial. The more John stays completely in character the better the experience for us.
Posted by John Titor on 02-28-2001 06:51 AM
In order to assist in where I am in the questions, I will post the page and person I left off with. It would also help if you could do the same when asking when I will get to yours. Since my time is growing short, I will be unable to answer questions that have already been asked in some form or another and I will make a note when I come across one.
Unfortunately, it has also come to my attention the proposed email system for sending out the pictures is not working out. Apparently, people on the receiving end of the requesting email are starting to have problems with their computers. They suspect it’s coming from the “asking” email. Before I leave, I do plan to send out a few more pages of the manual and a video of my departure. I’m sure a method of will be developed to do that.
Currently, I am on page 18 right before Rick’s questions.
Posted by Pamela Moore on 02-28-2001 09:13 AM
I am still getting some email inbetween the attacks. Anybody wishing to email John in private please use my email address and I will forward it to him. and send you a confirmation that your letter has been forwarded to John.
I delete your mail right afterwards. so if any attack happens to get past my security system your email will not be there for anybody to see it. several people have the pictures already. (keep them safe!)
If you can't get to my email please post on the board your desire for the pictures and I will make sure you recieve them.
Anybody wishing to forward a private letter to John, you don't have much time left.
while your at it...say Hello to the future! these pages(according to John) will be archived and posted on a web site in the future.
actually that is quite interesting..how would you prove to someone reading this in 2036 that you are really from 2001???
PEACE TO ALL!!
Posted by Javier Cortez on 02-28-2001 10:21 AM
Earth to Pamela,
Yeah, you’re gone. What happened to being skeptical? Hypocrisy I tell you. And that’s not an attack, that’s the truth.
If people do read these in the future, they’ll see how foolish you all were to fall for his story so easily. No wonder the future looks down on us, look at our culture, our attitudes. You have this blind faith in a man who you all know for only 3 months.
Why not have a dialogue with me Pamela, instead of just being his supporter.
Before you would state your own thoughts. But now, your completely at his disposal, and nod at whatever he says. And you find that normal? It appears more like brainwashing to me.
You know I won’t attack you, I will however tell you the truth. So accept my request, since you speak for John, you shouldn’t be afraid to answer for him as well.
I await you.
Posted by John Titor on 02-28-2001 11:14 AM
Actually, Pamela is quite quick to catch many possible discrepancies in what I’ve said over quite a few sites in the last few months. For example:
PAMELA ASKS: >1. What type of money system do you have on your world line? meaning how do you buy and sell things? Do you have the same type of money or do we have a cashless society? such as smart cards, credit cards or ID biochips.
I RESPOND: Its not very different than it is now. Yes, we have money and credit cards. However, like everything else, the monetary system is decentralized. Banking is based mostly around the community structure. There are no multinational banking or computerized economic systems..there are also no income taxes.
QUESTION ON THIS SITE: ((Is there an IRS and a need to keep a lot of receipts and paperwork around to justify yourself?))
I RESPOND: Yes, we pay taxes.. Sounds like you don’t enjoy keeping track of your personal income taxes. I don’t think anyone does.
MY RESPONSE TO PAMELLA: I had considered going into more detail about the tax system but I didn't have a great deal of time. Currently, I am watching my father go over all his taxes and he doesn't look like he's having a very good time. My comment referred to the collective misery I see around me during this time of year.
Posted by Bridget Talarico on 02-28-2001 11:23 AM
Oh John, who am I to say "nay", this guy's a nut?
But let me ask you one simple question: instead of sitting at your computer, why not present yourself to George W, proof in hand?
THAT would throw quite a monkey wrench into the government's coverup machine, don't you think?
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 02-28-2001 11:45 AM
Thanks for the answer to the original questions. Here are some follow-ups for you to ponder.
<<Q: What is the result of the duplicates arriving simultaneously at the same place?
A: Psychological confusion and a few fist fights.>>
John, I think that you missed the point here. The problem that needs to be addressed is what happens to the duplicates as they simultaneously arrive at virtually the exact same location. Given that their masses will occupy the same space, what prevents a naked singularity from forming? (Black holes seem to be the only constructs that can violate the Exclusion Principle. And unless the duplicates were drunk they shouldn’t be spinning <wink> - thus a naked singularity.)
<<Q: How long will it take for the loop to decay? Will it decay? Is it a loop?
A: The chances of hitting the precise worldline where all the other duplicates are arriving is almost zero. It's possible but increasingly less probable with each arriving duplicate. The divergence decays and the worldline is “less available” for new “yous” to arrive on.>>
It’s a nice creative answer, but it didn’t address the question. The question was is it a loop; will it decay and how long will it take to decay? Divergence won’t decay, unless you’re saying that the divergence decreases (which I don’t believe is what you were indicating). Its true that each duplicate has a decreasing probability of arriving on the same worldline – but its an infinite number of duplicates. Any subset of that infinity is simply a less intense infinity, but an infinity none-the-less. The implication is that an infinite number of duplicates will appear simultaneously. What prevents this from happening?
<<Q: What happens if the experimenter, upon seeing his duplicate, decides not to continue the experiment?
A: He can always leave the room on his own worldline or put a desk full of books in the position where the time machine is arriving every 30 seconds. That will probably trip the VGL system and stop the time machines from arriving.>>
Again, nice try on the answer. But these duplicates aren’t arriving every 30 seconds. They are all arriving simultaneously 30 seconds before the experiment begins apparently violating Causality if the experimenter decides to cancel the trip.
This question was a follow-up to your 2.5% worldline error problem. On your 60-year journey you have a problem if the error is 2.5% in N-dimensions. If your error is in the ‘t’ dimension you have a chance to arrive back home as early as 2034 and as late as 2038. If the error is cumulative for each leg you could arrive as early as 2032 and as late as 2040. Arrive too early and the boss won’t have a clue as to why you brought him a 1975 vintage computer. Arrive too late and your haven’t helped solve the problem in a timely (excuse the pun) manner.
You’re also faced again with the Twins Paradox. In this case the twin is you: The “you” in 2036 and 2001. Each of you is a body in motion and under acceleration (the velocity of Earth, the Solar System, Milky Way Galaxy and Vegan Local Group and the general expansion of the universe are not constant.) Moreover, the distance between each “you” is increasing at 54 km/sec. The 2036 Earth is approximately 60 billion kilometers from where it is today. The 2.5% divergence error is not constant. The longer you stay here in 2001 the greater the distance between the two Earths thus the degree of error increases. The physicists in 2036 aren’t able to help you as they don’t know where you are and as you aren’t a physicist you’re probably not going to be able to make the corrections from this end. How are you going to get home safely?
John, you’re actually doing a credible job of handling this thread. I personally don’t believe that you’re a time traveler but that’s not the point. I have to put some thought into asking these questions. SO, you make me think and that’s always good. Thank you.
Posted by John Titor on 02-28-2001 12:28 PM
I do enjoy the questions and I appreciate the interest.
I suppose there is a difference between a thought experiment and the real world. It appears we have our virtual laboratories confused and I’m not sure I understood all the rules to your experiment and then it occurred to me that in your position, this is all just a thought experiment anyway. I will try to be more literal in my explanation.
((In this experiment the traveler only goes 30 seconds into the past to appear in his lab. It seems that 30 seconds before his experiment was to begin he saw himself appear in the lab. There would now be two travelers and two time machines. It doesn't appear that it ends that simply as the "second" time traveler says that he saw a duplicate self appear in the lab thirty seconds before he started the trip. It would appear that its a time loop and an infinite number of duplicates see a duplicate self appear in the lab thirty seconds prior to the start of the trip. ))
I’m not positive but I don’t see anything that indicates the time traveler would remain in the same spot once he arrives. 30 seconds is almost long enough to get coffee in your thought experiment. If that were true, and they all kept moving, than the experiment could go on for quite a while until the planet filled with time travelers. You also stated, “it would appear” as a time loop. If it only appears that way, than the natural divergence may stop the experiment when three or four time travelers arrive and the others end up on different worldlines.
((The problem that needs to be addressed is what happens to the duplicates as they simultaneously arrive at virtually the exact same location.))
Again, you use the world virtually, which to me means not exactly the same spot. Under the laws of physics, I don’t personally know what happens if it were on exactly the same spot but I do know it’s possible. Under the operational limits of the distortion unit, as soon as the VGL sensors pick up an unexpected mass in the target worldline, it would shut down and drop off in a worldline where your experiment is not occurring.
((Given that their masses will occupy the same space, what prevents a naked singularity from forming?))
I see, now they are in the same space. I suppose that’s a possibility. If so, than the as soon as the experiment started, a singularity would form under the infinite mass and swallow the planet. Perhaps they tried this on Cygnus?
((It’s a nice creative answer, but it didn’t address the question. The question was is it a loop; will it decay and how long will it take to decay?))
Well, I think it's a nice creative question too. Under your example, the “loop” would terminate as soon as the singularity forms and would be constantly fed by all the arriving time travelers.
Thanks again, I’ll follow up on the rest in a bit.
Posted by John Titor on 02-28-2001 01:05 PM
After taking a quick shower and listening to the quiet hum of my archiving hard drives, I decided that Emmett and I may have made bad second impressions on each other. I find it ironic because it’s people like Emmett that will actually solve those physical issues and make it possible for people like me to go back in time and argue with them. So I hope, no hard feelings Emmett.
It also reminds me of a short story between a bicycle maker in the 1900s and a man who could fly faster than sound.
BICYCLE MAKER: Well Mr. Mach, if your plane can go faster than the speed of sound, how did you solve the compressibility problem that would tear your flimsy craft to pieces?
MR. MACH: First off, the aircraft are much more stable and made of metal instead of wood and fabric. Second, it is possible to pass the sound barrier by designing the wings and body to move the shock wave down the plane as you surpass the speed of sound.
BICYCLE MAKER: Really? Planes made of metal? Well, if your plane can fly faster than sound then why don’t you just fly to the moon?
MR. MACH: It doesn’t work that way. You need air to make the engine function.
BICYCLE MAKER: I see. Your plane can go faster than sound but needs air to function. That’s convenient and it all sounds like a penny-book fantasy to me.
MR. MACH: Perhaps… perhaps not
Posted by Javier Cortez on 02-28-2001 02:03 PM
Give me a break John, your so full of it. Your pathetic attempts to crawl out of a tight hole our becoming narrower and narrower to get passed these days. Not just are you being broken down, but being exposed as a fraud.
More discrepancies. Your a lair, you really didn't plan on taking anyone back with you. Yet people believed you. Still waiting for you to apologize to everyone.
And don't say your busy going in order trying to answer everyone’s questions. You just skipped the rest and went straight to the most current. How considerate you are. Others have been waiting for much longer time, and you found it convenient to seize the opportunity to answer something that would make you look good in the eyes of your followers.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 02-28-2001 02:15 PM
Not that I believe you, but would not the vintage computer from 1975 be bigger than the time machine to haul back to the future? It handles 3 people, personal computers were really not out then, only a very few people were trying to make a personal computer, and they only had kits to put together. I mean 4kB of memory is nothing like the current crop of computers with up to about 1gB of memory one can put in the computer. Just some thoughts about what you are saying? It does not fit quite right with me. If there was a War, then it seems reasonable to me that you were not even born until all of the Wars were over. That would make you about 21 years old from 2015 or just about 29 from 2008. It does not add up if millions of people died from these happenings. I just add things up logically, and from my prespective, the story does not seem real. Oh, well, we all have to do something with our time, I guess. I think I'll be 90 in 2036 and right now you appear to be younger than I am now and have not developed the critical thinking skills that come with age on Spaceship Earth.
Posted by David R Ferguson on 02-28-2001 02:29 PM
I have finally read all of the posts in this thread and I have come to one conclusion...it is definitely been more entertaining than anything currently on television, except, of cours, for the televised Illinois basketball games!
Thanks to everyone for your posts. It has certainly been very educational.
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 02-28-2001 02:58 PM
My friend, I have absolutely no hard feelings. To the contrary, this thread is quite enjoyable.
Posted by Pamela Moore on 02-28-2001 04:43 PM
HOLD ON JAVIER!!! IM COMING!!!!
I am grasping the tether on the front of
my outerspace suit.attached somewhere down there
to earth...Im pulling.....myself...............
right hand...over left hand...over right hand...
Im pulling myself into Earth's atmosphere...
a little further...a little further.....(hahhah)
Ok..Javier what kind of dialogue do you want to have?
No, I have not lost all my skeptism and you are
constantly acting on your own assumptions and fears.
I don't speak for John, I simply helped him out on a couple of questions he already had answered earlier.
Am I brainwashed? Of course not. That is silly!
I have talked to John for hours and hours about things.
and I know some things you don't. John is a highly intelligent man and he is very interesting to talk to.
People are not stupid, Javier. and you know I am not.
Can't you just enjoy the conversation in this thread?
it's probably not going to last much longer....pretty soon John will be gone and you won't have to worry about him anymore.(he'll either drop off of the board if he is fake, or go back to future if he is real.)
the truth may not possibly come until after he is gone.
I know you have a good heart. but you get a little carried away sometimes.
I have an email address you know if you want to talk further...
Posted by Angel Lynnn on 02-28-2001 07:10 PM
Are people using "reverse speech" in courts, etc. or even recreational?
Can you talk about earthquakes in California and Nevada?
Posted by Lola Montez on 02-28-2001 07:59 PM
What's reverse speech?
Posted by Javier Cortez on 02-28-2001 08:02 PM
No need to be sarcastic ya know, but thanks for finally answering one of my questions.
However, the dialog will mainly be question/answer. I said that, because it seemed to me that I was the only one talking. You weren’t responding to any of my questions. Neither was John.
And since your John’s little helper, you can assist him in answering for him. Make sense?
But since you said your only posting answers to questions already asked, I fail to see how you will be of any help to me and the rest.
Yes, John maybe smarter and more interesting then me, but that doesn’t make what I do know, any less important. Thanks for be little-ling me . Nonetheless, you know I can’t just stand idly by while he preaches and others bow at his feet. I can’t stand for that, nor will I allow it. Others must hear another side, not just his.
So if I am criticized as being afraid and acting on my own assumptions, I don’t care. I’m not here to win the best personal image award. I am here to speak the truth.
And you say your still skeptical; well actions speak louder then words. I guess we won’t find out all the truth, until she leaves. Will you be telling us more details about him, or will you conceal it still in fear of them finding out the whereabouts of his younger self?
Your taking quite a risk trusting someone with your secrets John. Didn’t your mom teach you to be weary of a pretty face?
Just the facts though…
Posted by Stephen McKay on 02-28-2001 09:24 PM
Why are you so defensive about this whole thread? I may be mistaken, or perhaps you have a different definition of preach, I don't remember John _ever_ preaching. Nor any of us "worshipping" him. The way I see it, John has made a claim which may be true or may not be. The possibility of it being true interests some of us, so we have questions. John's doing his best to answer us. Maybe he's full of it, but I enjoy science fiction as much as the next UFO nut.
Just because we ask questions, does not mean we are shouting from the rooftops "This man speaks the truth, he is the Messiah". It simply means we are willing to accept the possibility that he is telling the truth. If he is, great, we can learn from him and look back on these posts when we reach his time. If not, what have we lost? A few moment of time, which, in the grand scheme of things, amount to little.
My question for you is this: If John is a fraud, what do you personally stand to lose? What is the reason for your conviction? Whether it's the truth or not, it's interesting. For my part that's reason enough to continue. If you don't believe John, leave. If you're not interested, leave. It's your choice. What I think is important is that none of us are really sure whether John is telling us the truth or not, but we're willing to entertain the possibility.
An open mind is an important thing.
Posted by Pamela Moore on 02-28-2001 11:41 PM
"Yes, John maybe smarter and more interesting then me, but that doesn’t make what I do know, any less important. Thanks for be little-ling me ."
Im sorry you misinterpreted my words in this manner.
"And you say your still skeptical; well actions speak louder then words. I guess we won’t find out all the truth, until she leaves. Will you be telling us more details about him, or will you conceal it still in fear of them finding out the whereabouts of his younger self? "
I won't be doing or saying anything that could possibly jeopardize or bring harm to John or his family.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-01-2001 12:31 AM
What interests me is the need for time travel in the first place? I think by rational thinking that time travel is impossible. Do I care that people tell me to be open-minded? I am open-minded. What bothers me is that people will go through so much trouble to bother with a technology that will only occur in the very far future. I suggest that John talks to Dr. Fred Bell, who has traveled forward in time, according to him when he was a guest on the show, and that John tells him how they have solved the problem of disorientation from time travel. Now every thing is nifty with time travel, and there is no ill effect? I like fantasy as much as the next person, but I see no Civil War on the horizon. Only the people who would want to see a Civil War start actually see a Civil War on the horizon. My, if I were John, I buy a TV and a VCR player and take back the episodes of Star Wars. Try to transcend above this physical plane of existence, and you will see that the Force is actually a reality. Time-travel, well, its a grand idea, but like all ideas, when rational thinking is done on the subject instead of emotional turmoil, time-travel is so far into the future that as I the only one who can see that?
This leads to the freedom not to be influenced by the very type of people that always are seeking the wrong truths. People should look up at night. In the beginning there was nothing. How long can you have nothing? Forever! A unit of measurement has been invoked, call it forever. A yardstick, a ruler called forever. And time was just created. Then something was made out of the nothingness, being a potential, and here the Universe exists in God's Glory. God does not leave this chance.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-01-2001 12:32 AM
Stephen & Pamela,
I have a good responds for both of you. But it's passed 12 right now, and I have to get up early for work. Maybe during work, I will reply to you.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-01-2001 07:17 AM
Albert wrote:" All very interesting, but one nuclear bomb hitting around Colorado would do the entire food belt in by the wind blowing.
Russia's power plant went 1500 miles away because of the wind. I guess the wind blows here too. Now, how far does
the Earth move in 36 years traveling along with the Milky Way Galaxy at 33 miles/second. Quite far, so how do you
manage to not space travel? The Universe is always moving. From 1975, add another 25 + 36 years and around 61
years is where you went too. Now the Earth has even traveled further, I suggest you all look up at the Universe, a
Supreme Being might just be praying for all of us on the Spaceship Planet Earth."
Albert, for the record, our government does not push the "nuclear war survivability scenario" for a reason - they simply do not care. Anyone who builds a bomb shelter is considered a kook. I don't think they are kooks. I don't think anyone who believes in survival is a kook. Now, why I mention that is your "wind blows" theory. Yes, you're correct that the wind blows generally west to east and if a ground blast occurs there will indeed be fallout. However, understand a good number of nuclear weapons will be air burst weapons. There will still be fall out, but considerably less than if the weapons are ground burst. There will be a lot of little weapons that will miss their targets. I LIVE in Colorado, believe me I've studied the what-ifs carefully, for the sake of my family. There isn't an easy survival answer either. (Which is why I CARRY NBC protective gear with me everywhere I GO and my home is being slowly set up to protect us against nuclear fallout. Won't protect us against a direct strike, but even in my area, I think an atomic attack will be survivable.)
The moving earth situation has been discussed at length several times, and John's explanation was "gravity sensors". While I'm not aware of anything called a gravity sensor in this day and age, I wouldn't discount such a thing. Physics has a way of surprising us. Already we are sure (in physics) that there are such things as "gravity waves" - similar in fact, to radio, light or even x-rays - all of which are "waves". If this is correct, and I believe it is, then there will be very shortly a way to measure them, and therefore "sense" gravity waves. Doing calculations and measurements could compensate for the "movement through time" of a time ship.
Javier - Man you're obviously taking this way too seriously. Especially when you start insulting everyone on the list. Now, I don't usually take things personally, but you and I have discussed this offline already a couple of times. While I understand your reasoning for trying to prove John a fake time traveler (Or even if a real one, he shouldn't be here - if I understand your web page correctly) some of the comments about people being sheep, followers and "believers" is a little bit harsh.
Let me explain. I'm not a "believer" in the sense you're implying. That is, if John were a time traveler here and now, and was doing what he is doing (as a REAL TIME TRAVELER) then I would have no qualms about listening to his story.
In fact, I have no qualms about listening to it now. Regardless of whether he is real or not, the idea of time travel, science fiction and a ****ed good story is something I'm always "into".
In other words, what Pamela and some others have called "attacks" by you, might not, by you be considered such - but the rest of us do. Basically, you insult the intelligence of everyone on this list by saying we "are sheep". I personally am not, and I'm sure you weren't referring to me personally - however, even if I DID totally believe John, and was taken in by him, and believed he was telling the total truth - who are you to come rescue me?
People in this world have free will. This is something SO MANY Of us forget all to often. I protect my children and grandchildren from bad things, because they are young and might not have the wisdom of age to get themselves out of a situation. But, as adults, we have the free will to believe, or disbelieve whatever we wish.
An open mind is very important in science - something a lot of scientists even forget. Skeptism is important, but at the same time, if you do not have an open mind to what "may be" you will never get past the arrogance of your own mind and you might just miss the most important discovery of all time.
About Today's World:
In the place I work, we look at many different things, including intelligence reports, terrorism, war in other places and in general the "state of the world". I study many things, related and unrelated to my job, but most importantly we in the DoD and military tend to examine everything, even the smallest, insignificant incidents in the world, looking for those things that might ignite an all-out war.
If any one has been following global intelligence at all (and you can do as good a job as the CIA on your own, if you simply know where to look) you will see that in the United States an "awakening" of sorts has occured regarding our personal freedoms. There are these anti-gun nuts out there trying to ban guns - using the children as the catalyst. Without examining the reason we have for owning guns (and it isn't a last week thing, this is a HISTORICAL THING) then they do us all a disservice. America is on to them. We are on to those who would take our freedoms and we aren't going to let it happen without a fight. Hence the possibility of "civil war" DOES exist today. If you're not close to the subject you might not see it. Those of us who are protecting our freedoms DO SEE IT.
Russia has been "feeling it's oats" lately... doing attack runs on our ships, rattling their sabers (i.e. "We'll pull our support of the internation space station if you even THINK of continuing with National Missile Defense - just one example). Russia has not disassembled several nukes they said they did. Satellites show it. They just move them now. China has linked up with Iraq - assisting them in repairing their weapons systems - hence the attacks recently on Baghdad.
There are reports of Cubans, Chinese and perhaps North Koreans in and around the Sonora desert (think about this to understand what it means - basically, that is our weakest border. If *I* were going to put a force against america, I'd come in that way).
These are just SOME of the little things. We have a kind of unrest in America now. It could very well lead to a civil war of sorts.
Russia, China, N. Korea, Cuba, Iraq, Iran, France - and you can add quite a few others to this list - would just love to see America on her knees and will do whatever it is they can to help us down there. NEVER EVER UNDERESTIMATE enemies - especially FORMER enemies (like Russia).
What I am trying to say, without being able to do so in a short note, is that even if John is "fake" his scenarios are absolutely POSSIBLE and even PROBABLE at this point in our time line. Those of us who spend time checking intelligence reports can CONFIRM his social theories about "what might be".
In short, even if John is fake - his possibile future is accurate for us, even now. I hope he (and I) are wrong, and I hope it won't come to a civil war in this country, but I have been seeing it coming for a few years now. The thing with Russia and nuclear war - well... it is so much more a possibility NOW than it was in the Cold War that *I* am considering building that bomb shelter once again.
Posted by Angel Lynnn on 03-01-2001 08:06 AM
Some employers are using this to help them with hiring employees. They record the interviewee talking then they reverse thier speech to see if they were telling the truth, etc. Whatever comes out in reverse is what was on the persons mind while speaking.
I'm curious if they are using reverse speech in courts etc. in the future. Maybe it will be a good thing to get into and learn more about.
Angel Lynnn[Edited by Mary Rowland on 03-01-2001 at 03:10 PM]
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-01-2001 08:24 AM
Well Rick, you seem to have a passionate belief in something as well. Yet you blame me for having the same zest. You accuse me of being harsh; yeah maybe I was just a tad. But you call these people who want to take away the second amendment “nuts,” how do you think they will feel about you saying that? So I see it as something one in the same.
I am only trying to get the message out that we shouldn’t give our selves to easily to someone claiming to know the truth. I want freedom too, I’d hate for it to be taken away. That’s why I’m working towards not having that future.
Except my way, no one seems to understand. They call me crazy or going to far. Perhaps, but if you’ve gone through the things I have, you’d also protest. You’d want to make sure it doesn’t happen to anyone else.
As for everyone being sheep’s, I didn’t mean you. I meant those that stick to John like glue who can’t see another side but his. Forgive me if I offended you, I can get pretty worked up in my campaign.
You sound like your new here. Why don’t you visit my site first? I think that’s probably the best way I can answer your questions. Learn a little about my cause, and me and if you still have questions I’ll be more then happy to answer them. Critical or not, I don’t run away from questions.
Like I said before, I respect you for keeping what John told you in confidence secret. I would do the same. Nor would I want his younger self in a government facility being tested on. Because I know the feeling of being exploited, and no body deserves that fate.
If there is anything I hate more then liars, are people who take advantage of others. People who exploit those to gain an advantage in some hidden goal. Makes me sick…
Hence my hatred towards Time Travel, and Time Travelers.
Someone’s got to do something. Who here has the guts to stand up for justice in the matter of temporal violators?
I volunteer, for as long the threat shall exist.
Javier Cortez[Edited by Javier Cortez on 03-01-2001 at 08:30 AM]
Posted by Lola Montez on 03-01-2001 09:19 AM
I did check out your website and find it funny that you are possibly the only one on this board who claims to BELIEVE in time travel wholeheartedly yet you are the one who spends all of his board time trying to convince us sheep that John is a fraud. You may be the only one who isn't skeptical. You are truly the only fanatic, so far, on this board. John has hooked you good. The rest of us keep an open mind (something you should consider), learn what we can and have a good time in the process. You seem on the point of a nervous breakdown. I have also considered the possibility that you just want as much attention as possible and are jealous of the position John holds on the board. This stance gets you more feedback than you would otherwise get. This may be a subliminal motive. Isn't there something else you want to do here just in case time travel is as real as you think it is?
I'll take a fraudulant time traveller over an evangelist anyday.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-01-2001 09:58 AM
Your last post smells like revenge to me. This must be for what I said to you last time. Sorry, but it was the truth. And people say I'm harsh and hostile. I think you just took that title away from me.
I don't care about the attention, like I said before I can care less what others think about me. And I have no subliminal motive, because that would go against everything I stand for.
Since my birth I have gone through experiences that cannot be explained by psychologist. Ever see “The Sixth Sense.” Notice how angry he gets and writes those hateful words. Well maybe you wouldn’t think it’s so funny if you stand on the opposite end of something like that.
And as for me being jealous of John, that’s not likely. Why would I be jealous of a Time Traveler? I hate Time Travelers. And despite all his intelligence and fans, I still manage to out wit him now and then, and post questions that he can’t answer. I’m very happy being who I am . Even though the visions and manifestations get out of hand at times, I’m fortunate to have this life, a good family and friends.
Posted by John Titor on 03-01-2001 11:31 AM
BOB (from 18):
I must preface the following with a bit of melodrama. I feel a bit unqualified to answer the next few questions for the following reason. The way you and I look at life and death and its relative value is radically different. As any other soldier can tell you, once you watch a man’s arm come off from a bullet you just fired or have been close enough to feel someone’s last breath on your face, it changes you. I can only describe it in two distinct waves. The first feeling is power. You won when it counted and survived. All the personal shortcomings and faults you’ve carried with you your whole life just melt away in a savage euphoria. If there’s time to think about it, the next wave comes shortly after and is underlined by overwelming guilt. You just killed someone and now God might be ticked off. Fortunately, the second feeling goes away quickly when the shooting starts again and gets shorter and shorter after every battle. After all, why would God put you in this situation? The point is, I personally do not like going through that cycle and the decisions I make about life and death might not be the ones you would expect me to make.
((How come it doesn't bother you that people may die through your inaction yet you find it "morally wrong" that you might affect lives by active involvement?))
I'm not sure I said it didn’t bother me, I only stated I won’t interfere on purpose. Again I refer to a historical example. Before Pearl Harbor was attacked in 1941, a small group of US soldiers were experimenting with a new technology called RADAR. As the Japanese planes were flying toward the island, they actually picked them up in time to thwart the surprise attack. Unfortunately, they were unfamiliar with the equipment and figured it wasn’t working correctly. As you are aware, the ruthlessness of the Japanese “sneak” attack galvanized the US people into entering WWII.
As a time traveler it would be easy for me to take a short hike up that hill where the RADAR operators were and point out to them that indeed the equipment was working just fine and they should probably call it in. Assuming they believed me, it is arguable that my lone single action could start a chain of events that would allow the US to meet the Japanese planes and stop them from attacking the battleships. As a result, the US people would still be angry but not motivated to enter the war fully since the Japanese were not a precieved threat. Thus, you don’t begin research on the atomic bomb until well after Hitler has already dropped a couple on London.
I could save thousands of men on the Arizona at the cost of millions in London. I just don’t know how one life will affect another. However, if I were standing next to a soldier who was about to be shot by a passing Japanese plane, I would push him to safety. I realize this is inconsistent on a small scale but I am tired of watching people die in front of me. If there is a price to pay for that than so be it.
((Isn't it just as morally wrong to affect lives through inaction as it is through action? Hint: The answer is YES.))
Why are you concerned about what I might do to corrupt your worldline when you have no problem letting other people do it around you every day? Do you blame yourself for not taking any action right now to “save” people living on your streets or suffering from poverty and disease? Besides, how exactly would you propose I decide who to tell and who not to tell? (provided I knew anything at all).
((Your immediate decision, in itself, is its own authority.))
What God judges about my decision is the only authority. Again, all the things you claim I can do you are capable of also.
((If good and evil achieve a balance in the larger picture, as you suspect, and all life is "God" experiencing physical manifestation, the question of you being required to decide who lives or dies is moot.))
It’s not moot to me. To tell you the truth, I’m afraid. I don’t want the responsibility of being expected to know who lives and who dies. I know it would change me for the worse. Besides, how can you be sure my “inaction” now isn’t a result of something I’ve already screwed up and I’m trying to fix it? Javier might be right after all. Thanks for the good questions.
I am on Lola’s question at the top of 19.
Posted by Stephen McKay on 03-01-2001 05:23 PM
I've been following this thread from the start, but only posted once or twice. I had a read of your site. Let me see if I can get this straight - It's not so much that you don't believe John is a Time Traveller, you just wish to uncover his secret agenda? I don't mean to sound sarcastic, from what I read on your site you seem to believe in Time Travel, you're just not a fan of it.
I'll make sure that this is where you're coming from before I comment on it...
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-01-2001 07:49 PM
Stephen, or do you prefer Steve?
Yes, I do strongly believe in time travel. And it's not so much that I believe John is a time traveler as well, but yes I like uncovering people's lies when they make grand accusations like that. So far, I have to say John is very clever. But personally I don't like Time Travelers, so I can't be like you or the rest and listen to him.
Basically like I said, I'm a paradox. My way of thinking may at times be inconsistent, but that's how I have always been. It's my curse. To believe in something, and experience it first hand, and to then shake it off and say it's not real.
Sorta like a double personality, but not really. But I'm not crazy , I can however get really angry at times.
I guess I’m just following in the footsteps of my great great great great great great great great ancestor. I’m someone with conviction, just how he was. And if it weren’t for him, there would be no Mexico. Not that he was a good man, and not that he was a bad man either. He was a man with great conviction.
I try and do as I see morally right with my conviction. And I always choose integrity above all else.
Posted by Daniel Kirkbride on 03-01-2001 09:42 PM
I am curious as to what drives you to so passionately need to “save” people from what they want. To over simplify things for the sake of brevity, some are following this thread in the pursuit of entertainment and their own curiosity, and others are willing to buy whatever snake oil is closest at hand to make their lives more interesting. Exploring possibilities and boundaries is both healthy and fun. On the occasion that it becomes unhealthy and obsessive, well that’s just natural selection. At least in this situation those more prone to get carried away are free to choose their own poison in whatever dose they see fit. You yourself being a perfect example. Besides, if everything john says is absolutely true, what harm has been done? Any changes in this particular world line are specific and inevitable and alterations are only alterations to those with the perspective of light cones dipped a couple of degrees off the beaten path. For those naturally in our specific world line the only change made is the change that was going to be made anyway. For john any change does not affect his own world line for the same reasons. The only change is in the degree of difference between these two lines, which is only evident from an outside perspective, but that variance is absolute. In short, it is possible to go back in time and kill you parents, but only by traveling to the world line where that is what happens. You can then decide out of remorse to go back and kill yourself to save your parents, but only by going to the world line where you do that. However this does not change the world line where you successfully commit parricide, because in that line they did die. Future and past within a specific world line is absolute. Time travel merely grants the traveler the unique ability to recognize variances between world lines. Therefore, any changes to our world line are actually not really changes, because our tomorrow will be what it is going to be and will not change when looking at it from the perspective of the day after tomorrow. So no matter how insidious or innocuous johns “secret agenda” is, he cannot affect any changes that he is not going to affect anyway. It’s a battle that can’t be won because in our future it already has or has not been. I know this all sounds a little convoluted, but the mathematics behind it all are actually rather simple. Which brings me to a question for John.
I don’t mean to suggest that I accept any of what you claim, but I do have a technical question. Are the singularities in your machine supposed to be offsetting the light cones of particles within it’s sphere of influence allowing the world lines of these particles to appear to loop form the perspective of particles outside the effected area? I don’t mean to insult you by spelling out the obvious to you so basically, but that seems the most obvious need of a singularity. If so, how can you account for generating a gravity well deep enough to create such a disparity between light cones without sucking the planet through the eye of a needle? Also, this requires motion through the space immediately influenced by the mass, yet you claim travel is accomplished while the traveler is stationary. I look forward to your response….
Posted by Stephen McKay on 03-01-2001 10:02 PM
Probably prefer Steve, but it doesn't really bother me. As far as I can see John is not making accusations but claims. I also think it is important to uncover deception, but I'm not sure what makes you so sure that John is lying.
He may slip up, but he's only human, as are we all. I just don't think the point lies in whether or not John is from the future. He's made his claim and unfortunately there is no proof either way. As much as you may believe it, I don't think you can use his posts to disprove his claims, nor can they be used to prove them.
The point is that what he says is fascinating. Millions of people go to see psychics and fortune tellers, not because they believe they are seers and everything they say is true, but because they are curious. I think that is the same attitude of most people asking questions of John. If John did tell us of a company whose worth jumps drastically in the next few years, I honestly doubt that anyone on this thread would invest their savings in that company.
They're not devoting their lives to John's words, they're just interested. As I said earlier, if John's telling the truth, then we all get a sneak peek and preparation for the future; if not, then all we get is an entertaining story. If we read this thread in that light, then we have nothing to lose.
Posted by Michael E. Hendrickson on 03-01-2001 10:32 PM
Regarding your 2-21-01 comments on my first post,i.e.,
that I should view the video "Waco,The Rules Of Engagement" to get a better understanding and appreciation(I suppose)for federal law enforcement personnel acting criminally beyond the pale. And ,you asked rhetorically,( I may be paraphrasing somewhat) "if the allegations made in this piece were proven to be true, what would you hope would happen, nothing?"
My answer to that is that if these allegations were proven to be true I would not have hope, but rather every confidence that our criminal justice system would prosecute and convict whoever the criminal perpetrators turned out to be, whether federal cops, or otherwise(thereby obviating the need for citizen uprisings).
The ATF,followed by the FBI, clearly blundered at
Waco, causing the needless deaths of some 80 of our citizenry. However, to charge these federal officers
with criminal violations of the law either directly or
impliedly as is done in this video, simply doesn't accord with the real facts. Actually, there's some evidence now
to suggest that not only the FBI, but other federal as well as state and local law enforcement agencies have learned something from the Waco tragedy, and will take great care not to repeat it.
This, of course, goes directly against your predicted scenario for the next 11 years, which posits a series of
Waco type events crescendoing ,finally, in a full blown civil war, with honest citizenry from the heartland (with shotguns, I suppose) battling the evil forces of our federal government
Baloney! This is the typical paranoid militiaman mentality which manifests itself often in your writings,in
references to federal policemen conducting illegal searches
and engaging in other depredations against innocent
citizens. I guess all these things happen after our Constitution is suspended, and our republlican form of
democratic government, now 225 years old, all comes crashing
down in less than a dozen years, under your projected scenario. More nonsense.
Perhaps, your mentor and guide is that goofball from West Virginia (I can't recall his name)who has written and sold a militiaman's manual of sorts,and which I think makes many of the same kinds of predictions which you have been making. I know that I previously wrote that I thought,
perhaps, the inspiration for your story of our near future was a science fiction novel. However, now that I've given the matter some further thought,I beleve a good part of
it may come from this militiaman's manual. MH
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-01-2001 11:43 PM
I can save you all a bunch of rhetoric. It's a matter of principal that drives me.
I don't believe John is a Time Traveler. It's the principal behind it all that motivates me to question him though. It's what makes my blood boil; it's my outlet to speak out. And like I said before, maybe if you've gone through what I have, you'd also want to protest Time Travel.
Time Travel = Exploitation
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-01-2001 11:45 PM
I'll be gone soon. I really do not have time for this. First of all, to Rick, everyone wants to protect their family. The reason I can not buy into this is: if John is making up a story, it is a very wrong thing to do. The interests of the day are the same ones from back in the '50s. People were building bomb shelters, and by the 1960's, I was there, everyone thought that no one would survive a nuclear war. It is self-evident. The US alone has more nuclear weapons that would blow up this Planet a 100 times over. I had 32 nuclear missiles aimed at me every second of every minute of every hour of every day for the thirty years this Cold War was going on. By the 1970's smiling Pres. Jimmy Carter said, "Its MAD", Mutual Assured Destruction. If we are to have a War, we will not stop until everything is utterly completely destroyed for we can not win a Nuclear War. Carl Sagan came out in the 1980's and said if too many nuclear missiles are released in even a limited nuclear war that it would cause a nuclear winter. If anyone survived, there would be no food, and like in the past when the dinasours disappeared, humans would just die off. No one wins in a Nuclear War. In the 1980's Pres. Reagan said exactly that, "If you launch, we launch, if we launch, you launch". "NO ONE WINS". Everyone dies. We will start Star Wars, to protect ourselves. Of course Star Wars the movie was out in 1980 and told us about something new, a new way of looking at things, yes, the Force. Use the Force. What do you think people have been doing? It commonly referred to as a Relaxation Response Method. You block out negative thoughts coming into your head, by conscious effort, and say something like "Cancel, cancel." This takes practice and effort to reprogram your brain. What we have now in the US is people who do not know these techniques. We have been doing this since about 1985. Star Wars Reagan began a process that nuclear weapons would be reduced. Now in the 1990's, Saddem was not going to get by with his "Naked Agression" and thats exactly what Pres. Bush meant. Now Pres. Clinton signed an Accidental Nuclear Release Treaty with Pres. Boris Yelstein. If terrorists get ahold of a nuclear device, we will call first, to avoid an all out exchange of nuclear missiles. Some in the US, as some in Russia, think a Nuclear War is winable, IT IS NOT. This has been proven time and time again. Yet minor countries like North Korea or major countries like China or India or Pakistan want to continue on with developing longer ranged nuclear missiles. They already have them. The point is the SDI defense, making nuclear missiles obsolete. How? That's easy. It's still the same with the US. We have more nuclear weapons than Russia. If anyone launches a all out War, the US will literally destroy this entire Planet. AND WE MEAN IT. We have lived it, so when someone comes and says I am from the future, and there is a Nuclear War and a Civil War, I say "Bull". Every country in this world knows that the US will destroy this entire Planet if it needs too. There will not be a limited Nuclear War in my estimation. Having all lived through this 50 years of crap, makes us not be interested by annoying people claiming this or that after having a Cold War with Russian leaders. We are not amused at this type of behavior. This will not cause a Civil War, or a Nuclear War, got it.
Posted by John Titor on 03-02-2001 05:46 AM
((Are the singularities in your machine supposed to be offsetting the light cones of particles within it’s sphere of influence allowing the world lines of these particles to appear to loop form the perspective of particles outside the effected area?))
No, that’s not how it works. The singularities are used to manipulate gravity around the observer. The singularities do not interact with any matter except the electrons that are injected onto its event horizon. The hazardous areas of gravity are quite small and exist only around the inner singularity ring and another area created in the gravity sinusoid outside the vehicle.
((I don’t mean to insult you by spelling out the obvious to you so basically, but that seems the most obvious need of a singularity.))
No insult taken. I would imagine we both agree that standing behind an operating jet engine is an unhealthy thing to do also.
((If so, how can you account for generating a gravity well deep enough to create such a disparity between light cones without sucking the planet through the eye of a needle?))
The gravity well created by the singularities is not that large. The portion of the field that is felt by the operator is about the equivalent of 2 Gs. I would urge you to examine a Penrose diagram for a Kerr black hole. As you are probably aware, the singularity is donut shaped and exhibits two event horizons. The singularities are used to “simulate” a path through the center of one of these singularities which is what takes the observer to an alternate worldline. Earlier in the thread I did go into this in a bit more detail.
((Also, this requires motion through the space immediately influenced by the mass, yet you claim travel is accomplished while the traveler is stationary.))
The unit must be stationary during operation due to the sensitivity of the gravity sensors. Any motion with an acceleration component would throw the gravity measurement from the signularities off.
Posted by Joe Applebaum on 03-02-2001 06:12 AM
I'm new and I didn't get a chance to read every post up to this point, so I'm sorry if my questions are repeats.
1. Could you explain your theory about worldlines? Are there
infinite worldlines? Are all worldlines separate or
connected to each other in some way?
2. Where did you attend High school and what year did you
graduate? Was it difficult?
3. What college did you attend, what year did you graduate?
Would you estimate that your college life was similar to
ours in our worldline?
4. Hypothetically: If you fell in love with someone here
(lets say Pamela) and you took her "back to the future" with you in your timex machine, wouldn't that act upset both of our worldlines especiall if she were pregnant? Or all of the worldlines,assuming time travel is possible? Conversly, If you were gay and you took a gay man back with you, would that disrupt the worldlines less, assuming the both you could not bear offspring.
5. Have you had a chance to watch a movie here that you had
already seen in your 2036 wordline? If so, did they have
the same endings?
Thank You, looking foward to your replies.
Posted by Bob Marz on 03-02-2001 06:45 AM
John: Thanks for your response. I understand the dilemma and paradoxes involved in the moral questions. I'm still not convinced, though, that of the two basic choices of involvement/noninvolvement when faced with an immediate moral dilemma, you find inaction okay but action (active intervention) suspect. I don't see why you don't regard them equally.
Example: I'm at a blind intersection and I see a bus barreling down on a man who's crossing the street. Would God condone me staying out of it because I feared the moral ramifications of the myriad future scenarios? This kind of second-guessing would prevent any immediate action. Lifeguards, firemen and cops would be rendered obsolete. With such a standard I could leave a kitten up a tree, a wandering child outside on a cold night, a blind woman headfirst in a snowbank, on and on, because I really don't know what affect these living beings will have on future events.
How can a God expect you to be omniscient, that's His job. Since you're not omniscient you're not responsible, which is what I meant by "moot."
There are an infinite amount of variables. Therefore the Pearl Harbor scenario is ambiguous. You don't know that involvement of a timetraveller would prevent a nation's motivation. Or that it wouldn't. Or that your inaction is any more moral than involvement.
What concerns me is that your reasoning endorses any sort of noninvolvement in day-to-day events - yes, even cowardice. All the lives that Schindler saved, for example? He should have simply stayed out of it because one of their descendants might someday become a second Hitler? I'm sure those he saved would have a different opinion.
I need to think about this more.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-02-2001 08:01 AM
Javier: [Well Rick, you seem to have a passionate belief in something as well. Yet you blame me for having the same zest. You accuse me of being harsh; yeah maybe I was just a tad. But you call these people who want to take away the second amendment “nuts,” how do you think they will feel about you saying that? So I see it as something one in the same. ]
Javier, I do have a passionate belief in something - the Constitution. But, you misunderstand a bit. I'm not BLAMING anyone for anything. Let me see if I can say this simply... we all want to learn something. By you (or anyone) denying outright the existence of something - or attacking it directly as a "bad thing" without listening to both sides, you deny the chance for observation, and therefore, learning. Nothing against your methods, but, to put the problem into the perspective that "this is simply wrong" without back up justification for it being wrong - other than your own perception (which some of us might not understand) makes it hard for anyone to follow the story. I just have a problem with anyone lumping EVERYONE that doesn't have the same beliefs as that person (doing the 'lumping'), in the same category.
As for your example of my calling the anti-gun people "nuts" - it isn't the same thing. We do not know the "history of time travel" but we DO know the history of Europe and America and that many, many times history has shown that tyrants take arms from the people to keep themselves in power. This has been repeated over and over throughout history. Our history, our time line. So, I could care less if they are "upset" by me calling them nuts. They are, plain and simple, ignorant people who do not know or understand their own history - and who use emotionalism to take something away. They are wrong and by my defination they are nuts. You are calling everyone sheep who are going along with the story line here, because they are curious, wish to learn, understand or perhaps even believe that there is some truth to the story. There is nothing wrong with someone following along or playing along with the story, it certainly does not make them sheep.
The difference is, we do not know for certain Time Travelers can affect the world time line of ourselves. If they can and do, we WOULDN'T KNOW IT! If, as in John's example, he goes up the hill and helps the Radar folks (and I'm very familiar with not only this particular story, I'm familiar with various historical changes that MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED because I've written a paper on that VERY subject many years ago in college) - then there might have been changes that would have prevented us from entering the war, developing the bomb before Hitler and perhaps we would all be speaking German today. So if that happened because of a time traveler... would we know it? How do we know that someone DIDN'T interfere already ALLOWING US TO WIN THE WAR? We do not know this.
Michael E. Hendrickson: Just a couple quick comments, because I am not sure I understand where you're coming from. Apparently you have a problem with "militia" people. I'll tell you this from my point of view, with 26 years of military and goverment service, having sworn to protect and defend the Constitution. I have been on both sides of this fence. The Constitution is first. Before anything else. Militia people - those who fancy themselves as protectors of the Constitution - are. They are very keen on what is going on in the world today. They will be backed up by military members should a "civil war" ever occur in this country. The military will protect the Constitution first. You see, the government is by, of and for the people - meaning that people run it. People are part of this country and people are corruptable, regardless of your belief that they aren't.
In the past six months, several illegal raids by the BATF have occurred in Mesa, Arizon. I will give you the opportunity to look up the information yourself, because you won't find it in the normal media. But you will find that people like the Right to Keep and Bear Arms organizations have been tracking these things. So, the government, run by people who make mistakes DO MAKE MISTAKES. And they need to get their act together before a lot more people become aware of their mistakes. I don't care if you're anti-gun or not, that's fine. But if you are (not you personally, but "you" in the generic sense) then you are unaware of the GOOD that guns can do - or simply do not care (this is not directed at you Michael, but the general anti-gun people who say things similar to what you did).
And for the record - just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean people ARE NOT OUT TO GET YOU! Remember that. A little paranoia goes a long way to keeping people honest. That is a fact. In my current position, if I WEREN'T paranoid, I couldn't get my job done!!!!!!!!!!!!
Albert Cattoir: Albert, I'm not sure if you were trying to teach me something or not. You didn't tell me anything I did not already know and understand. Let me tell you something... I have lived in Detroit Michigan, Oklahoma City, Washington, DC and Colorado Springs - among other places. All of those places had dozens of nuclear warheads pointed at them during the cold war. Some STILL have nukes aimed at them (specifically where I live now, at NORAD. So, like you I've lived under that shroud as well.
I was there with Reagan and Bush. I wear a belt buckle George H. W. Bush gave me just prior to his inaguration - not that it has bearing on this conversation, but it shows at least to me and my family that I've been there through some of the most important moments of history in the 20th century. I was there when the wall fell. I was there when the Iranian rescue mission failed. I was there, and shot at several times, during the contra days in the late '70s. I understand and fully aggree with the old SDI projects, and now NMD. That's my job... I want it to succeed and work. I would love nothing more than to see nuclear weapons become an obselete, even archane and useless weapon.
So, please do not assume that because you were there, the rest of us were not. As to your last comments....[There will not be a limited Nuclear War in my estimation. Having all lived through this 50 years of crap, makes us not be interested by annoying people claiming this or that after having a Cold War with Russian leaders. We are not amused at this type of behavior. This will not cause a Civil War, or a Nuclear War, got it.]
In your estimation - opinion, there will not. In MY estimation - it CAN happen and will if the opportunity presents itself to those who wish to see American fall.
Denial, however, is a symptom from which we all suffer from time to time. We do not want to see bad things come to pass and therefore deny it can possibly happen. Civil war can be caused by many things. In our country - a place considered by us Americans to be the best place in the world to live, it hasn't happened since the 1870s... a barbaric time in history. Now, we believe we are above that. I hope we are. However, look around you. Examine the distrust people have for a growingly powerful government that can arrest you for even THINKING bad thoughts today. The so-called "Hate Crimes" bills they keep trying to pass are a good example. Who cares what you and I think about each other, or someone else? Only those who feel "threatened" by our thoughts. Why should I bow down to someone who believes I SHOULD NOT THINK A CERTAIN WAY? Civil war is not only POSSIBLE in this country, if trends in social behavior continue, and government continues to grow at an exponential rate, taking more and more of YOUR MONEY then more and more people will become dissatisfied.
Limited nuclear war is NOT impossible and under some circumstances, very probable. You seem to forget that our national policy is to use nuclear weapons if attacked by anyone with any weapons of mass destruction. That is, if some city in the US, or military personnel (or embassy) were attacked with nuclear, biological or chemical weapons, our response would be swift, and severe. A nuclear strike on the perpetrators WILL happen. At that point it becomes a limited nuclear war. (If something I saw yesterday has any truth, then we were so close to a nuclear war during the Kursk incident, you people will pee your pants!)
John's being on this forum and making the claims he makes points out that there are indeed social problems today with which we all live. Those social problems, indeed the world problems we observe all around us from Israel to Russia, from Central America to Washington DC show that we live in an unstable world, in the 21st Century. Our actions - those actions of individuals - touch the lives of many, many others around us. People we know and do not know will be touched by one thing you do today.
If John is a time traveler, out of his own time line, then he exists here today because of something some scientists did some time ago, just as some people, perhaps entire families DO NOT EXIST TODAY because of the actions of some other scientists in 1945 at the Trinity site in New Mexico.
Today might be the day that a new Einstein is born, or dies due to an accident. Today might be they day aliens land and make first contact. I doubt that any of these things will happen, but that doesn't make it impossible. Keeping our minds open to the possibilities of WHAT MIGHT BE only helps us to prevent the evil things that might befall the human race. To deny that evil can happen, denies good the chance to defend itself.
Posted by John Titor on 03-02-2001 08:07 AM
I plan to address the previous questions in more detail but I thought this was interesting and might add something.
Lola States: ((I postulate that you actually do not have any more of an advantage or responsibility than the person who grabs someone who is about to step off the curb and get hit by a bus. I would not stop and think 'gee, I don't know, do they deserve to be saved from the fate of a roadkill?' A doctor or priest does not take it upon himself to decide who should be helped. A jet pilot doesn't stop to think "Hey, air travel is pretty unnatural, these people should have to walk and row their way to Paris. I am messing with the way time and space is perceived and the nature of reality with this form of transportation." Time travel is just another form of transportation in one sense. Our possible new ability to time travel in the future may not seem any more exotic than our ability to access other cultures is now.))
I agree with this also.
((Why is it different than using a jet to go to a primitive tribe and give them, say, antiobiotics. (never mind the problems with antibiotics)It is a high tech way of interfering with a culture. Who cares what time zone. Ethically isn't it the same?))
(( Are you posting on other (non time travel related) boards without revealing your status as a time traveler? Is the conversation as interesting? What are your conclusions so far?))
Not really, there are a number of science rooms and other chats I do visit and just sit and watch. I have discovered that people who frequent this board and some others have the most open and creative minds. I realize no one actually believes me but they are still able to look past that and ask some very important and interesting questions.
((… are, or were, you in contact with TTs in 2036, and if so, what percentage of the people accept it as possible? After the flight of the Wright Brothers at Kitty Hawk, it took 10 plus years for people to accept it as anything more than just an urban myth.))
The general public was informed about time travel around 2034. Yes, I have had conversations with other time travelers on my home worldline. Your insight on the public is more or less correct. I would say 60% of the people realize what it is and the possible implications, 20% of the people don’t care, 10% don’t believe it and another 10% see it as something that should be banned and stopped.
((Likewise, imagine if a time traveler from the future came to this time period and told us the secret of time travel.))
Yes, imagine that. Do you think that would be a good thing or a bad thing?
((John - commercials. They are ignorant commercials. In fact, almost every commercial on television these days are either totally stupid (so they come out funny), or they are aimed at people whose humor suffers from being "in the black" a lot. Black humor seems to be the way things go these days. I don't much care for it.))
Back in the 50s and 60s, television commercials were pretty straightforward. Usually along the lines of, “Cheese! It’s good! Buy cheese.” In the 70s, there was more identification with a producer or trademark but the commercials were still pretty easy to understand. “Buy this beer, it tastes great!” Today, I have no idea what some commercials are advertising until they show the logo at the end. Do you find this more effective? Only recently have I seen this move toward dark humor. I’ve never seen anything like it before, even in “your” archives in 2036.
FLIP top of 20
Posted by Lola Montez on 03-02-2001 12:01 PM
Your post brought to mind a conversation I had with a woman from Yugoslavia several years ago just a few months before the war started there. She was very adamant that there could be no real civil strife. Everyone got along very well, there were mixed marriages, mixed neighborhoods and in general everyone and everything was very civilized. Not a year later they were in a full civil war and doing unimaginable things to one another.
This woman was a University philosophy professor who had spent her entire life in Yugoslavia.
As you say, anything can happen.
People are the same EVERYWHERE. It is foolish to imagine that things that happen in Cambodia, Yugoslavia, Africa and have happened here are now no longer possible because we are now so evolved and civilized. History has the most important lessons for us yet we are unable to learn from them (or maybe it is truly impossible for us to change). But one thing is for sure-History repeats itself.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-02-2001 01:13 PM
Lola... you're right, and I think you said what I was trying to say in a short note. Thanks.
In America, we look around us and see a civilized society - where gangs, criminals and hoodlums carry guns illegally every day, and USE THEM - but law-abiding, non-violent people are denied the ease of obtaining or carrying weapons with which to defend themselves.
Obviously, this is not everywhere. I think 37 states now have Right to Carry laws now. Colorado, where I live has limited issue licenses for concealed weapons.
The point here is that LITTLE things like this challenge us every day. People somehow feel that "a new law" will fix a problem, when really, only common sense - and an understanding of previous laws would really fix the problem. I bring the weapons situation up, because it is a daily concern in my life, as well as the lives of many around me. It is a "hot button" issue for a LOT of people. You either want gun control or you want no gun control.
There are those who want to be in the middle (like a certain Congressman who hears from me weekly anymore) and concern yourself with "common sense gun laws" - which still ban guns to some extent.
These hot button issues cause people to get upset and DO SOMETHING about the situation. Sometimes one side takes it futher than the other side, which then escalates the situation.
No... there is no reason to believe that we will never have another civil war in this country, and there is definately no reason to believe there will never be a nuclear strike on ourselves or another country. Whether or not either of these scenarios would be survivalable is debatable but moot - since the possibilities exist that civil war, and/or nuclear war (whether limited or all-out) still exist.
The American or Western culture to which most of us posting here belong, are different in some ways than other countries. But, we are all still human. Humans make mistakes, misinterpert information, and humans simply in large numbers have differences of opinions. Humans... kill their own kind too.
Sorry for getting a bit off topic, but I'm still stuck on the Time Traveler Predictions John has given us. While John might not be a real time traveler, I can see merit in his statements.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-02-2001 01:29 PM
Don't get me wrong. I like the topic of time travel. Its been known that every civilization that has had something new given to them, say antibiotics, new medicine, or a new belief, has been known to eventually destroy themselves. The same way if we ever met a alien not from our Planet. This supposedly has happen, so has time travel. So, the end result is because we were exposed to this, this civilization as we know it, destroys itself. The same question in a form is still asked today:
If a human walks outside and there is a dark cloud overhead, the human says "I think I will grab an umbrella, it may rain". The other human walking outside with the first human, says "You will not need an umbrella, if no human exists, then no human will know that there was a dark cloud overhead." Which type of human are you, either one or both, or most important, to answer to yourself, why? If we think that humanity will destroy itself, then maybe our prophecy will fulfill itself, if we think the other way, then John may be already be in an alternate reality in a parallel universe in which case, the future as he knows it never happens. It reminds me of the show with Jonathan Burke about the book, "Connections".
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-02-2001 03:11 PM
Typing of "Connections":
How can John assume that as dangerous humans on this Planet, we won't kart off his 500lbs. time machine, so we develop time travel by the year 2036?
How can anyone go to jail for stealing a toy that was made in the future?
Do not worry, John, we will help get you back to your own reality and own real parallel Universe, so you can travel back in time by the year 2036. You may have to go through a few alternate realities and parallel Universes, but you will get back to the future.
Any second of any minute of any hour of any day before you leave, we may interfere with your plans?
Do we fulfill any future prophecy by doing this, afterall we assume that we really are dangerous humans on this Planet?
I do not assume that it will be me who does this, it may be someone else, who can tell?
Posted by John Titor on 03-02-2001 03:14 PM
((Is spiritual awakening a difficult process; if yes, then why is it so difficult, and are we all capable of it?))
Personally, I believe spiritual awakening is difficult. Why? I think God wants us back but the road we have to haul is no picnic. Maybe he’s a little angry for some reason.
I think the world is seductively clever in its presentation. "It" wants us to stay here and it distracts us from God by creating want, greed and four or five other motivations. Our goal should be to; yes, have faith and do good deeds but also look past that and have the wisdom and knowledge to realize that this place, this world, this universe is not really our home. The question I ask myself is not can I get to God, it's am I prepared for what will it be like when I get there.
((There are plenty of great mysteries, but if your only aim its to 'get to God', it is not necessary to solve them.))
I mean mysteries not of this world. For example: I suspect that the final thing we will have to give up to get to God is our free will. Do you think many people will be standing at the pearly gates saying “yes” to that one if they had a choice to come back here?
((What do you see for the future of TT in your world-line?))
That’s a good question. I am hopeful that one day when we get the planet cleaned up it will be a nice place to live on again and no one will want to leave it. On the other hand, if time travel were commonplace right now, I think a great many people would leave and perhaps never return. There is also a suggestion that time travel might make an interesting punishment. However, I don’t think we have the right to force criminals on unsuspecting worldlines and sending them to the Stone Age might be a bit much.
((I had met someone, a year or so ago, who said he was from the year 2036 also. He said something happened to make this travel all the more possible. He gave me some details, I wonder if they are the same as yours.))
Although not impossible, I doubt there is another time traveler here from 2036. I have been chatting on and off for quite a while and in other chatrooms. I have also seen and heard about other people who have taken a creative license with some of the things I’ve said and posted. It might have been me but I’ve never heard of the DNE.
((John,thank you for sharing,I find this fasinating.wanted to ask, has California,had"the Big" earthquake,in your time and has any of the north Coast disappeared?..also, I really do wish that you could be a guest on Art's show,I am sure it would be enjoyable...thanks again.....Richard.))
The big one? As you are experiencing now, there are earthquakes, storms and other unfortunate surprises from Mother Nature that have impacts on your society and future history. That is one reason I won’t go into detail. However, don’t worry too much about major portions of coastline slipping under water.
I do enjoy Art’s show very much and I must admit I’ve been surprised more than once by some of the things I’ve heard. I’ve seen reference to other “time travelers” that Art has spoken with and I realize his credibility (and ability to have an entertaining program) is at stake when he talks to someone making such extreme claims. As you all know, I think skepticism is good.
I enjoy talking to you too. Thanks for the enlightenment.
CRAIG on page 20:
Posted by Barbara Clements on 03-02-2001 07:51 PM
John, all kidding aside, an extremely important thing; do they ever get around to making any new Aeon Flux episodes?
Posted by Lynne Lynch on 03-02-2001 07:57 PM
Just a couple of questions for you,
1. Can you say if the Geon will be ever be revealed at all in the future?
2. What do Guinea Pigs eat in your time frame?
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-03-2001 12:07 PM
I was thinking about what you wrote here in your previous thread:
""...There is also a suggestion that time travel might make an interesting punishment. However, I don’t think we have the right to force criminals on unsuspecting worldlines and sending them to the Stone Age might be a bit much. ""
Whoa! now there is a thought.
putting criminals back in time for punishment.
What if you put a repeat offender rapist back in the stoneage, or even further....before man.
And he started mating with everything he could find.
His first target would probably be the apes since there would be no other humans around.
He might even create a half-ape/half-man being.
Which might alter entire belief systems when they dug up the bones later. Leading people to believe we came from apes.
How's that for creative thinking???? hahaha
What if he left footprints? or worse yet...a shoe print?
Putting angry criminals back in time is probably not a good idea. could you imagine the consequences??
hmmmm, I think I know what you mean now by no absolute truths when dealing with time travel....things could always change.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-03-2001 03:12 PM
Okay, the US has social problems. Every country does, including Russia. Its not a debate to be that War in any form can be avoided. Let's take the scenarios that John lays out. A Civil War needs a leader first. How is this done? By groups hanging out in the invisible. Maybe. The Congress and President drafts everyone it can, the military takes over at first, marshall law can be declared. What happens, leaders take over, and the President is still left free to perform other duties like monitering Russia. Russia supposedly attacks. How limited is the nuclear war. First it must be defined. Any kind of debate concludes that you are assuming that some form of life exists when it is all over. How many missiles is limited? 150 missiles. How many get through? Einstein used a thought experiment, or imagined relativity. We shoot most of the missiles down, so does Russia, China does not. Little wars start all over the World. North and South Korea, India and Pakistan. Use nuclear missiles. The US may bomb Iraq. Now how many missiles are flying totally. Over 500 about. That may be just enough to end life on this Planet. The oceans heat up, the water recedes from ultraviolet radiation from the Sun. The Polar Caps start melting, the oceans go up. The magnetic pole of the Earth shifts, it goes too far. The Earth starts moving off it spin axis, resulting in more destruction. Earthquakes now take place, the atmosphere depletes letting water vapor out into space. The land starts going under the water level. Animals turn on humans.
Elephants drop over, trample things. On and on, all because humans could not imagine what the result would be of even a limited nuclear war. Would humans survive this? I do not want to find out. There's seem to be an emotion about having a limited nuclear war, that humans would survive, it still takes thought processes. Whatever they are feeling for that emotion is nothing that I want to be around. I am not their slave. The result, life ends even if it takes just a little longer.
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-03-2001 09:35 PM
Banishing criminals to the past - an interesting thought.
I'm glad that there seems to be no evidence that that has happened. As it happens, "criminals" are my business and have been so for the past thirty-three years.
I'd have some very strong objections to sending them into the Stoneage (or any other prior age for that matter). As it happens, there truly isn't a strong correlation between low intelligence and criminal behavior. Criminals tend to be less educated but do possess at least average intelligence. If we were to send them into the past we'd create a timeline where "modern" ingenuity and "modern" man appear in (circa) 10,000 BC...thus no Stoneage. Even with a limited education the banished would introduce the technical skills of their chosen trades into that age (criminals really do have work skills - even skills that qualify as "expert" by our standards.) It gets worse if you send them into a "pre-human" era. By fiat you have re-defined "pre-human" to exclude that period from being "pre-human."
I still see no practical applicability for time travel to our experience. If it turns out that string or bubble theory is true then time travel is possible - but the "place" traveled to has no connection to our reality. And a successful return trip from another bubble or string is tenuous at best. One would have no way of verifying that the timeline to which they returned was the same timeline from which they left. If it turns out that there is but one unified timeline, then any meddling with the past (i.e. time traveling) ends causality on the timeline from the instant of the Big Bang and renders the timeline untenable - that is, it precludes the formation of our universe. (The reason for positing that causality ends at the instant of the Big Bang is the result of contamination. If time travel is possible in a non-string/bubble reality then the time line has the entirity of eternity for time travelers to contaminate the whole of the time line. Causality fails at all instants on the time line and it collapses before it forms. A macro-singularity of mass-energy & space-time, as it were.)
Frankly, I'm probably no different than anyone else who logs onto the Time Travel threads. Thinking about, fantasizing about and pondering the significance of time travel is fascinating. This facet of modern theoretical physics and philosophy is the cutting edge of critical thought.
I suppose that time travel is so fascinating for me because everyone who poses an opinion is potentially correct - without exclusion. If time travel can be accomplished then it will be accomplished. Because our timeline appears to be one where cause and effect are directly related then it would appear that string-bubble reality is proved in that context. Our four dimensional view of reality is one (of an infinite array of possibilities) where cause precedes effect. That may not be true of other timelines.
Posted by Bob Marz on 03-04-2001 06:51 AM
RE: Getting back to one's own time
I assume as we get to the final touches of engineering time travel we will devise a system to ensure a return trip. Analogous to bringing along a ball of twine and letting it out, or, as Hansel and Gretal did, drop breadcrumbs along the way to follow back, or, as spelunkers do sometimes, tie down an anchor point and explore on the tether.
There will have to be a fixed starting point that the electronics can follow back. Or some sort of electronic marker or "fix" will be referenced before the trip starts. This means, of course, more sophisticated computers than that old IBM box that John uses (or gear that works in conjunction with it).
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-04-2001 02:54 PM
Got a message back from Doc. John's images are back up.
He said he did some study on the problem, and it seems that Geocities is blocking links from other servers that attempt to access their database.
He said he put tto's images on his comteck server for right now until he can find another one. The pics work on the forum now despite interferance from geocities.
I knew Doc would find a way! hurray DOC!
Posted by E. Robert Gonzalez on 03-04-2001 03:35 PM
I have been a temporal researcher for at least two years now and mostly studied radionic forms of time travel. I personally have not yet used one of the devices but have heard stories and evidence leading me to think they work. I was also wondering if you have heard of any of the radionic and Steven Gibbs devices. I have had a possible encounter with my future self that I can only characterize as being very strange. He knew all my most personal thoughts and convinced me over a period of about a year that he was me or atleast someone who knew me very well. Apparently he came from an alternate time line like you, and his motive seemed more like an informational one to me. It appears at some point in time I might time travel although I'm not sure. What he told me somewhat corresponds to what you say and that's what scares me. I was hoping maybe it was just a future in another universe much different from ours and that my future would be some what peaceful and good to live in. I now see a picture of a world that is war torn and hard to live in. At first I was skeptical and then accepted you as being a true time traveler with all the evidence and stories you put forth. I hope to maybe send a comment to my future self and ask a couple of questions. I would like to tell my future self this message: "Never forget Echelon Group and the ones you love you most, keep strong and don't give up." If his time line is anything like mine, he'll know what I mean. It's just something to keep his spirits up. Now for some questions, is it possible that I some how help any areas of time travel or get noticed in the future (Maybe recognize my name)? Do most of the people of that time die out, especially ones that currently have health problems? Is it possible that sometime in your future or in your present time that time travel will be common place? Have any of the scientists of your time discovered any new planets, possibly ones with life? Has the bandwidth of the internet increased greatly? And finally, one last question...how did Texas fare during the war (If you can answer)? Thanks for your time...I hope maybe I can e-mail you or maybe I can e-mail you some how and talk for awhile.[Edited by E. Robert Gonzalez on 03-04-2001 at 03:41 PM]
Posted by Craig Cuthbert on 03-04-2001 03:44 PM
- - - "Craig on Page 20" ....What comes after that??? LOL
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-05-2001 02:02 AM
E. Robert Gonzalez,
I take it by your last name that your Spanish, am I right? I noticed from your post that you believe John's claims, that he's actually a bona-fined Time Traveler. You know, once I asked John a very similar question to the one you just asked him. “Am I deeply involved in a Time Travel project?” Knowing already the answer to that question, he answered me by saying that he didn’t know me. And that if he did, he wouldn’t tell me.
I just wanted to emphasis to the whole public viewing these posts that John still has not made it clear what his secret agenda is. To allow our minds to accept what he says to be true, we accept the very immorality of his secret agenda, whatever it may be.
He is a Time Traveler, most of you people believe. Do most of you also believe that he is sincere in everything he says? Yet you forget that he said he would take people back with him.
I know that some of you wanted to volunteer. Yet John lied, and now your faith in him is still strong, adjusting accordingly to keep his ideals true. Why am I the only one bringing this up, questioning him? Maybe because I don’t believe him, and because I won’t be disappointed like some of you if I find out he isn’t a Time Traveler. Reminds me of the Heaven’s Gate movement all over again.
That’s pathetic isn’t it? I know that some of you want to admit it; you’re in the closet, thinking it over. Whether he truly is, or isn’t. You still have that doubt that refuses to answer. You have a voice… don’t be afraid of using it and taking leadership.
Somebody has to be on the opposing side, am I to believe that I am the only one?
John has many followers on his side; there is no doubt about that. But do you know what you are actually following?
He has put his younger self in danger of someday being found out and exploited by our government. He has exploited the opportunity of using the past to rowdy up events for some secret agenda he claims to have. Saying he will video tape his departure, completely irresponsible of its repercussions. Just to name a few.
The choice is ours people; our future is what we want it to be. Do most of you want a future where Time Travel is a way of life? I know I don’t, because how would you feel knowing that your life is not yours to dictate, but mainly what the future wants it to be.
I wouldn’t dare think of exploiting the past, to benefit in some event in the future. That goes against my ethics. Obviously, some of you will have no problem with that, and ruin it for the rest of us. Gee, thanks a lot.
Posted by John Titor on 03-05-2001 06:06 AM
((He is a Time Traveler, most of you people believe. Do most of you also believe that he is sincere in everything he says? Yet you forget that he said he would take people back with him.))
Could you do me a favor and point out exactly where I made that offer? I do recall a few people asking what it would be like but I don't believe I ever offered to take people back.
J.C., a few days ago on Art's show, I heard Art make refrence to someone named J.C. who was very persistant in calling the show when ever the subject of time travel came up. If it's you, I admire your dedication.
Also, what happened to your "time cop" thread?
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-05-2001 07:18 AM
Gooten Tag - one and all.
I've just spent the worst weekend. Wish I could go back in time and correct it.
Albert: First I want to address some things you said, but not your entire message. I'll try to keep my comments brief.
"Let's take the scenarios that John lays out. A Civil War needs a leader first. How is this done? By groups hanging out in the invisible. Maybe."
There are already very, very large militia groups that formed around the time of the last elections. In fact, the NRA is being considered a 'militia group' by some now. It grew by millions prior to the elections - mainly due to direct attacks on the right to keep and bear arms. Organizations such as the Militia of Montana have gained hundreds of members in recent weeks. There are others, that are larger. There are leaders, there are invisible groups that even I don't know about (and I keep track of who's who in the militia arena - for personal reason, nothing related to my job).
"The Congress and President drafts everyone it can, the military takes over at first, marshall law can be declared. What happens, leaders take over, and the President is still left free to perform other duties like monitering Russia. Russia supposedly attacks. "
If and when Martial Law is declared - that will be the straw that breaks the camel's back. The current President KNOWS this, and CLinton knew it too. I surmise from his last actions (the pardons for instance) that he felt the timing wrong for declaring martial law and would have if he thought he could have remained in office. Many of the groups I mentioned before were braced for precisely that event. They are braced for martial law. The biggest thing is that if martial law is declared, some believe UN forces will be brought in to suplement US forces. Why? Because foreigners do not have qualms about shooting americans. Keep that in mind if things start looking like they are moving toward that sort of thing.
John - can you... confirm from your point of view any of that? (Nothing specific there obviously).
"How limited is the nuclear war. First it must be defined. Any kind of debate concludes that you are assuming that some form of life exists when it is all over. How many missiles
is limited? 150 missiles. How many get through? Einstein used a thought experiment, or imagined relativity. We shoot
most of the missiles down, so does Russia, China does not. Little wars start all over the World. North and South Korea, India and Pakistan. Use nuclear missiles. The US may bomb Iraq. Now how many missiles are flying totally. Over 500 about. That may be just enough to end life on this Planet. The oceans heat up, the water recedes from ultraviolet radiation from the Sun. The Polar Caps start melting, the oceans go up. The magnetic pole of the Earth shifts, it goes too far. The Earth starts moving off it spin axis, resulting in more destruction. "
Obviously, all of this is supposition on both our parts. However, I agree with you about the "smaller wars". As far as how many get through... right now, all of them. Life will exist when it is all over. You know why? Because there have been many, many "Ice Ages" throughout our geological history. There have been at least 5, (I believe 6) major extinctions already in the history of our planet. Each time a major extinction has occurred the dominate life forms were destroyed, and yet life continued to survive, then thrive and finally a new, dominate life form took over. Each obviously more intelligent than the last.
The last two involved dinosaurs and other higher lifeforms, and man is the latest incarnation of dominate lifeform on this planet. Man is capable of total destruction of this world if man does so.
"There's seem to be an emotion about having a limited nuclear war, that humans would survive, it still takes thought processes. Whatever they are feeling for that emotion is nothing that I want to be around. I am not their slave. The result, life ends even if it takes just a little
Emotion is the main ingredient in any war, regardless of whether or not it is nuclear or conventional. People get mad, they fight, they argue and eventually they go to war as a group/country/nation/race/religion/etc. The thought processes change radically from "let's get along" to "those BASTARDS" to "let's kill them all" and then back to a very organized thought process of how best to kill the enemy.
But, the part that precipitates a war takes very little effort or thought on the part of the antagonists. They simply let their emotions take over. When it gets too far, war starts and after the beginning of the war - the thoughts turn to killing, not how to get out of the war.
Nuclear weapons are the ultimate device with which to put a stop to a war. As such they won't be used until they are deemed absolutely necessary. But, once a war begins, the possibility exists, and as low as the probabilities might seem, they are always much higher than any of us believe.
As we can see from this forum alone, the human mind grabs hold of ideas that are on the fringe and believes them. But thoughts that are scary, deadly and even point to the real truth about humanity (how bad and evil people can be if they want) we try to deny those possibilities. We do not wish to believe that the human race is capable of some of the evil that we've seen in the past.
So - we try to deny it. My point throughout this forum, to everyone including you and Javier is that even if you do not BELIEVE in something, do not believe it can happen, you STILL MUST keep your mind open to the possibilities because then you are forewarned. Forewarned is forearmed.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-05-2001 08:38 AM
That didn't stop you from having people believe it. You could have come forward and made a public announcement to get it straight with people the first time. And now finally you say you never said it. What not say that the first time I brought it up too?
My guess, is that I out-witted you, and now you finally found a come back .
Your guess is as good as mine on the thread. I have no idea where it went to. Perhaps it's the J.C. that's calling Art's show. Maybe it's a future me, who took it down to minimize speculation.
Knowing how I am, I know that I will not rest until I bring Time Travel Violators to justice. So maybe there is a high chance that it could be me. Why, scared John? You sounded nervous to me.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-05-2001 09:20 AM
I leave the Mr. Time Traveler, and all, a parting gift. The meaning of life is explicit, the questions are not. Whether John's future is true or not, whether any possibility exists, whether foreigner will kill citizens of the US. The answers were always there, written by other people long ago thinking about life.
Written by Thomas Jefferson, June 1776, :
When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government.
The thinking has all been done, still the questions will always be asked. What is the meaning of life? There a glimpse of it from Thomas Jefferson.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-05-2001 09:39 AM
"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government. "
My point was, and still is that because of this document, because our government is self-governing, because the people control the outcome and not some entity called "government" there is and always will be, as long as the Constitution exists in its present form... the possibilities that those "in power" will make mistakes, either accidently or purposefully, and those accidents will lead to nodes in time.
This "node in time" is what I call the various crossroads where, if a certain incident had not occured then other, larger events would not have occurred.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-05-2001 10:21 AM
Very nicely put Albert. I agree with Thomas Jefferson. We must do something. The way things are going, lots of people are just letting the government do things to us. No body takes enough of a stand anymore in matters of the government taking away our rights, our freedom. Look at the picture our resident Time Travel painted for us. We can’t do jack in his Time Line. And to make matters worse, Time Travel is a way of life to their government and people, and for what hidden agenda?
I’ll bet you’ll have some very interesting stories to tell your government about us when you go back John . What will your report entitle? That you weren’t prepared for the year 2001, and that you had information about your time device leak out? It’s true; you stated you weren’t ready for the year 2001, who knows what things you could have done different had you been ready.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-05-2001 11:23 AM
And in conclusion, Thomas Jefferson wrote:
In every stage of these oppressions we have petitioned for redress in the most humble terms: our repeated petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
Nor have we been wanting in attention to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, enemies in war, in peace friends.
The US is backed by NUCLEAR WEAPONS.
I think its safe to assume that the people who bought and paid for these weapons of mass destruction may well know what to do with the Devil as soon as I get there, or him, or her.
No, these weapons do not make the World safe, but I do know where I might be going, afterall: "How can God allow a person into Heaven even if that person is praying for forgiveness while still socking it to that place when whoever shows up down there, well maybe?
Is a further question maybe, are humans ever at Peace?
Posted by John Titor on 03-05-2001 11:32 AM
((What music do 20 year olds listen to.))
People listen to all types of music. A great deal of it is available over the web. I would also add that people spend much more time making their own music.
((What's the future of cloning.))
Cloning full people has been determined to be medically and ethically unsound. We do have research and progress in cloning body parts and creating more viable sperm and egg production.
((Any more on Bill Gates? ))
Not really. Just curious, why is he of such interest?
((Do people wear chips yet?))
No. People value their personal independence and ability to take care of themselves.
((Are you a marked man?))
Not that I’m aware of.
((I would still like to know what population makes a city big.))
Cities become targets because of their military and economic value. Any large area supported by a civil infrastructure is likely to be on that list.
((Your time sounds grim. Are you tempted to deliver your computer to 2036 and then retire in the 1970's? ))
Not at all. I’m anxious to get home.
((What did you think about those commercials?))
I think those commercials capitalize on other people’s misery and misfortune in an attempt to sell a product. I can understand coming up with an idea like but what confuses me is how does it get past that stage? How do people sit in a room around a large conference table and agree that leaving a critically injured person lying in the snow is funny and will sell cell phones?
Posted by Chester Ward on 03-05-2001 12:15 PM
I'm new to the forum as of today and having just read the older discussions, I can tell you when you "invited" people to time-hop with you. Although your post of February 9th wasn't truly an invitation to join you when you travel back, I can see how it could have been taken by some as being such.
I'd love to go back to the funkier times of the '70s; every day I feel more out of step with today's world. If there's room for me and you are amenable to it, could you really drop me off in 1975? If so please reply. Thank you.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-05-2001 12:24 PM
Ahh haa. Busted John.
See you did lie, and you kept it going. So your just as guilty whether or not you implied it directly or not. The point is, people believed you, and you did nothing to stop that.
Way to go John, still waiting for that public apology.
Posted by John Titor on 03-05-2001 12:52 PM
((Although your post of February 9th wasn't truly an invitation to join you when you travel back, I can see how it could have been taken by some as being such.))
I’m sure many things by many people are taken in many ways. I find this an interesting point because I think its important to have implied agreements on words and meanings before you can talk with another person. If it wasn’t an invitation (by your own acknowledgement), am I responsible for what people think? If I am, how would you propose that I double check that? Are there really that many people out there upset about this?
((Way to go John, still waiting for that public apology.))
I publicly apologize for confusing you J.C. and anyone else who is packing their old bell-bottoms and shalls for a trip back to 1975.
Just curious J.C. Can you think of anything I could do to prove to you that I’m not a time traveler?
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-05-2001 01:06 PM
((Just curious J.C. Can you think of anything I could do to prove to you that I’m not a time traveler? ))
I'm confused... what do you mean? I don't think you are. Just wanted you to get your own story stright that's all.
It's not my fault I found some discrepancies. You didn't get upset with Pamela when she did too. All I did was pointed them out to you. Just how she did. Right?
Hypocrisy, I tell you.
P.S. Now don't you feel better now after you apologize? It wasn't so hard after all, I don't see why you waited so long to do so ?[Edited by Javier Cortez on 03-05-2001 at 01:29 PM]
Posted by Barbara Clements on 03-05-2001 01:14 PM
Since Heaven's Gate was mentioned, I would like to say those involved in Heaven's Gate were seeking a meaning for their lives. They wanted the easy way out, to hand thinking over to someone else, and follow with the implication they were now endowed with that meaning. I think they must've had a feeling of lack of meaning in the first place. Maybe people wish to believe in a time traveler in order to feel the same way. That they have meaning to their lives, proved by the fact that they are under the surveilance of someone 'important'.
Perhaps you are a time traveler, perhaps you are Whitley Streiber under a pen name, who knows? Thomas Jefferson wrote with thoughts that mattered not if he ever transcended his own time bodily, his mind did it for him. The beauty of his soul came from his ability to think in relation to his fellow human beings with empathy for their plight. If time travel is possible, someone please give him a bus ticket, because we need him in every time available.[Edited by Barbara Clements on 03-05-2001 at 01:44 PM]
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-05-2001 01:21 PM
Now that we have the "What If Scenarios".
If it happens, it happens.
Similiar to questions asked here, another forum discussed some possibilities in the form a a Forum Story Googolplex. That was at http://www.sidgames.com/forums in the topic class: Off-Topic. The story came down to the question "Can humans with run-on sentences increase the total mass of the Universe, at which point, it buldges at it seams, and we cause a split, or a duality, of the Universe with all of this Information Age, or that the Universe is destroyed, (blows up) from the increase in mass due to run-on sentences?"
If it happens, well, I guess, it happened.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-05-2001 01:22 PM
That was beautifully put . I hope though, that your post actually reach some people.
Posted by Lola Montez on 03-05-2001 01:47 PM
Thomas Jefferson owned 2,000 slaves.
Posted by Chester Ward on 03-05-2001 01:48 PM
...about returning to '75.
I'm not in any way trying to jump on the "let's trip John up" bandwagon here. I'm sorry if that's how you took it. You asked if someone would point out the "invitation" and, as the post was fresh in my mind, I did, and also clarified it as "not exactly an invitation". I asked if you'd consider taking a hitch-hiker, as I've no reason to doubt you're being who you say you are, I absolutely believe time travel happens and have, for the past decade, dreamed of going back to simpler times. Since you're stopping there anyway....
Posted by Randy Empey on 03-05-2001 02:15 PM
Actually, I have a question (which is along very simmular lines as what I think John is getting at) that I want to see you answer: Can you prove or disprove anything? And if your answer to that is 'Yes.' then I'd also like to have you prove it.[Edited by Randy Empey on 03-05-2001 at 02:24 PM]
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-05-2001 02:28 PM
Here is a link to Russia, http://allnews.ru , did I just prove it?
Posted by Barbara Clements on 03-05-2001 02:32 PM
Lola, those were the times.
Posted by E. Robert Gonzalez on 03-05-2001 02:45 PM
I probably worded it wrong when I talked about believing John. I am now leaning towards the possibility that he is a time traveler for alot of personal reasons as well. I hope I can get my questions answered by John and further understand your apparently grim future. Apparently the more visible mission of my "future-self" was to save my future and that of my family's. I am very worried about the future and would do my best to protect the ones I love. If I can atleast be prepared for it, then maybe I'll fare well.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-05-2001 02:50 PM
Prove what? All I did was point out John’s discrepancies. I think it's proof enough, if you can see what he's said in past post, and what he says now. It doesn't match up.
Posted by John Titor on 03-05-2001 05:49 PM
((Can you tell us if reverse speech is used in the future for business or even pleasure?))
I’m not very familiar with reverse speech but what I saw on the web leads me to conclude it’s a bit objective. I’m not sure if its been proven scientifically to be very accurate. Are you aware of any research that shows that?
((Also, can you talk about earthquakes in California or Nevada?))
No I can’t. Besides, I see others predicting earthquakes and very few people pay any attention to them.
((Thanks, John, for starting this topic and sharing your time with us. We are really enjoying it and you!))
I appreciate that a great deal. Your future will be fine.
((Warping time and space takes lots of energy))
Yes it does. A nuclear aircraft carrier and a space shuttle main engine also take a great deal of energy.
((. .. making finding out if or how TT works hard . . . is this because of some accidental way the universe turned out, or is it a fundamental law written in by the Creator?))
Hawking believes it’s possible to build a time machine but a mysterious energy will destroy it if anyone tries to use it. In my opinion, manipulating gravity is not the hard part of time travel. Also, with great power comes great responsibility. If man has a limitation, that’s it.
((John Titor,what if something happens to your device to get back,let us say inoperable,would you then change the world by announcing warnings,and also what if you got a flat tire inbetwwen times would you have to pull over to fix it in a wrong time?))
No, I wouldn’t do anything different if my machine broke. I would still be a stranger and a guest here. My opinions and “announcements” would also be the same as anyone else’s. I may however offer advice to my younger self.
((I still have some questions you have not responded to but hate to ask again in the event you do not wish to respond or just have not made your way to them yet. Could you let me know which? I will wait to hit you with more until I know the status.))
If I missed something feel free to bring it up again.
(( Why aren't you traveling and telling us about your latest trip to the pyramids…))
Yes, that would be fascinating but the unit I have is unable to go back that far accurately.
((instead of talking about specifics you should be bored from in your awareness to them?))
Not at all, I find the subject fascinating. There are two real issues I hope people think about when I’m gone. One, how will you react when another time traveler shows up and two, how are we going to handle the responsibility of time travel when its invented.
((Are the Great Pryamids still standing in 2036?))
Yes, although one of them was severely damaged.
((If you wish to experience society as it was, admitting yourself to be a time traverler is counter-productive.))
Yes, if I was here for that purpose and if you believed me I suppose that would be an issue.
((How's communication around the world in 2036. Do you still have literature widely available?))
Yes, books and other literature are available but most of the distribution is via the net.
((What's the latest book you've read that you were only able to hear about in your own time?))
The latest book I read was the autobiography of the Red Baron compiled from letters to his mother. Yes, I was aware of it in my own time but finding an original copy there was almost impossible.
((Is new literature also so available?))
((Is the english language begining to segment into sects and accents with less influence from trourists? Or is tourism still strong and thriving in 2036.))
I would say the English language is pretty much the same as it is now. There are differences in slang and figures of speech but it’s nothing you couldn’t pick up. Yes, I suppose we do have “tourism”.
Thanks again for the book reference.
((can you tell me what year the police will stop busting people for smoking weed???))
It happens about the same time they stop coming to your house when you dial 911.
((do they start pushing for legalization earlier than the war????))
It's not really an issue of the government letting you do something, It’s more like they have other things to worry about. Don’t you feel you’re capable of taking care of yourself? If you want to take mood-altering drugs, why should my opinions stop you from that? They don’t stop you from taking alcohol, tobacco or fast food.
In any case, it also lets Darwin take over. One of the reasons drug abuse isn’t a major problem in 2036 is because no one wants to die from it and everyone else who did is dead.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-05-2001 06:25 PM
Hypothetically speaking, what will make your trip to the future impossible? And if you do go back, what here can change it?
Even superman has weakness, and I am sure there is something or someone (hehe ) in this world that can change your future.
Some Yang will always exist to oppose some Ying.
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-05-2001 07:43 PM
You make the statement that you do not believe John is really a time traveler.....what is all of this then????
(all from this thread.."Iam from 2036")
"That above example not just shows how irresponsible you are, but how ignorant as a Time Traveler you are as well: “I just don’t know. I was not prepared for the year 2001.” Good choice, 2036"
.."and your future culture finds no flaw with prolonging it. Instead, they gave one of their Time Traveler (meaning you) a device to come to the past and exploit the chance to take and do as you and they see fit.
Time Travel is an evil means to get what you want; I wouldn’t be surprised if your world is Satanic. "
"Hence my hatred towards Time Travel, and Time Travelers. "
"Someone’s got to do something. Who here has the guts to stand up for justice in the matter of temporal violators?"
"And as for me being jealous of John, that’s not likely. Why would I be jealous of a Time Traveler? I hate Time Travelers"
"I have to say John is very clever. But personally I don't like Time Travelers, so I can't be like you or the rest and listen to him. "
"Look at the picture our resident Time Travel painted for us. We can’t do jack in his Time Line. And to make matters worse, Time Travel is a way of life to their government and people, and for what hidden agenda?"
"I’ll bet you’ll have some very interesting stories to tell your government about us when you go back John . What will your report entitle? That you weren’t prepared for the year 2001, and that you had information about your time device leak out? It’s true; you stated you weren’t ready for the year 2001, who knows what things you could have done different had you been ready"
"knowing how I am, I know that I will not rest until I bring time Travel Violators to justice. So maybe there is a high chance that it could be me. Why, scared John? You sounded nervous to me."
"He has put his younger self in danger of someday being found out and exploited by our government. He has exploited the opportunity of using the past to rowdy up events for some secret agenda he claims to have. Saying he will video tape his departure, completely irresponsible of its repercussions. Just to name a few.
The choice is ours people; our future is what we want it to be. Do most of you want a future where Time Travel is a way of life? I know I don’t, because how would you feel knowing that your life is not yours to dictate, but mainly what the future wants it to be. "
With all things considered, Is it not possible that people could misunderstand you as well?
for anyone listening to these statements might just come to the conclusion that you may be the biggest believer of all.
John said: ((Just curious J.C. Can you think of anything I could do to prove to you that I’m not a time traveler? ))
"Prove what? All I did was point out John’s discrepancies. I think it's proof enough, if you can see what he's said in past post, and what he says now. It doesn't match up. "[Edited by Pamela Moore on 03-05-2001 at 08:34 PM]
Posted by Craig Cuthbert on 03-05-2001 08:09 PM
Barbara those were nice thoughts though isn't it a bit presumptuous to imagine you know how the Heaven's Gate people felt? It is my understanding that the majority of them had lived together for some 20 years and had spent a lot of time directly confronting the difficult issues of their own and each other's lives, in an exciting, supportive and sometimes uncomfortably confrontive way. People who wanted to leave were given $1000 to help get back into the swing of normal life. Most testimonials talked about how deep their experience of life had been on their path. People here in San Diego who had contact with them spoke of what a joy it was to just be around them.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-05-2001 11:04 PM
A future Russian leader starts a conversation answered by the American leader in the future:
Dah, Dah, Dah, dah, dah, Dah!
Duh! Duh!, Duh!, duh, duh, duh, duh, Duh!
Duh, duh, duh, duh duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh
Dah! dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah,dah dah
Duh! duh, duh, duh,duh,duh,duh,duh Duh!
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-06-2001 03:43 AM
Well, I been reading more, now I'll lose some sleep.
It seems that the Civil War part, is what I question.
If I went by what you say John, then, if I'm not too tired,
then it would be the Police that start acting weird?
Well, a lot of people seem to be bent towards hate these days. Want to hand out orders, be in control.
But still I just find that the Police are trying to do their job.
Now the lastest is thermal imaging of houses where drugs may be grown. Is that a real loss of a freedom, or should they have the right to (spy) on people with high-tech devices?
A laser that shines on a window can record the conversation going on in the house.
Since I mainly listen to talk radio, this is where I get my info, from a talk-show host that seems to have a nack for finding out things going on in this time.
I guess this is the question that we now have to answer, high-tech equipment helping out law-enforcement?
I still think if people are not doing anything wrong, then these problems can be solved peacefully, not at the expense of human-life?
Others may conclude that it means a loss of rights.
Many people would not like to admit their madness in this day and age. I find that usually fighting for things that may not change to be the biggest problem with people, they want to instantly fight over all things. It's this pettyness that drives people now. Road rage, not allowing for other people to think, others not being concerned with what they are doing, causing problems, but a deep un-relaxed feeling that everyone is against them.
Are we blooming flowers or dying wilting flowers?
A lot of people scare themselves into thinking doom.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-06-2001 07:36 AM
You out of all people, should know that I speak hypothetically. Or if anyone claims to be something, I make it sound if he were, what would he do if he were. Haven't you noticed? Everytime I question him, it's to make it seem that if he were a Time Traveler, why is he messing up so much? I don't believe he is though, you took what I said and attacked me without knowing all the facts. And you know me better then these people, so that makes it even more difficult to understand why you would be so much against me.
He didn't get mad at you when you brought forward his mistakes, but when I bring out his mistakes he gets mad at me, and you support him everytime. That's just not fair.
How many times must I tell you that it's the principal that drives me. If he is, or isn't a Time Traveler, he claims he is. I don't believe him though. You do though, and so do alot of other people here.
Excuse me for being on the opposite side of things, but it needs to be known.
Have a nice day,
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-06-2001 08:43 AM
I am trying to make you aware of something. I am trying to point something out to you.
"You out of all people, should know that I speak HYPOTHETICALLY Or if anyone claims to be something, I make it sound if he were, what would he do if he were."
How was one to know this? wasnt this what John claimed he was doing? If he was actually going to take people back with him this is how he would do it? you called him a liar...would this make you one as well? Should I ask for your apology to the group?
"you took what I said and attacked me without knowing all the facts."
I have only done with your words what you have done with John's. If you consider this an attack...you might want to consider what you are doing to John.
"He didn't get mad at you when you brought forward his mistakes, but when I bring out his mistakes he gets mad at me"
I don't think John is mad at you. He has never spoken even one bad word against you to me. I can testify to that.
"I don't believe him though. You do though, and so do alot of other people here."
you are assuming this but have no idea what people believe on this forum unless they have stated it openly. even then....people can change their minds.
You, yourself have no proof whatsoever that John is or isnt a time traveler. people have the right to beleive or not believe whatever they want to. Most people just want to hear what John has to say. let them make up their own minds.
I am not against you, Javier. I am just trying to make you aware of some things. what you are doing to others, you do not like yourself. And talking about not being fair...I don't think you are being very fair to John.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-06-2001 09:44 AM
Well talk about streching the truth. John was direct in claims of being a Time Traveler, everyone knew I was intentive in exposing him. If that method is to give the example of "What if you were a Time Traveler" "what would you do if" and so on, does not mean I believe he is, if it gave you and him the impression that I believed him. I think that's where you misunderstood me and all this started.
I can do very well without bringing up what you said, I know what you mean. People can make up their own minds. But you must let them choose. Not just let them have 1 side of a subject to choose.
Me being quiet, will just leave 1 side. Your side. And that is what I have been trying to make you be aware of for almost a year now.
Moreover, did you think I cared what John has said to you about me. NO! Have I ever asked you, NO! What makes you think I care?
Just because I said it wasn't fair, does not mean I want others to feel sorry for me because you think you turned it around on me. I just said that to point out how hypocritical some people can be.
Posted by James N. Dickey on 03-06-2001 11:17 AM
Let's just say for now Ok. I take it the big corporate giants are still around(GE, GM, GF and the like) is the World of 2036 still Money Driven or has that changed. Does it still Squelch the little Guy with a better Mouse Trap(Free Energie) or more Produtive means of producing Power(Like H2O2 Receprecating Rocket Engine) or the Burk 2-Stroke which was demonstrated in the 60's and was able to run an 18-whlr with only 60cc engine size. Did the Perpetual Thermal Steam Disk ever take off in mass Use. or did it preaty much stay the same as it has been(Exploite the Non Renuable Resorcess) and their By Products. Just a few Thaughts for Now. James
Posted by David R Ferguson on 03-06-2001 11:37 AM
John and all, I have been reading with fascination this thread for a few weeks now. Are you a Time Traveler, John? I do not know. You make an interesting and compelling case, regardless of whether I or anyone else believes that you are.
The whole concept of time travel -- with its myriad possibilities due to an action occurring in one brief moment -- is mind-boggling. To imagine for a moment that a single event sets off unforeseen consequences, and knowing that this happens in infinite numbers at all times, can be quite humbling.
Take, if you will, a chain of events which happened to me within the past day. While proceeding to get my two year old a cup of milk last evening, I somehow managed to lose the cap off of the milk carton. My wife then poured the milk into a pitcher and placed it back inside the refrigerator. This morning my two year old went to help himself to another cup of milk, and you guessed it, he dropped the pitcher spilling the contents all over our kitchen floor. This made me 10 minutes later beginning my commute to work, and possibly saved my life as I was not involved in a car accident that occurred where I normally would have been had I left at my normal time.
I only mention the above because it seems that even the fact of my encountering this thread on this website seems to all be interconnected somehow.
This brings me to another point. I have been very moved by some of John's accounts, as well as others, in relation to the projected upcoming strife and war. I said I have a two year old boy, which means he is the approximate same age as John. If these prognostications are true, then I certainly do not like what is foreboded for my children.
I, personally, am not surprised at this picture because I have foretold this scenario myself, not by implementing any time traveling means, but through observation and analysis. A person only needs to look at the recent presidential election to see that a war is a distinct possiblitiy involving rural America versus the cities. Look at how the electoral college played out. Al Gore carried the heavily populated east and west coasts, with the rural areas between basically favoring George W. Bush. The mainstream media tried to portray this as proving how close to the "center" the electorate is. I, however, hold an opposing viewpoint in that I believe it shows just how polarized we have become. The rural areas want more of a traditional America with traditional family values. I predicted an imminent violent uprising even before the election, and I still hold to this belief. I hope I am wrong.
Do I own a gun? No, but I certainly support the Second Amendment and a person's right to do so.
Take care all of you, and God bless America!
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-06-2001 12:30 PM
All very interesting David up previous. I really do not see rural America really interested in starting an uprising. What is bothering people to me, is constant lay-offs and the changing of life in the Information Age. Some refuse to need this new kind of thinking, ushered in by people using computer more. This grand thing called the computer to make life easier has also had its drawbacks. I wish that America would look into a Think Tank type of operation for thinking about issues and quality first, but then I guess that would not be America anymore. People I guess, feel that they are shoved around, but that is nothing different than previous management from the past. The social problems are a relatively few individuals, whom other people hear more about on the news.
I suggest everyone listen to talk-radio more, only a few shows on TV are worth watching.
As one person put it, greed is driving America, and some feel at the loss of interaction between people. People have their opinions, but like arse-holes, everyone got one, and for the most part, opinions are just a form of belief system held by the individual. People see panic where there may be none.
I put it this way, upper management looks at America and the way individuals are acting and says "I put the operation overseas", well, at least to me.
Its all concerned with how much of the moola people can have. That may not lead to anything. Combined with taxes and people talk about change.
The best way is still the old way, write your Congress People and keep at it. Most people complain but that is ordinary too.
Life could be a lot harder, we have become slack for saying lack of money to spend on anything. People have no fear, if they do something wrong, they will not suffer the punishment that is needed to correct the situation.
I got the opinion that baby-boomers were treated too good, for some of them, and afterall, I am a baby-bummer, like some of the rest.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-06-2001 02:40 PM
Not much was mentioned about the Middle East (Arab Countries). What happens there? Wiped mostly out like Europe? (WWIII)
Posted by Barbara Clements on 03-06-2001 09:12 PM
So it doesn't matter that the Pied Piper is leading you off the cliff? Only that you have a smile on your face as you go down. Well then, all I have to say to you is have a nice trip.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-07-2001 12:04 AM
We live in this world. Not to misuse anyone or site or thing:
Here's a few, I use to have more, now who's looking?
England, and BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/
Ireland and the Internet: http://www.nua.ie/ wrote the book about the upcoming digital age for the US. Government.
Antarctica through Australia: http://www.antdiv.gov.au/
The Constitution: http://www.constitution.org/
Congress but through another website:
Now China can also be reached, 16 million on Internet, HongKong, Japan.
The world got small, so when we assume that America with Canada with Brazil are the only ones on the Internet,
I always wonder who looking at what on the Internet.
Well, that my speech, that all you'll hear. Who may care anyway?
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-07-2001 09:07 AM
Albert Cattoir: "All very interesting David up previous. I really do not see rural America really interested in starting an uprising. What is bothering people to me, is constant lay-offs and the changing of life in the Information Age. "
If you can't see this (rural America, for one) then you are not looking. It is as plain as your image in the mirror.
"People I guess, feel that they are shoved around, but that is nothing different than previous management from the past. The social problems are a relatively few individuals, whom other people hear more about on the news. "
People are being shoved around. I have been having some serious family problems this past week. I won't go into details, but, let us say that someone can make an accusation against another in todays society and the person being accused is arrested, held for up to 72 hours without seeing a judge (thereby missing work, school, perhaps getting fired or failing classes) all because someone made a FALSE ACCUSATION! This actually happened so dont come back telling me it DOESN'T happen. The social problems we see on the news are indeed the most news-worthy, at least in the sense of the media. However, a LOT of people are having problems in society, from taxes to government intervention where there should be neither.
People, in short, in America are FED UP with government intervention. They are fed up with people attacking their rights because of a few bad apples.
Your suggestion of talk radio is right on the mark. Folks really should be listening to alternative news sources. They are accurate, truthful and most importantly, cover things and facts that the main-stream media does not cover.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-07-2001 09:47 AM
It's refreshing to hear someone besides me taking a passionate stand on something. Keep it up buddy .
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-07-2001 09:48 AM
Yes, that has happened to me also.
Sense of humor?
Well, would you look at that? What is that suppose to be?
An ET. No, just a crazy human running around with his arms wavering over his head. Oh!
Posted by Dan Richardson on 03-07-2001 10:03 AM
Before I pose my questions to John, I would like to take this opportunity to point out to all participants in this thread that regardless of whether one believes in the validity of John's claims, it is wonderful to see people engaging in a discussion that pushes participants to present their opinions and questions based on ones individual experiences, philosophies, and knowledge. What worries me most about our future is that we, as a civilization, seem to be more interested in being spoon-fed our opinions on any given issue because it is much easier to take another's word for it, rather than ask questions and come to our own conclussion. I apologize if I am rambling on, but I felt it necessary to point out that if we don't ask ourselves and each other the hard questions and participate in discussions, we will always have to take someone else's word it.
Now, my question for John:
How does time travel affect our future(no pun intended) exploration of the universe?
It seems that the geatest obstacles in our way right now are a matter of energy (propulsion technology) and economic feasibility. It seems to me that time travel technology could neatly takes care of both.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-07-2001 10:31 AM
Hope things work out, Rick.
Maybe its a rememberance as a child, but the closet I ever came to having a distinct feeling of helplessness, and maybe hopelessness, was during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Now, Pres. Kennedy was not going to allow Russia to move missiles into Cuba, at any time by any means. When broadcast on TV, his speech was so that many may have thought that the end of the World just might occur.
Back then, no one even thought of the possibility of what a War meant, just that it may happen.
Hopefully everything works out, and the future does not have this really occuring.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-07-2001 11:18 AM
I still like the topic time travel, well at least in this minute.
Last dreadful reply.
1) It occurs sooner now, it occurs later, it does not occur at all. I am telling you the future.
2) Missiles come in from some other country. Hit cities.
How many cities hit around Washington D.C. Does the President or anyone in Congress, or any leader escape in Air Force One? Only 12 or so minutes before dead. Out to Andrews Air Force base, very fast in helicopter, 5 minutes, ususally takes 10 minutes. Jet lifts off, climbs up, oops, caught in blast. All leaders dead. No, maybe a Senator is alive. Goood! Go fine Senator, leader at moment. Why? What are the nuclear silo people doing? Will the country launch another attack? Are their nuclear silo people still alive?
Both are, stay down there for months. No contact with any civilization. Who got authority to tell them not to launch another attack? I do not know. Waving arms at all nuclear silo bunkers, with radiation suit on. Please do not launch another attack. Humans stll exist. I do not know if through their camera, they can even see me. Who got authority? Did that person communicate with these trained personnel? How?
All communication may be down. How do we contact these trained personnel with orders that may include, "Launch all missiles if no sign of life after a certain period of time?
My scenario, all life ends, some life may exist?, it never happens.
Posted by David R Ferguson on 03-07-2001 11:44 AM
I, too, wish and hope that things work out for you. I have also seen too many times when just the false accusation has ruined peoples' lives.
People in this country are tired of the Constitution being trampled upon by those in power, and it does seem to be that those in the predominantly rural areas of the country are the most upset about the continued erosion of personal freedom by an increasingly intrusive federal government. John's description of the future in the relative short term does appear highly plausible.
My oldest son wanted me to ask if you have any siblings. I apologize in advance if you have already answered this previously, but I do not recall you mentioning anyone other than yourself and your parents in your prior messages.
Also, are you still planning on broadcasting your departure via a broadcast over the Internet? That would be quite interesting.
Is there still an NCAA basketball tournament in 2036, and if so, has it expanded from its current 64 team format?
Please answer at your earliest convenience.
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-07-2001 04:48 PM
I’ve been pondering you and the philosophy that you’ve printed here and it occurred to me:
John Titor – anagram “I John Trot”
Is this possible? In 18th Century pantomime Clown was also known as John Trot,Clodpole and Clodpate. This character often played opposite Harlequin and Columbine. In the Frederic Bastiat economic sophism “The Tax Collector” Clodpate played the tax collector who was extracting tax from vintner James Goodfellow. James asks of Clodpate how he will benefit from paying an extortionate tax:
James: And what benefit do I derive from it today?
Clodpate: The satisfaction of saying:
How proud I am to be a Frenchman
When I behold the triumphal column!
James: And the humiliation of leaving to my heirs an estate burdened with a rent that they will have to pay for all time to come. Still, one really must pay one's debts, however foolishly the money may have been spent.
Is it true? Is your nom de plum an anagram telling us that you are Clown poking fun at both the government and us?
Posted by John Titor on 03-07-2001 06:24 PM
((Is this possible? In 18th Century pantomime Clown was also known as John Trot,Clodpole and Clodpate. This character often played opposite Harlequin and Columbine. In the Frederic Bastiat economic sophism “The Tax Collector” Clodpate played the tax collector who was extracting tax from vintner James Goodfellow. James asks of Clodpate how he will benefit from paying an extortionate tax))
Unfortunately, I’m not that well read. But it does look like an interesting story and I will be sure to pick it up if it sparks a connection between it and me. Madam I’m Adam…that’s the only one I know.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-07-2001 07:12 PM
((Unfortunately, I’m not that well read.))
Nah fa real? Your to modest .
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-07-2001 10:14 PM
I know...it was stretch. But your political humor would be appreciated by Clodpate in any case.
And: dios mio, Javier. Calmete. Whether John is real or not, he hasn't asked me for any money, hasn't tried to sell me anything and isn't "pumping & dumping" penny stocks. I happen to like the John Trot anagram because John Trot is humorous as is John Titor.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-07-2001 10:36 PM
Hey Darby, tu habals Español too? I'm more of Spanglish then Spanish and English. But I can still roll my "R's" as good as the best of them. I'm a real motoRrrrrrrr .
P.S. I know John is humorous, that's why I gave a little smile at the end.
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-07-2001 11:04 PM
Thanks for confirming that you too can see the humor in this thread. For me its a bit like coming home to my favorite TV program. We post one evening, go to bed and then when I get home from work the next day I can't wait to see the next chapter in the story.
Oh, yeah. I do speak Spanish...I even pick up my bi-lingual allowance every payday. Growing up in Santa Barbara County it was a must...my friends spoke Spanish at home. Little did I know "way back when" how much money I'd make because I took those classes just because I enjoyed them. (Sorry Mary & Keith - I know...OT)
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-08-2001 12:37 AM
This evening I was involved in following up on your reference material from your postings on another site. And guess what? As I was following the Frank Tipler/Tipler sinusoid material I landed on the "Ultimate Bulletin Board" Time Travel thread.
There were the Big Three from this thread: You as TimeTravel_0, Pamela, Javier and one other fellow on page 11...Trott.
I believe that I nailed the anagram. And I swear, I didn't peak at the Ultimate Bulletin Board first. I nailed Trot last night and found Trott tonight.
Posted by Barbara Clements on 03-08-2001 03:39 AM
Tried to find this Ultimate Bulletin Board, but am not allowed in, because one must be a member. Can you list the site? Am I at the right site address?
Posted by John Titor on 03-08-2001 07:32 AM
((There were the Big Three from this thread: You as TimeTravel_0, Pamela, Javier and one other fellow on page 11...Trott. ))
((I believe that I nailed the anagram. And I swear, I didn't peak at the Ultimate Bulletin Board first. I nailed Trot last night and found Trott tonight.))
I find this interesting because it gives me a very tempting easy out. I could now rest assured that someone had “figured me out” and I can relax before I leave.
However, I am not Trott and this name and TTO are the only names I’ve used online. After looking at my name here, have you considered its origin from another word-play standpoint? For example, TITOR could equal TIme-Travel-OR.
After looking at your name Mr. Darby, I can pull out “MEET ME TAR BABY” which I’m assuming is a reference to the Song of the South. In that case, are you telling us in a secret way that you are trying to distract us by fooling us in the bre’r patch?
I would not insult your collective intelligence by leaving a hook out there for you to discover while I was making sport of you. Whether I’m a time traveler or not, I think we’ve spoken about many important things I would not want to diminish.
Posted by Craig Cuthbert on 03-08-2001 08:22 AM
One of John's messages is one of impending Civil War (or some kind of war)
If you haven't noticed, this generation is Ready to Rumble
DELTONA -- A fifth-grade boy on Tuesday threatened to bring a gun to Sunrise Elementary School, one day after a school shooting in Southern California left two people dead and 13 others injured.
... With the nation on edge over a deadly school shooting in San Diego, more incidents of school violence were reported Wednesday, but no one was killed. In Pennsylvania, police commended a teen-ager who, after a classmate was shot inside their crowded cafeteria, persuaded the alleged shooter to drop her gun.
...In the jittery two days after the deadly shootings at Santana High School, at least 11 California students were arrested and several more suspended for reportedly making threats against classmates or bringing real or fake weapons to schools.
...Authorities in Washington state arrested a student Wednesday for allegedly bringing a gun to Kentwood High School in suburban Seattle.
...Three junior high school students in San Bernardino County were arrested Tuesday for threatening to place a bomb on a teacher’s desk
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-08-2001 08:26 AM
I don’t know about you being well read, but I do know your well taught in matters of not wanting to apper manipulative to your fans .
Posted by Randy Empey on 03-08-2001 11:05 AM
quote:Actually, I have a question (which is along very simmular lines as what I think John is getting at) that I want to see you answer: Can you prove or disprove anything? And if your answer to that is 'Yes.' then I'd also like to have you prove it.
Prove what? All I did was point out John’s discrepancies. I think it's proof enough, if you can see what he's said in past post, and what he says now. It doesn't match up.
First things first: Prove what? Well, that you can prove anything, for starters.
Discrepancies in written material isn't proof enough of anything.
It certainly is important information, and thanks for pointing out what you have.
But please stop pretending it is proof of anything.
There still is room for AT LEAST a reasonable doubt, both ways, here . . . and the generally accepted norm is to assume an individual not-guilty of a crime until they can be prooven guilty without a reasonable doubt.
Timetravel ain't a crime, I'm fairly certain.
But lying certainly seems like one.
So lets assume John not-guilty of lying about being a time-traveler until you can prove to us that he isn't without a reasonable doubt.
You still won't be able to prove it absolutely though, so don't pretend you can.
And, just so you know, I don't think the above is a proof, but I do think it elliminates many reasonable doubts about my argument.
Lets let John and my fellow 'lemmings' talk philosophy, physics and about the human condition, and cut down a bit on the evil-timetraveler rhetoric, OK?
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-08-2001 01:47 PM
Let's see, John, you are a time-traveler or not.
Your story is true or not.
Interesting anyway, hoped you used some of the links.
Posted by Jay Richards on 03-08-2001 02:20 PM
John, I want to be sure to get this Q out before you might stop posting here. I've read a number of posts, but I'll go back and read the entire thread afterwards, so sorry if this has been adequatly covered already.
From your perspective of posting as a time traveller from 2036, please tell if any significant theistic events occur between now and then and if so, please describe.
(That question does not directly pertain to religion)
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-08-2001 03:10 PM
<<However, I am not Trott and this name and TTO are the only names I’ve used online. After looking at my name here, have you considered its origin from another word-play standpoint? For example, TITOR could equal TIme-Travel-OR.
After looking at your name Mr. Darby, I can pull out “MEET ME TAR BABY” which I’m assuming is a reference to the Song of the South. In that case, are you telling us in a secret way that you are trying to distract us by fooling us in the bre’r patch? >>
Actually, John, I did consider Time-Travel-OR based on the moniker TimeTravel_O elsewhere. I didn’t consider that as a possibility as it begs the question, “Time Travel-OR what?”
It’s never been my motivation to attack your veracity. Whether you are an actual time traveler or not doesn’t concern me. I did consider that you might have opted to create your own foil in Trott (or even Javier) to create a sophistic dialogue through which your message is delivered. You and Trott – Phaedo and Echerates of Phlius: instead of discussing the four arguments of immortality while lamenting the suicide of Socrates, you discuss the possibility of time travel and the society of our not too distant future. I still find you to be humorous and thought inspiring.
Oh, the anagram of my name: Emmett is my first name and "Darby" is a nickname taken from my last name, Darbyshire. I hope that my Gaelic ancestors didn’t play a joke on me by giving me that last name and having my parents give me that first name.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-08-2001 07:34 PM
So am I to assume that there is no way of truly answering your prove it question? Especially here in a forum, where anyone can fabricate anything and try to pass if off as the genuine truth.
So I guess however you put it, we can't prove anything here. And in the end, we'll still be asking the questions, "Was John telling the truth” “Was he a real Time Traveler"?
I personally don't believe him, but you and others may think other wise. I only trust what I can feel inside my guts. They have never steered me wrong before. I got a Spidey Sense .
Can't prove that either, but I'm not here to convince you of anything. I just call'em how I see'em, that's all.
Posted by Craig Cuthbert on 03-08-2001 09:28 PM
John - Could you give us your reaction to the following. It is from another folder on these school shootings. And BTW, what are yourt thoughts on what's happened this week throughout the country. We had a kid run over four college students in Sta. Cruz and a rash of weapons related inceidents in High Schools throughout the country.
Here's an excerpt. I hope Mr. Hamner does not mind
"I was talking to a dear friend of mine last night. He seemed very upset so I asked what was up and if I could help.
He related that his 14 year old son was now in the custody of the police. I asked what had happened. He then told that his son and some other boys had just gotten into paintball. On the school bus they'd talk about the games they were playing. The bus driver understood that it was only paintball. Anyway, the bus driver told the boys that "they were just plain evil" at that my friends son told the bus driver "no, if I was evil I'd shoot you" (not smart in todays enviroment), this happen monday afternoon. On Tuesday night the sheriff's department showed up and arrested his son, took him to the juvenile detetion center. As of last night my friend had been unable to talk to his child. He has met with the school officials, the principle was unaware of the incident."
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-08-2001 10:50 PM
If you don't mind me asking, what are you hoping to accomplish by having John answer this?
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-09-2001 12:19 AM
I'm with Javier on this one. Other than being just another guy on the street what difference does it make what John feels about the four incidents (count 'em, four) you referred to?
There wasn't a rash of incidents. There was one major incident at a school followed by editors running as lead stories anything that involved a kid and a weapon nationwide. No San Diego incident = no "rash" (the wire services wouldn't pick up on the stories) And a small correction. Unless UC Santa Cruz ALSO had four students run over, it was UC Santa Barbara (actually in Isla Vista) where the students were run over - about two miles from my home and 250 miles from Santa Cruz.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-09-2001 01:18 AM
According to a talk-show host that looked all over the country and was talking about it on his show, there was a "rash" of incidents with school kids. Let's see, Thursday.
I think the kids think its "cool" to be able to talk to their other peers and tell them about what they do. Well, something has to be done about this. I would tell you what the talk-show host and others blame it on, but that would probably start a debate that never ended. Some parents were acting strange also. Parents taking a base-ball bat to school to, I guess, be arrested. Strange people. Try the relaxation response. It takes time to work, maybe a month, be when you feel deeper relaxed, you will know. Concentrate on your breathing and quiet your brain activity so you dwell on no one thought, let them pass just out without dwelling on life's problems. Negative thoughts you have to consciously do, it takes practice, say cancel, cancel to yourself should one come in. In a quiet place, and undisturbed for about 20 minutes.
Something else needs to be taught to kids in school.
What has all this to do with time travel?
This thread has a life of its own, traveling itself through time. It may end up in the year 2036, before its done.
Posted by Craig Cuthbert on 03-09-2001 05:58 AM
Not to get too morbid, though its interesting to me, as the premise of John's situation is that in 2012 the world is at war. Not hard to see why, with a whole generation of kids wondering if they're next to see a friend go postal.
There's more to this topic, ten year olds become 20 year olds and carry the day etc. Its not a stretch to believe a civil war is imminent. That's all
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-09-2001 06:53 AM
"There wasn't a rash of incidents. There was one major incident at a school followed by editors running as lead stories
anything that involved a kid and a weapon nationwide. No San Diego incident = no "rash" (the wire services wouldn't
pick up on the stories) And a small correction. Unless UC Santa Cruz ALSO had four students run over, it was UC
Santa Barbara (actually in Isla Vista) where the students were run over - about two miles from my home and 250 miles
from Santa Cruz."
Actually... there was a rash of incidents. I'm aware of seven different things that happened here in Colorado yesterday, alone. I'm certain there were dozens of other such incidents throughout the country yesterday.
Here we had 2 bomb threats, 3 "civil disturbances" at other schools in other areas, and there was a kid here that placed a "fake bomb" in a school in Colorado Springs. There was reference to something else like a gun being found in another school somewhere, but I didn't catch the location.
So.. that was just MY state. How about other states?
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-09-2001 07:03 AM
I need to continue this thought here. First of all, we have in most of our school systems something called a "Zero Tolerance Policy". This equates to a "Zero Common Sense Policy" based upon the busdriver incident alone. Anyone listing to the kids talk would understand the kid didnt make a threat, he made a statement.
We have a society where political correctness (read: Thought Control) is the norm. Kids aren't allowed to carry a pocket knife (I carried a HUNTING KNIFE on my belt when I was in grade school, in Kentucky... as I walked through the woods to school. No one ever said ANYTHING to be about it.)
Anything that can be construed as a weapon is banned, even if it isn't a weapon.
The media has the attitude that banning this or that is newsworthy (i.e. guns, kids getting in to fights in school etc).
So, what we really have (all of this above, plus all the other little things that nag at us every day) is a society waiting for something bigger to trigger something else.
Now, I'm not saying that we're waiting for that civil war, but I AM saying that we have placed ourselves in a very sensitive, precarious position by making everything so "hair-trigger" likely to put something else into motion.
Time moves forward for us, and those nodal points of change can be anywhere in our future.
Posted by Lee Heggy on 03-09-2001 07:11 AM
Judging by the endurance of this thread if Mr. Titor is a time traveler or not will be a moot point. When this topic is done he will be in his own time.
Posted by John Titor on 03-09-2001 07:52 AM
I think the day when animals are born, raised on a farm, slaughtered within 15 to 50 miles of that farm, and sold in the area, is just about OVER. This outbreak is, in my opinion, the swan song for local farming. I can hear the very large lady warbling in the background...
If, the virus was released because of the bombing of Iraq in Feb., then there is ONE more Country that remains to be punished. The US. If the UK was an act of agraterrorism, then what hell awaits the US?
Of course, please keep in my, this is pure speculation...there is no hard data in to support this theory...YET.
Greetings everyone. I do plan to get to the questions soon. I have been quite busy lately so I apologize for being a bit slow.
In my travels over your web, I came across this section of a speculative news article. I would urge you all to take a good hard look at this idea and consider the possibility that it is true. And…..no, I did not make this up nor am I trying to tell you something in a left-handed way.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-09-2001 08:36 AM
A comment from "the intel department". I follow global intelligence extremely closely. Some of us in my security community believe that Mad Cow disease is not speculative terrorism, it is fact. No proof, but many, many talking points on the subject can show it. I'll give you some examples.
1) The west uses more beef/red meat products than ANY OTHER COUNTRY - in fact more than most other countries put together.
2) Eco-terrorism, by some of the anti-meat eaters has been considered, but at the same time, it is not conducive to them to kill animals, because the majority of non-meat eaters in western culture believe "animals have rights" and would consider such a thing a type of genocide.
3) Biological warfare is indeed the greatest threat to our society. It is cheap, easy to produce, easy to release, and most importantly... biological warfare is "Stealth Warfare". Biological agents can be released as an aerosol, into water, into food.
4) What better way to destroy a country than to screw up their food sources. By creating a messed up animal supply, you thrust the prices of meat skyward, quickly. You cause the production to drop, loss of wages, loss of profit, loss of food supplies. You put a strain on several other food sources to take up for the lost portion of production.
5) A sudden and deadly resurgence of a disease that hasn't really been a problem for decades is a very obvious attack. This is the very reason people believe things like AIDS is a biological agent that got loose on society. It appeared quickly in the 80s. It could not be traced, and what little tracing they showed, claimed it came from "monkeys" or apes or something (I don't recall the specifics at this point). However, AIDS like other such diseases can not simply "begin to exist" without mutations or some other intervention. Mad Cow disease, as well as Hoof and Mouth disease (what we call it in America - they call it Foot and Mouth in the UK) has suddenly appeared with a vengence. The former is a relatively new disease. The latter is very old, but, was pretty much wiped out. Suddenly, it is back.
So, we have two things specifically in the UK that are attacking hoofed creature. Both of which are either new or resurgences of old diseases. These diseases came about at roughly the same time, and spread rapidly.
I believe (and I've not had a lot of time to research it, but then, I'm betting it will be very difficult right now to track it precisely) that this most recent outbreak occured in several places simultaneously. If so, it was definately a planned and probably well carried-out attack.
America is NEXT. But, not only will it be something like Hoof and Mouth, Mad Cow something else will likely be introduced as well. Swine flu, something that attacks chickens and perhaps some kind of wheat blight. That would hit MAJOR portions of our food supplies, causing all the aforementioned problems, plus more.
A major economic crash is likely. THis would weaken the US to a great extent opening us up for other types of attacks.
Currently America is under attack by several former states of the Soviet Union, many arab states and terrorist organizations already. They are coming in through computers and networks, probing constantly, looking for weaknesses, testing our defenses and looking for the proper time and place to make a major attack.
Things to watch:
A) Increased internet attacks.
B) A MAJOR attack on the internet.
C) Sudden outbreak of any sort of weird animal diseases.
D) Increased readiness of the military in the US.
E) Increased movements of the military in the US.
F) Increased public awareness of police force training, particularily in computer attacks, raids finding "illegal guns".
G) Attacks on "militia groups" again.
When the latter occurs, be prepared for the Pro-Consitution forces to get loud, and "in-your-face" attitudes. They will not stand for more attacks on the Second Amendment.
Anyway - those are from my point of view. Whether I am completely accurate or not, remains to be seen. However, I believe my data is accurate, and I am not usually wrong on the "big picture".
Posted by Bob Marz on 03-09-2001 08:53 AM
John, busy? You mean you have other things to do on your vacation besides talk to us?
Darby mentioned a few posts ago that he thought possibly the Javier personna might be a "sophisticated dialogue" construct of our time-traveller for self dialogue. Eh? We need to examine your definition of "sophisticated."[Edited by Bob Marz on 03-09-2001 at 09:06 AM]
Posted by John Titor on 03-09-2001 03:27 PM
((Darby mentioned a few posts ago that he thought possibly the Javier personna might be a "sophisticated dialogue" construct of our time-traveller for self dialogue. ))
Had you considered the possibility that Javier is the one who made me up? But, as we both know Bob, I am YOUR alter ego.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-09-2001 08:37 PM
Do I sense some covert hostility in that last remark?
Just keeping you honest, how you said I do .
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-09-2001 09:32 PM
Have you considered the possibility that I made up both Javier and John?
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-09-2001 10:38 PM
Hahaha . Right Pamela. That’s really funny.
And everyone is just a figment of my imagination after all just like I always suspected.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-09-2001 10:53 PM
The moral implications for the future are real enough. Ever since the US had to construct the atom bomb, moral questions of what we are doing now seem to last longer.
Take that we, as people, as humans, are getting into enough gray areas with human cloning, using human embryos, and such topics of the day, I think the moral questions will be around longer than they were in the past. Never before this time had we had to ask ourselves the morality of civilization. Nuclear weapons are still not really solved, we seem as humans to be digging a hole ourselves with these questions which can seem to imply that the probability of future events being grim becomes more real as we grapple with these questions.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-10-2001 11:51 AM
But you think Time Travel is Okay?
Just want to make sure I'm understanding where you stand. Because there is so much hypocrisy in the world these days. Where some people claim they are against something bad, but not against something else that's bad. Which when you look at it, there one in the same. See what I'm saying?
Posted by Joe Applebaum on 03-10-2001 02:16 PM
Question for John:
You say that you wear some kind of flight suit like coveralls when you are time traveling and that you experience 2 g's for 6-8 hrs. How is it possible to withstand that kind of g-force for such a long period without the use of an anti-g suit? If not to keep you from blacking out, at least to make your time travel safer and more confortable? I know you must be physically trained for space travel, but you should also have the benefit of equipment to help you out.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-10-2001 04:27 PM
Being in a free country dictates that certain people will do certain experiments(?) without regard to who complain's about it. The rest of us are left to decide other alternative actions to prevent these leaps of technology from interferring with humanity on (as) a whole. I had little choice in the making of a atom bomb. If the US did not do it, than it is probable that Hilter would have. With that, things in the future would be indeed different. So, as with anything, we are (forced, as in War) to do a certain number of things. In peace, we are still (forced) to see what other countries are up to. The fear of America is that if we fall behind, then someone someway will take control of us. In the case of the Middle East, I suppose that would be Saddam. In the case of a time traveler, I doubt he could achieve such a possibility unless he knew every "connection" to change the events of history. That part was described in that book by Jonathan Burke in the book "Connections". I make no commitment as to the morality of time travel. Someone will do it, if it's possible, someday. Otherwise, we have no freedom. We are left to change things in the future should enough people agree that time travel is a "bad" thing. But then there might be "bad" people time traveling and "good" people time traveling in a kind of "time travel war".
Posted by John Titor on 03-10-2001 07:26 PM
Dear Fellow Time Travelers:
In about 30 days, I will be leaving this worldline to return home to 2036. I first want to say thank you for the wonderful conversation and insight into your society. I have learned a great deal and my opinion on quite a few things has changed dramatically.
I will finish the questions that have been posted on this site up to this date. Unfortunately, I must now spend my spare time preparing to leave and I will not be on the computer very much. I do however want to repeat my offer and add a slight twist.
After going over my flight plan home, I have discovered my VGL holdover period is a bit longer than I expected. I will be spending at least three weeks in April of 1998 as I make my way back to 1975. Therefore, I not only offer you the chance to leave a message to yourself in 2036 but I offer you the chance to leave yourself a message in 1998. I will take any compiled messages and email addressees you provide and send them on the net when I get to 1998.
Granted, this will not affect you on your worldline now but you make take some comfort that another “you” on another worldline has the advantage of knowing something you wish you knew three years ago. Based on the earlier questions I’ve seen, I’ve decided a day-to-day record of the Dow a day in advance should convince you that the messages are real in 1998.
In addition, I am hopeful a series of photocopies and photographs will be available for you that may give you more insight into the technology of the distortion unit. I will let you know the address of the site when it is available. I also plan to have my parents videotape my departure. If they succeed, it will also be posted after I leave.
I look forward to these last few weeks with my family and I will check in periodically to check this site.
Live in Peace 2001,
Posted by Bob Marz on 03-10-2001 09:19 PM
Maybe Moe Howard is a "sophisticated dialogue" device for Steven Hawkings?
Well, Johnny, you've been entertaining for the most part. Nevertheless, I find it rather depressing that time travel, the most exciting and profound accomplishment of man, is being put to such banal and frivolous use. The most wonderful invention possible in all of human history and they apparently can't figure out what to do with it other than arrange for you to amuse us few idjits here on the Art Bell message board. Kinda makes ya proud. (thniff)[Not edited by the future Bob Marz on 03-10-2036 at 09:21 PM - message being sent back to 2001] [Edited by Bob Marz on 03-10-2001 at 09:27 PM]
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-10-2001 11:35 PM
Good luck in whatever worldline you return to.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-11-2001 01:10 AM
Well I had a hard time getting through what all your rhetoric was about. And still didn't see you actually answer my question. “Where do you stand?” Well that’s not important now, as I see that you believe John Titor, A.k.a. TT_0 is for real. So thank you for proving my point correctly.
Hypocrisy I tell you.
First you came off as inspirational, speaking with convictions about right and wrong. But in the end, you’re only as much a hypocrite as the rest of us are.
I however do not tolerate immoralities on any level, and I live my life according to basic human law. Compassion and principal our my guiding truths. “We the people” should realize this, and not accept what is basically wrong. There have been to many compromises, too much acceptation. But the truth is clear, that despite all of what we are trying to accomplish, of becoming an advance civilization and people, we are failing in the worst possible way. And that is by following our principles.
Just think about that...
I see you finally made your big pre-farewell speech. Very nice, you almost made me feel sorry to see you go. Then I remembered what you are. An opportunist.
Well wherever you go, just remember me! And know that wherever you stand, that somewhere someone with enough guts exists to change the entire face of Time Travel someday. Your days are numbered…
30 more days huh John? You know that’s a very interesting number. Because I’m going to FL in 30 days also, coincidence huh?
Let’s see in 1998, I was 18 years old. I graduated high school that year good year. Except for some personal problems. I wrote a story that year about my new experiences, I think you read it before Pamela. Remember “Displacement?”
Catch-ya on the flip side,
Posted by Stephen McKay on 03-11-2001 02:37 AM
These messages to oneself in 1998 sound very interesting.
Is there somewhere I can e-mail it to rather than post it on the board?
Posted by Michelle Esposito on 03-11-2001 03:59 AM
John, I'd like to take you up on your offer for the 1998 message to myself. I assume your instructions will appear on this thread . . .
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-11-2001 04:15 AM
Geeeez Louise... See now that's what I'm talking about, right there.
Talk about being a lost soul.
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-11-2001 06:10 AM
John has asked me if I wouldnt mind collecting the emails for him again and forwarding them to him.
anybody who wants to can write me using my email address found in my profile and I will forward your letters or "messages to 1998" ,"messages to 2036" to John.
All messages I receive I will keep confidential and they will be forwarded right to John.
Posted by LaMar Prince on 03-11-2001 06:23 AM
I would like to E-Mail You. I would like to Leave message. Like the the Poster said I'm sure You will leave instructions?.........Peace! L>P>
Posted by Randy Empey on 03-11-2001 07:08 AM
Didn't you ever play 'pretend' as a child?
Also, why do you feel that you have such a firm grasp on reality right now that you can say such things with such certainty?
I find that, usually, those who shout 'hypocrisy' from the rooftops are trying to draw attention from thier own.
Their are so many untruths and myths that bombard us daily, either through design or simply the uncertain nature of communication, that we ALL swallow hook-line-and-sinker that most the things you think you know are wrong.
Since there is no firm basis to rate new experiences about, generalizing from past experiences can be a dangerous game of darts.
Reserving judgement and thinking things through is warranted.
Quite being so loud the rest of us "can't" think.
Everybody has an agenda. Everybody has shortcomings.
BBSes are fantasy worlds by nature, and nothing you try can change that.
Let the people who still remember how to pretend play thier games without too much trouble and you won't get called names on the 'playground'.
Life's all a big play anyway. (Probably a play within a play . . .)
Let the guy play out his 'final scene' if he wants . . .
. .. wait, maybe I'm infringing on your pretending .. .
... if I am, my sincere apologies.
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-11-2001 08:45 AM
So long and have a good trip home.
As I've pondered your experience of being here it ocurred to me that I should cover my bases and at least try to make a living from the information that you've given us. So...
I'm in the process of filing copyright protection in my name for the following terms:
Temporal Displacement Unit
Variable Gravity Lock
Variable Gravity Lock Model C204
Variable Gravity Lock Model C206
Singularity Magnetic Field Coil
Electron Mass Injection Manifold
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-11-2001 09:58 AM
First, I'll keep the social demise in mind.
Second, I do not believe.
Third, I do not think TT will be solved in my lifetime, therefore I do not have to have any morals about it.
That will be for some future person.
Fourth, from my viewpoint, it is just one of many possibilities that could occur in the future.
Fifth, if TTler is true, then wishing anything to him is just something that I wish upon myself also.
Sixth and most important. There have been problems associated with the theory presented that neither the TTler or I can resolve at this time, in my estimation, and I am usually right. So, for the other people, I leave them also with their thoughts.
I would discuss this in more detail about the problems associated but I really have got other things to do and these other things are really more important.
Seventh, to me it has been just an exercise in thought, and I think humankind have more immediate problems facing us now, that I see on other websites like the BBC in England and Talking Point or some of their news articles.
Eighth, that's all I can do now. I can not solve the technical problems associated with building a time machine.
Ninth, I getting close to the end of my post.
Tenth, when all else fails, count to ten.
Posted by E. Robert Gonzalez on 03-11-2001 10:19 AM
Hopefully you can answer my past questions before you leave and send that message out. It really has been enjoyable watching this thread and getting to know you John. There is a part of me that wants to believe and another that says your not a time traveler. But right now I believe you, and you being here means one way or another time travel is real. I only hope all my alternate selves are doing well. I was thinking though, if all these alternate timelines are so similar... Then shouldn't another "you" be doing the samething in another timeline, possibly in infinite time lines? Because if that is so, then another "you" would go back to our timeline in 1998 per se and we'd actually get the messages that people are sending. Now, I'm not sure if that is possible or not. But, in my understanding it seems likely with what you said about alternate universes.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-11-2001 10:31 AM
First, Good luck to you in your worldline.
Second, The things the TTler is talking about in the near future will not occur in your lifetime, to me.
Third, Have you visit this website, http://www.nist.gov/
There you will find a picture of an atomic clock at present.
Fourth, Our Solar System is near the edge on an arm of the Milky Way Galaxy.
Fifth, There may be a Black Hole at the center of our Galaxy.
Sixth, I think humankind will have to worry if the Sun, Sol, burns up first in 5,000,000,000 years or the Solar System gets sucked into the Black Hole at the center of our Galaxy.
Seventh, Still its nice to dream, or have a fantasy wish.
Eighth, I must really really go now.
Ninth, I will just say that social problems have been around forever on this Planet, and it is still traveling in space along with the Milky Way Galaxy, at what I think is, at about 33 miles/second. No need to be space-sick.
Tenth, Ever since I became, I been traveling through space and time. Just trying to have a little fun in the great demise of things, all past, all present, all future, all, all.
Best wishes to everyone on this forum and the world and "Just say No".
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-11-2001 10:49 AM
While, I probably get in trouble: specific links:
Good luck All![Edited by Mary Rowland on 03-11-2001 at 10:55 AM]
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-11-2001 10:51 AM
Oops, the other link, while I'm getting in trouble.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-11-2001 12:41 PM
In 2036 I will be in the mountains in Colorado. Somewhere west of where Colorado Springs used to be. Not sure if I will have access to the internet at that point, but I WILL have access to radio equipment. Somewhere around January 1-10th, 2036 I will be broadcasting on 28390 Khz, USB. I will look for you there on that frequency in the middle of the day.
I will 77 years old - and will turn 78 that year.
I expect to hear from you then.
PS - I AM one of the "farmer generals" John mentioned. Perhaps not the most famous... but, I will be there.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-11-2001 12:42 PM
Obviously you must not have been listening to what I been saying from the start.
And people blamed me for speaking for everyone.
((Quite being so loud the rest of us "can't" think.))
Is it perhaps because I make you think of what your doing, thus spoiling what you what you want to believe him as real?
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-11-2001 12:46 PM
I forgot to mention that I've also listed "John Titor" on the copyright application - just in case I want to write a book using that name as a character.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-11-2001 12:58 PM
After spending the last few days working on family business and keeping my mind busy thinking about time traveling, from John's point of view, I have come to a sudden and surprising conclusion.
John is perhaps what he says he is... however, I don't think he is a "TIME TRAVELER" - I think he is a world-line, or for lack of a better word, a dimension traveler.
I say this based on a couple of assumptions. His machine uses gravity calculations/measurements to maintain his "physical position".
But, he claims there is up to a 2.5 % divergence from his reality.
That means to me that:
1) He is NOT on his 'reality" but on ours.
2) He will be going back to his reality - or at least pretty close to it.
3) Our reality is not precisely his reality.
4) There are multiple worlds, multiple time lines if you will and he is no longer on his orginal one.
5) Anything he does here on our time line will NOT EFFECT OUR TIME LINE EXCEPT locally (time related). That is, if he were to kill someone's grandparents here, they would NOT cease to exist on HIS time line. They would here though. If he goes back to 1975 and does this, OUR grandparents will be JUST FINE. It is the ones on the time line where he stopped.
6) John's machine uses tipler cylinders - somehow. I believe it would be very possible to create a tipler cylinder using singularities. A physcist I know confirmed my suspicions on Friday-last. He stated that such a machine could be built now. He said that it would take some strong scientific work on the part of linear accelerator scientists though, and so far as he knew, it hasn't been accomplished YET, but will be in the very near future.
7) If microsingularities are made, they can be held in 'statis' or in a magnetic field in a vacuum. According to my physcist that is. If so, it would be possible to effect them with magnetic fields in such a manner as to allow them to interact with each other (on that micro scale).
8) If so - then it might be very possible to speed up, slow down or even STOP time altogether. In fact, he believes it possible to reverse time altogether.
9) The effects of using such a machine would be that "high gravitational fields would be present around the machine". However, at this point, neither myself, him nor other folks we talked to could come up with a way to measure gravity fields with any reliable method. (Scales, things like that work, but... that is rather crude I think).
10) Anything within the field of a tipler cylinder would be carried along with the device... the method of "travel" would or could be based on voltages applied to the magentic fields in some manner as to cause a change in the rotation of the field.
11) John's machine will not take him back in time. It takes him to a diffent time LINE, in a different world, on a different plane of existence.
Anyway, that's my 2-cents worth. Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps I'm right. No matter if John is a real TT or not is moot at this point.
John... take this message back in time to 1998 and ... how do you propose to see that we get these messages anyway????
I will post it on my web site, which is already up in 1998.
Posted by Jim Houlahan on 03-11-2001 01:51 PM
Although laboratory standard atomic clocks are huge, commercial standard atomic clocks are the size of a suitcase today. Given 35 years of future development, I can imagine four of them fitting into John's device. Here's a picture of the "suitcase atomic clock"...
Posted by Randy Empey on 03-11-2001 02:15 PM
Since I seldom sub-vocalize as I read, I don't think it matters whether I was listening or not . .. . I have been reading and trying my darndest to understand... from the start.
As to this question:
quote:Is it perhaps because I make you think of what your doing, thus spoiling what you what you want to believe him as real?
My answer is simply, "Of course not."
But you can pretend so if you wish. Pplease understand that delusion is often a team sport. Or is it that non-delusion is often a team sport?
Actually, I just have to wonder why you feel you have such a firm grasp on this reality that you feel confident in many of the things you have asserted.
But I guess I don't expect an answer, since I am merely a figment of someone else's imagination.
Either play by ALL the rules or throw them ALL out -- no middle of the road please, I am already confused.
Seems your journey will be forking from some of ours -- watch out and don't forget to smell the roses.
That said, lets disregared the sentimental stuff and keep up the philosophizing. How about a few more monologues from the main character here? The stage has been set, and your ques have been uttered.
(Javier -- if it sounds like I speak for more than just myself, please just chalk it up to schizophrenia or simmular talents.)[Edited by Randy Empey on 03-11-2001 at 02:21 PM]
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-11-2001 03:35 PM
You know what Randy?
I'd expect that kind of a responds from a John Titor supporter.
The only difference between you and me is, is that when I make a statement like that, but of speaking about morals and principles? I get an angry rowdy crowd who believes I'm waking them up from their fantasy. Hence the attacks.
And the difference is Randy, is that there are more of you then they are of me out there in this world. So no one will ever complain to you about being hostile, or not being open-minded. Your perfect, you fit right in the norm of things in society. You’re perhaps the majority of people who voted for Bill Clinton the second time around. The kinds of people that support same sex marriages. You’re also the kind of people that are waiting in line to get genetically engineered, or to clone your self. Or to just try every “New Fad” that comes into the market.
How low can this countries morals get? I’d hate to find out.
So yes I do have a firm grasp on reality. I’m not blind, I can see very clearly. And I know what needs to be fixed. Do you?
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-11-2001 04:42 PM
Thanks, Jim, I saw that page.
John, if you come back from the past or from the future,
can you call yourself "Power Time Traveler Ranger" in the "Way-back Laid-back Time Machine".
By the way, is there a way that a yellow school bus can be included in the time field as a way of travel?
That might scare anybody from the past or the future.
Just a thought.
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-11-2001 05:04 PM
For your sake, lets hope when you get discussed in the future, all of John's time travel buddies in his unit are as nice as he is............. hehe
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-11-2001 05:09 PM
Can you tell them to speed up the development of that device by the year 2014, and bring it down in price so that I can buy one?
I am not joking.
Just a thought.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-11-2001 05:20 PM
What's that suppose to mean? Sounded like a threat to me. Care to clearify?
Posted by Bob Marz on 03-11-2001 05:40 PM
Seems pretty clear to me.
"Darby": Good stuff!
Posted by Anthony Reed on 03-11-2001 05:56 PM
That seems clear to me too. I'm just sorry I'm late to this board. And why would you be worried anyway Javier? I thought you did not believe him anyway.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-11-2001 06:10 PM
Like you just said, your late to this board. Of course some details will be unknown to you. But rest assured, if you read back I answer that question.
Posted by Donnie Smith on 03-11-2001 08:44 PM
Rick, you are absolutely right. And, what John Titor has said reflects exactly that. John is from the end result of a reality shifting movement that is being given birth to now. They have recognized that time does not exist in the fashion that many believe in today, only infinite parallel realities in the same or different stages of history or alternative history. The term time travel is, however, the closest thing that humans of this period can relate to. In the future, it has been adjusted to refer to the illusion of traveling to the past or future. Those realities are mere reflections of where we have been and where we are going, but are by no means the real mc coy! Carry on John Titor, Peace from the Eye of Harmony of the Matrix of this Reality. Have a safe trip.
Posted by David R Ferguson on 03-12-2001 08:41 AM
Good luck to you. I do hope you make a visual record of your departure. Thank you for the interesting thread. And did you ever answer whether or not you have any siblings?
I have not decided whether or not you are a Time Traveler, but I do believe the near future you have described is a real possibility, if not even a probability. Let's all be prepared and pray for the best.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-12-2001 12:55 PM
Earlier in posts, if I understand it right, he said he was single. Many stillborn in the future because of the War according to him.
He will probably check back.
Just thought that I include that.
Posted by Ron Polesky on 03-12-2001 01:31 PM
Wow! I have just spent the better part of an entire day reading EVERY message within this thread and I must complement everyone on a fine job! This has been some of the most entertaining and thought provocative writing that I have read in a long time. Great job everyone! I extend my sincerest thanks, a hearty cheer and (as a first time poster) a warm hello.
To John Titor I reserve a special thanks for starting this thread! Your consistency in conjunction with an entertaining narrative complete with motive, ethics, physics, and general openness is amazing and enlightening to say the least. However, above all of that, your calm in facing some staunch and intelligent critics is an inspiration and something rarely found on message boards when one is met with the fire of emotion based in disbelief. If I take nothing else from this thread, your steady coolness under such adverse criticism will be fondly remembered and hopefully emulated.
Now, onto the crux of this posting:
Whether John is or is NOT a time traveler is moot, based upon my own personal beliefs and experience. Simply put, the most powerful component of ANY interaction or activity involving humans is the human will. Because humans make hundreds or thousands of decisions everyday, most very minor and immediately forgettable, the possibilities of potential outcomes to ANY situation in which one is involved is subject to randomness (chaos?). Our own personal decisions are influenced by a multitude of factors such as mood, health, weather, stress, intelligence, finances, family, interactions with other people, past experience, future expectations, hopes, personal and societal myths…the list could be endless.
And, of course, we are subjected not only to the outcomes of our OWN decisions but also to those of others. For example, one poster noted that a simple and common occurrence with a child potentially helped him avoid a tragedy. If one accepts that my statements are true, then it requires no giant leap of faith to also agree that this randomness prevents anyone from EVER predicting a future event that involves the decisions of humans.
Let us assume for the moment that John is indeed a traveler from 2036 and that all his statements are 100% fact. Within his own timeline, these major occurrences of a civil war and a nuclear holocaust have occurred and, based on a randomness factor of 2.5% one could speculate that the same could occur here. We do, after all, have the SAME people involved. However, 2.5% is a HUGE variable given the already incalculable odds that a small decision by a child, for instance, could change the whole scenario or outcome.
History is rife with stories of decisions that seemed meaningless at the time averting or causing major disasters or occurrences. We even have several words and terms to describe these things: luck, misfortune, angel on my shoulder, God watching over me, wrong place/wrong time, caught a break, etc. In fact, one of our favorite pastimes as humans is “what if”. Given these factors, it is little wonder that John will not give short-term “hard facts”…because he doesn’t really KNOW! And, I speculate he knows he doesn’t know. Just because Duke, for instance, won the NCAA tournament in 2001 in his timeline is no assurance the same will happen here (if they and their opponent score 150 points total in the championship game, nearly 4 points or 2.5% are going SOMEWHERE..add decision making under stress and there is simply no WAY that an outcome could be predicted with certainty).
Regardless, whether OUR future is the future that John “remembers” or not, the randomness of human will and the factors impacting it will insure a different outcome, for better or worse, in this timeline. Different decisions cause different actions which nearly always render different results.
Posted by David R Ferguson on 03-12-2001 02:30 PM
Very good post. I wish you had been able to be here all the time. You have drawn some conclusions that are thought provoking regarding John's or anyone's ability to predict the future.
I, for one, take what many many find to be a simplistic view of time travel theory, and that is that should time travel become available, there is nothing any time traveler can do to change or alter anyone's timeline because it already has happened. I guess I would add that if my theory is true, Javier, then you have nothing in which to worry regarding John or any other Time Traveler.
Just my two cents worth....
Posted by Randy Empey on 03-12-2001 02:46 PM
There is a difference between a John Titor supporter and a person who believes John Titor is a time-traveller.
I support John Titor in his effort to have a discussion in this thread.
I've reserved judgement about his veracity because there is simply no way of knowing, and very little to be gained by guessing, even if I guess right.
Frankly, I don't think it matters whether he is hoaxing us or not.
It is the interaction and exchange that occurs here that matters.
Why is it that the moment I question the nature of reality and ask you to do the same, I become a nazi-lovin' liberal-satanist wannabee in your eyes?
Javier, I am unique, friend. There are only one 'of me out there in this world'. As such, I can't out number you.
People will complain about anything and everything, as you now are proving.
I am not perfect, nor do I pretend to be.
Norms do not exist.
I never voted for Bill Clinton -- your wrong on that one too.
Same sex marriages are just plain sick and wrong, IMO.
I don't see how you can know how I stand on genetic engineering and human cloning when haven't even decided for certain -- you really are amazing.
Next time you chose to share a diatribe with us, please don't engage in character assassination as you do so. It makes it hard to see that much of what you say agrees with the way I see things.
If you really are against John Titor and rational discussion in this thread, calling names is the best way to declare your alignment.
Once again Javier, I must ask you (and I direct this at everybody else too): Why are you so certain that you do have a firm grasp on reality? Are you sure you see and understand all things very clearly? How do you know what you know?
Indeed, do I know what needs to be fixed?
At times I feel I do, and I often act upon my beleifs and impulses in an attempt to 'fix' the world . . . but, at other times, I wonder whether its me or the world that needs fixing . . .
Proving things is impossible in this realm.
But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
It means the reward is in the trying.
The idea is to keep learning (ad infinitum) until you finally do know everthing. And not to stop when convenient and declare that the end has been reached.
Lets talk about the possibilities, since there are no certainties.
Excuse this outburst, it just felt right at the time.
Its not over till the fatlady sings John.
--- Randy E.
Posted by Kevin Spooner on 03-13-2001 04:10 AM
There have been almost 19,000 views of these posts since its inception and that alone gives credit to the number of people who are interested in this topic.
Given the extreme interest (and it is extreme) and the number of people who no doubt repeatedly visit here (as I do) even if not to always post, but to READ... that is incredible.
John has stated he is 'leaving' in about 30 days. Someone else is critical of that. If John said he was going on a two month Time travel excursion for a particular reason, someone else would be critical. If John said he's making some kind of adjustment to his devices, someone would be critical. Hmm.
Given that there is in my view no problem in relating information by John - given the odds that his timeline deviates from ours by around a possible 2.5%, it would seem fair to this threads viewers for John to provide a thorough discourse on what his timeline offers (afterall John, there's no way you can be judged on that given your noted deviance.)
It seems most of us are acting as if its the last goodbyes - but don't forget he gave us 30 days (or given himself the same.) Can we not make use of that (whether he is or is not a TT is irrelevant.)
Perhaps final concrete questions could be answered at this time? We'll see. There's nothing to loose is there?
Posted by John Titor on 03-13-2001 06:32 AM
I’m going to try and get to the remaining questions today. Pamela has been collecting the email and forwarding them to another address. In respect for your privacy, I am not reading them. I am only planning to forward them.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-13-2001 07:28 AM
((It is the interaction and exchange that occurs here that matters. ))
Even if that interaction is generating a group of people following him, praising him, looking up to him as this perfect role-model? It could all just be a front, but they don’t care. They should however be made aware of this. Just look at how those people in “Heaven’s Gate” felt towards their founder? Mighty similar to what is happening here, and it makes me sick to see it.
I am reminded of this quote. I don’t know who said it, just got it out of some book with quotes: “Use your eyes. Sometimes those who offer us eternal salvation surround themselves with dead plants.”
How many people here wish they could go with John in to the future?
How is that any different then those people who wanted to get on the Hale-Bop spaceship to Heaven?
((Why is it that the moment I question the nature of reality and ask you to do the same, I become a nazi-lovin' liberal-satanist wannabee in your eyes?))
Because you and lots of people are 1 sided individuals, who can’t conceive the possibility that I can actually be right about John and Time Travel.
((I am not perfect, nor do I pretend to be. ))
I agree, I’m not either.
((I never voted for Bill Clinton -- your wrong on that one too. ))
I said: “You’re perhaps the majority of people who voted for Bill Clinton the second time around” I didn’t say you did.
((If you really are against John Titor and rational discussion in this thread, calling names is the best way to declare your alignment. ))
Is there something wrong in what I am trying to accomplish here? Am I not trying my hardest too?
I am also reminded of this quote: “Give the world the best you have, and it may never be enough. Give the world the best you’ve got anyway.”
((At times I feel I do, and I often act upon my beleifs and impulses in an attempt to 'fix' the world . . . but, at other times, I wonder whether its me or the world that needs fixing . . . ))
So your uncertain, I’m not. I know what needs to be fixed. I’ve seen it, I still see it. If you only knew…
And for the last time, yes I do have a firm grasp of reality. But if you wish not to accept that answer, because it’s not to your expectation, then I ask you to please stop asking it, for I will not answer it again. Because there will not be a good enough answer for you, no matter what I say.
((Proving things is impossible in this realm.))
I can prove things in this realm. Something’s are harder then others though.
((The idea is to keep learning (ad infinitum) until you finally do know everything. And not to stop when convenient and declare that the end has been reached. ))
The end will come when justice is served. I am merely trying to see that justice gets served in the mean while. Cops do it all the time; do you blame them for doing their job? I see something wrong, I have to help. I can’t let someone down, especially if there is something I can do about it.
((Lets talk about the possibilities, since there are no certainties. ))
Say’s you. But I don’t think I will take your word for it.
Posted by Mel Reckling on 03-13-2001 07:40 AM
I will certainly miss this post when Johns gone . Maybe we can keep it alive until 2036! If you've followed this thread you'll notice I've tried to keep a lighter side to my responses, mostly stupid comments meant to break up the intense scrutiny some people have put John under.
As far as the most verbal of John's critics, Javier Cortez, if I'm not mistaken he has posted his age on the birthday thread as being 21 years old. That could explain a lot. Now age is not that relevant, but maturity rarely comes at that age. He is not a "Time Cop" as he states, rather he probably harbors that fantasy. This is not an attack or threat or anything of the sort. Just a statement of fact.
As far as John goes, it would be great if he is who he said he was. I cannot pass judgement on him. All I can do is thank him for this most interesting thread and wish him "God Speed" and tell him to keep the Chevy out of the ditch.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-13-2001 08:01 AM
The Time Cop statement was hypothetical. And I am very mature for my age, thank you very much.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-13-2001 08:41 AM
I belong in a cave.
Well, not yet. We (what do you mean we, human?) have lived through some difficult times (from the past). But still the fact remains that somehow, humans have gotten through it.
One could say that the probability of having a War increases since we have had nuclear weapons around for a long time. If it comes to pass, then what will you do?
I see no problem with being concerned about the future, maybe it becomes a good thought question.
What can anyone do about it? Meaning that the interaction of humans may have a nullifying effect. Maybe John's purpose is simple, maybe it is complex. Still from leaders in the world, we still have posturing. Here's and example:
General Ivashov: Russia insists on preservation of 1972 ABM Treaty
Russia's position on the 1972 Treaty on the Limitation of Anti-Ballistic Missile Systems is unchanged: it is necessary to preserve the Treaty, strictly observe its standards, and perform all obligations the sides took upon themselves, Colonel General Leonid Ivashov, chief of the Main Directorate of International Military Cooperation at the Defense Ministry of Russia, was reported as making an official statement at a press conference in Moscow March 12.
He also stressed that "Russia regarded and regards NATO's progress east as a threat to its security and the Russian position in this matter has suffered no changes either."
In his opinion, the Russian proposals on the creation of a European non-strategic antimissile defense system, which were handed to NATO Secretary General George Robertson in the course of his February visit to Moscow, "are diametrically opposite to the U.S. intentions of creating a national missile defense system."
The Russian proposals "are not leading to breaches of some obligations or other treaties in this sphere," he explained. The U.S. intentions at the same time are leading to the disruption of the 1972 ABM Treaty, he said.
Russia's proposals are based on the idea of creating "international mobile forces for relocation to directions of missile threat, whereas the U.S.A. intends to cover only its national territory with a protective umbrella," he said.
In this connection, in his view, the Russian proposals, as opposed to the U.S. ones, "will not cause an arms race but rather may reverse it."
Creating an U.S. national missile defense system, on the contrary, "will lead to a competitive process between creators of strategic defense and attack systems," he claimed.
In accordance with his statement, Russia will never agree to having the United States unilaterally disrupt the foundation of international security such as the ABM Treaty is.
Russia's proposals on the creation of a European non-strategic antimissile system are "diametrically opposite" to the U.S. plans to create a national missile defense system, he said.
"Our proposals do not breach any agreements and will not lead to an arms race whereas the U.S. program will assist a competitive process in the area of strategic defense and attack systems," he stressed.
He also mentioned the fact that in the UN Security Council 89 countries spoke against the U.S. national missile defense system and only four in support of it. "The majority of countries are on our side and this frightens the U.S.A.," he concluded.
He also said Russian Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov and U.S. State Secretary Colin Powell would soon discuss the U.S. plans and the Russian proposals in this area.
"For our part, we will try to convince the U.S.A. that the implementation of their plans will have ruinous consequences for the world community," he said.
(It just seems right when a talk show host around where I live still says that Russia still has people that react the old way, (as a Communist) when discussing anything about these treaties.) As of 3/12/01, this article from a Russian newspaper (on-line) is still what they are trying to convince their people of.
Posted by John Titor on 03-13-2001 08:46 AM
((As you know, bodies under acceleration lose their initial constant velocity worldline reference with respect to each other – the Twins Paradox.))
I’m not sure that’s accurate. Twin Paradox time travel only suspends your perspective on a local level as the “world” around you goes on. You do not change worldlines.
((Given that you have a possible 2.5% divergence from your own worldline (5% on a roundtrip?)on a 60-year trip and the micro-singularities (each having their own worldline) are subject to the same divergence, how do you keep them in phase?))
Good thinking but that’s not exactly the way they work and divergence is not cumulative.
((Does the divergence extend into N-dimensions? Is the 2.5% the total error or is each dimension subject to the 2.5% divergence individually?))
Yes, that’s a little closer. You should perhaps change the “N” to and “X” to avoid string theory confusion.
((…but how did you manage to overcome the problem of gathering sufficient power to artificially create a micro-singularity in such a short time (sometime prior to 2036))
The “machine” with the energy to do it will come on-line very soon. The “method” for doing it has already been “mostly” perfected in the Z machine at the National lab in New Mexico.
((I believe that it would theoretically take the total energy output of the Sun since the time of Richard the Lionhearted (about a thousand years) to form one micro-singularity, let along two.))
Not that much.
((I haven't seen an answer to my issue concerning moral turpitude through action or inaction. Did I miss it?))
If I missed something, please repeat it.
((But let me ask you one simple question: instead of sitting at your computer, why not present yourself to George W, proof in hand? THAT would throw quite a monkey wrench into the government's cover-up machine, don't you think?))
Please take a look at the front cover of this month’s Popular Mechanics because it’s a great example of your legacy to 2036 after the war. One side of the cover it describes in great detail how your government is ready spying on you. On the other side (and just as important) it tells you how to install a hot tub.
The reason time travelers do not revel themselves is because your society scares the hell out of us. We do not want to end up in a cement room on a permanent supply of sodium prenatal as men with lab coats poke at our machine with a screwdriver.
((…but would not the vintage computer from 1975 be bigger than the time machine to haul back to the future?))
Not at all. The 5100 series will fit on a tabletop.
((Are people using "reverse speech" in courts, etc. or even recreational?))
Not that I’m aware of.
((…and John's explanation was "gravity sensors". While I'm not aware of anything called a gravity sensor in this day and age, I wouldn't discount such a thing.))
For a second there, I thought 2.5% took a big chunk out of this worldline. I found this site and I’m sure there are others out there.
((Russia, China, N. Korea, Cuba, Iraq, Iran, France - and you can add quite a few others to this list - would just love to see America on her knees and will do whatever it is they can to help us down there. NEVER EVER UNDERESTIMATE enemies - especially FORMER enemies (like Russia).))
Didn’t North Korea just break off some sort of talks with South Korea?
((WACO…with criminal violations of the law either directly or impliedly as is done in this video, simply doesn't accord with the real facts. Actually, there's some evidence now to suggest that not only the FBI, but other federal as well as state and local law enforcement agencies have learned something from the Waco tragedy, and will take great care not to repeat it.))
A large point of contention seems to be the “flashes” of light that appear to be gunfire that were recorded from the aircraft flying over the compound. The FBI has stated that these flashes were sunlight reflections. I find that rather interesting since the camera was not a visible light camera, it was a thermal camera. If the federal forces learned anything from WACO it was to install more reliable suppressors on their automatic weapons and don’t use flash grenades that leave shell casings after the fire.
Sorry for the short answers.
((1. Could you explain your theory about worldlines? Are there
infinite worldlines? Are all worldlines separate or
connected to each other in some way?))
Yes, worldlines are infinite. Yes, they are separate but can be traversed through certain large gravity anomalies.
((2. Where did you attend High school and what year did you
graduate? Was it difficult?))
No, I did not have a “high school” experience.
((3. What college did you attend, what year did you graduate?
Would you estimate that your college life was similar to
ours in our worldline? ))
I was educated at the University of Florida. I entered a military sponsored program in 2029 and graduated between 2033 – 34. No, it was not very similar.
((4. Hypothetically: If you fell in love with someone here
(lets say Pamela) and you took her "back to the future" with you in your timex machine, wouldn't that act upset both of our worldlines especiall if she were pregnant? Or all of the worldlines,assuming time travel is possible? Conversly, If you were gay and you took a gay man back with you, would that disrupt the worldlines less, assuming the both you could not bear offspring. ))
No, it would not disrupt anyone’s worldlines.
((5. Have you had a chance to watch a movie here that you had
already seen in your 2036 wordline? If so, did they have
the same endings?))
Interesting question. If I watch enough of them I should see a difference somewhere but I haven’t seen one yet.
Posted by John Titor on 03-13-2001 08:52 AM
((I’m not sure that’s accurate. Twin Paradox time travel only suspends your perspective on a local level as the “world” around you goes on. You do not change worldlines.))
After reading this, it occured to me that our definition of worldline may not be the same.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-13-2001 09:18 AM
(This may seem like a stupid question, since I am not familiar with any of this in my reality.)
Can world-lines converge closer together every so many years?
(Something like world-lines coming closer together during the time Jesus was on Earth, and now in the future, with the awesome power (nuclear) we have, an ebbing or flowing of the convergence and divergence of world-lines.)
((I must add that if this is true, then morals of all world-lines are tilted towards a certain aspect (good or evil) at these times, (causing the outcome of many, many, many worldlines to be similiar at those times)).
Just a thought.
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-13-2001 12:26 PM
At one time I asked you about the mass of your singularities but didn't receive an answer. From other information gathered here it appears that your machine heats to about 100 degrees (approx. 400 kelvin).
The Hawking Radiation of a singularity with a mass of 3 x 10^20 kg of mass would have a temperature of approx. 400 kelvin.
Hawking radiation in kelvins=(6 x 10^-8/M) where M is Solar masses. The smaller the mass the greater the temperature.
The mass of 3 x 10^20 kg is equilalent to a slice of the Earth 1.2 miles wide at the equator, extending from pole to pole to the depth of the center of the Earth. (The mass of the Earth is 5.98 x 10^24 kg.) Your society isn't involved in space travel (according to earlier posts) so it appears that your singularities are madfe from the Earth itself. Ouch! Your society is killing the world. Eco-terrorists as it were.
Where is the mass coming from?
Posted by John Titor on 03-13-2001 12:43 PM
((Where is the mass coming from?))
E=MCsquared can be solved for mass too.
Posted by John Titor on 03-13-2001 12:49 PM
This appeared to be the same question from the other site so I just copied my old response.
((For instance, he has stated that his society is not involved in space travel. He's also stated that the temperature in and around his device while in use is approximately 100 degrees (approx 375 kelvin). ))
I’m not sure I understand the connection between no space travel and the temperature around the device.
((If the Hawking Radiation of a black hole stated in Kelvins is…))
The singularities are not unstable; therefore, uncontrolled evaporation is not possible. In addition, there is no extemporaneous matter near the singularity that would cause it to give off radiation or heat.
((Or - he's taken a slice of the Earth about 1.2 miles wide at the equator from pole to pole down to the center of the Earth and compressed it into a singularity. And his machine has two of them, GE has a larger unit (C206) and there are multiple machines of each model (C204 & C206). ))
A singularity about the size of an electron would only require the mass of a large mountain. The singularities inside the C204 are much small than that. And no, I didn’t make them.
((If his society doesn't space travel - then they are gobbling up the Earth to make their singularities.))
You know… E = MC squared can be written to solve for mass too.
Posted by Don Berg on 03-13-2001 04:44 PM
John Titor, would you consider having your departure from
this time period be video taped for Art Bell? What would
you expect to be seen during that event from the outside
perspective? I remember that Art wanted to do this when
MadMan Markham was going to attempt time travel, so I
would expect Art would be interested. Please email and fax
Art about this proposal if you accept.
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-13-2001 05:01 PM
He is planning on having someone video tape his departure.
What it will look like:
((Pamela: 1.What exactly would an observer see as they saw you arriving in this
time? and exactly what would they see as you departed? would you just appear
suddenly or slowly? would you look like a heat mirage for awhile? any
light effects? or hazy misty shimmering distortion?
Time travel_0- The observation of time travelers "appearing" suddenly in a world line do not happen very often. There are two cases and two points of view to consider. In the first case, the time machine does not move as it goes from one world line to another and then returns. The people watching on the original world linewould wave good bye and watch as the machine is turned on.
There would be a static discharge and the air would appear to "ripple" as if it were getting denser. Then, it would stop and the machine will have appeared to have gone no where. If the machine doesn't move its position from world line to world line, the observer would not see it disappear at all. In the second case, if the machine is moved, it would disappear from the viewpoint of the observer and return in a different location based on where it was moved and turned on from the destination world line. In that case, the rippling seems to dissolve the machine and it disappears. If that happens while you are watching it leave and you expect it to return, you know it was moved or had a serious malfunction. It is actually quite dangerous to get too close to a distortion unit as it enters or leaves a world line. It vents radiation and has a very strong localized gravity field. Personally, I worry about that a great deal.))
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-13-2001 10:20 PM
You really do not have to answer my questions. I saw the computer on a webpage after I asked that question. I was under the assumption that IBM only had larger computers back then at that time. I do not think any other questions I asked are even that relevant. I was also under the assumption that space travel would come first, now I have my doubts, and as one person put it:
Space is big. I saw some of the other webpages also.
Time is big. I will be thinking about all of this more in the summer, too much to do right now.
Well, certainly I wonder what humans will be doing in the future as to the wisdom that may be needed with certain aspects of technological breakthroughs. I really wonder if humankind has the wisdom in some of these pursuits.
I really wonder.
Here's hoping we did not step on your toes too much.
Posted by Raxamon Bathory on 03-14-2001 02:05 AM
Good evening to all of you, and John. I wont start this off by displaying whether I fully beleive you or not, other than I'd love to beleive you, perhaps even love the fact that I'd love to beleive you, but not whether I concretely do, or not.
I am not very good grammatically, or even at organizing my thoughts in a cohesive list of things, so please bear with me as I struggle to manipulate an unweildly and cumbersome form of communication to the best of my ability. First and formost I am inquisitive about religious beleif systems you seem to make many references to a obviously Male Dominated religious system, perhaps even the religion I loathe so much, known as Christianity. Being that you claim to be from 2036, you must forgive my arrogance but I will assume for you to be a representative of people in that time, and that worldline. Am I, a faithfull Witchcraft Practicing Neopagan to beleive that Christianity is still the dominant form of religion in whats left of a post-catacalysmic United States? And that mankind is still aspiring towards a rather unbalanced religion, responsible for alot of the sorrow, misery, toture, death, and narrow mindedness of this worldlines past, and in some ways present, and none actively seek reunification with the old ways, seeking to come closer to the bosom of earth based religion? Or is it that Neopaganism is such a minority in your time and worldline that you have yet to mention it in any form? I am sorry to sound rather bitter, but with regards to most of christianity and its followers, all I have seen and experienced is narrow mindedness, hatred, and malevolent intent towards anything remotely different from themselves (Holy War is a good example, Salem Witch trials is another, and down here in the deep south you can find it anywhere simply by walking into a southern baptist church on sunday wearing a pentagram and wearing black). If neopaganism is not a viable and accepted religion or tolerated much amongst the christian counterparts in your communities, I should think I know where I'll be aiming my guns when, and if such a war arrives. It is my deep seated beleif that if all religions dont wake up and unify and realize all religious (and spiritual) beleif leads to the same sources, there may well be uprisings from pagans (I should think after so many centuries of hatred we're quite fed up by now, and its showing in the Black Metal musical underground movement occuring presently in Norway, and some of europe in which angry fans are quite litterally burning centruies old catholic churches to the ground sometimes with followers inside).
I wont leave anything aside in saying I'm a Gen X individual, only difference instead of not caring, I'm angry, Not only am I angry, I'm rather overjoyed to hear the possibility of Mutually Assured Destruction for all mankind, because for the most part, most people dont deserve the life given to them, I'll be cheering from the sidelines when the bombs start dropping, waiting for an opportunity for an anarchistic environment wherein I could easily inact revenge upon Governmental officials, and Religious Zealots with deadly force.
However, the image you produce of mankind drawing inward upon itself, and becoming....more wholeistic in a sense, caring more about the community as a whole, and the wellbeing of the mass body, than the greed of the self I must admit is a heartening one, perhaps a step towards spiritual enlightenment, for all parties, in wich Christian, Pagans, Muslims, Buddhists and the like can all sit down and break bread with each other and be as brothers. If such is the case I would indeed think, even through the hardships, I'd be more than willing to live through that. Furthermore the possibility for daily bloodshed from water raiders and the like would thrill me, a more earth based, rather than economy, or rather Capitalistic based life would seem more than an enjoyable experience.
Personally many seem to think of the fact of millions of dying as a bad thing, I dont. I think getting rid of the mass populace would be a wonderfull thing, and rest assured if it happens, I'll be doing my part to weed out the morons that slipped through the cracks of devastation with the point of a gun, of that you have my oath.
At any rate, I have a favor to ask of you, if you dont mind. You stated earlier, you would post this information up on the net in your worldline when you arrived back at your destination (or rather as close as you can get to your original worldline). I have two children who I should hope will be smart enough to live through the devastation (perhaps though it would however be a kinder gesture that they did not however, considering possibility of nuclear winter, fallout, mutatuion, cancer, morons freely toting guns etc). Please do me a favor and look up if you can Celeste Electra Watson, and Damon Caine Watson, and tell them their father loves them deeply, and wishes them the best in all that they acheive, and that I wish the light grace and love of the Lord and Lady to shine upon them always and in all that they do. I have no message for myself, as in truth its not me, and even if it was, I should be 57 by this time, and possibly A. Dead or B. a doddering old fool. And also how would the other me with a different timeline know to even look myself up. which means only that the message would never get to me. Which is why I ask you the favor of directly looking up my children if they still live and telling them such.
On another note, out of curiosity, say one turned on a tesla coil nearby the machine you use to travel, emitting the emp dreaded by anything with transistors, and then attempted to utilize the time machine? is it sheilded against the effects of EMP or would you then be sitting, staring at a now useless peice of machinery stuck in a time period you were unfamiliar with? Furthermore, also electromagneticism I should think would be slightly different from our time to yours, considering massive worldwide global thermonuclear war would destroy most power grids *snicker* in your time period, do other electromagnetic feilds such as those produced from surrounding powerlines, and such in any way hamper the proper utilization of the machine? or make it more difficult to take accurate "snapshots" so that you remain "stuck to the world" ?
Also on a further note...considering you'll never actually get back to your own worldline, why go back? I dunno bout you, but I'd say FuX0R that, and not care anymore and slide further and further back in time (or forward) as far as I possibly could, expecting cumulative divergance from my point of origin, seeking out and exploring the many possibilities of the multiverse. I should think a world where hitler won would be on the side of the amount of divergance I'm talking about, or a World Where the Egyptian Empire was never beaten by the persians and Alexander the Great, thusly resulting in a superpower of the same might of Rome by the time of cleopatra's reign (or lack of reign, lol we are talking massive divergance here are we not?) and why settle for the efforts of petty human civilization? go back, keep going back, Millions of years, grab up specimens of the triassic era, then have fun hopping back into the future with your specimens then gleefully set loose say, hell a pack of raptors onto the populace of newyork? then laugh as you warp off to another point in time, in another world, where any possibility could be reality. (only thing I'd be really worried about is hopping into a world where the russians did not back down from the cuban missile crisis, under the Kennedy administration). After all who is gonna stop you? the multiverse is now your playground, and who cares about your time period and their problems, as you said others would step through from other worldlines to take your place in your concurrent worldline, perhaps one of them will decide to go back with the machine so they get what they want, and you get a free ride on one of the greatest adventures I could imagine.
I dunno, but thats what I'd do, I mean you just took a mission where in essence quite simply there is NO return, so why give a flip about the issues of humans, your now above all that with the multiverse being your playground.
Anyways thats just a few ideas and questions and whatnot I figured I'd toss your way. Sounds like fun were it real, and if it isn't **** man write a book. I'd pay just to read it LOL
Posted by John Titor on 03-14-2001 08:12 AM
Departure Video for Art Bell
((John Titor, would you consider having your departure from
this time period be video taped for Art Bell? What would
you expect to be seen during that event from the outside
perspective? I remember that Art wanted to do this when
MadMan Markham was going to attempt time travel, so I
would expect Art would be interested. Please email and fax
Art about this proposal if you accept. ))
Earlier in the thread I had said I would be willing to videotape my departure and Pamela copied a much earlier post describing it. There are a few technical and logistical problems but I do plan to have it done. (i.e. the videotape recording has static and interference if it’s too close to the unit.) At this point, the videotape would be for pure entertainment value. It won’t prove one way or another if I’m a time traveler but I feel you deserve just a tad of bread and circuses.
When I approached my grandfather in 1975 it took me quite a while to convince him I was who I said I was. He said something I’ve never forgotten and I’ve heard some of you allude to it also. After looking at the unit he turned to me and said, “Either you’ve escaped from an insane asylum or you’re a time traveler. As the weeks went on, it occurred to me that both were just as threatening and dangerous to him and I’m not sure he ever decided which one was worse.
Based on my own experiences on the web and a few comments some of you have made, I suspect Art is growing weary of people claiming to be time travelers for the same reason. As we have discussed, there is really no way to prove it and I would imagine Art is tired of putting himself at risk by entertaining the idea. He does have a responsibility to his listeners and I respect that. I suppose it goes back to the old question you’ve all asked yourselves. What is proof of time travel?
Posted by Joe Section on 03-14-2001 08:59 AM
I am confused by one of your actions. Why is it NOT ok to give us information about our near future in detail, but it IS ok to take back detailed emails and totally modify that time line?
I would like to know the next AOL on this time line, not another
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-14-2001 09:23 AM
Well what a way to play the crowd John. But what are you truly trying to say?
Often times you have hidden meanings in your statements. And I know that this time is no acceptation. Why are you now emphasizing trying to say something about proving to us if you are real or not?
As a way out perhaps?
That video of your departure, are you afraid that it will be proven fraudulent?
And you just want to spare people the disappointment?
Well if my guesses are correct, I think we found something we agree on. We both wouldn’t like to see people suckered into believing you as a fraud.
Posted by John Titor on 03-14-2001 10:09 AM
((Why is it NOT ok to give us information about our near future in detail, but it IS ok to take back detailed emails and totally modify that time line?))
I'm not saying anything in your messages. You are. Are you suggesting I edit your emails? Are you unable to weigh the consequences of your opportunity and I am now responsible for what you might say to yourself? Now that you have the chance to put your own morals to the test do you feel you're incapable of living up to your own standards?
Is it wrong to say one thing and not something else? If you feel you should tell yourself to buy a certain stock than I suppose you are willing to take the risk that "your" advice doesn't prove wrong in the next few days.
What ever I might do, I would consider the fact that someday you will have to address this question again as an entire society.
J.C. Why would I offer to make the video if I thought it would "expose" me? If it makes you feel better, I doubt it will change your mind anyway but it will give you something to talk about when I'm gone. I think that's the greatest gift I could give you.
Posted by Joe Section on 03-14-2001 10:48 AM
It is not against my morals to give myself a financial edge with some information from the future, but it does seem to be against your morals as you won't give any of us a stock tip or any specific information from the future.
Why would you allow all kinds of information to make it's way back in time, yet give no information on this time line? The exchage of information would not be possible without your help.
I am sure if you asked the future me, he would give permission to give the current me some useful information
>>I'm not saying anything in your messages. You are. Are you suggesting I edit your emails? Are you unable to weigh the consequences of your opportunity and I am now responsible for what you might say to yourself? Now that you have the chance to put your own morals to the test do you feel you're incapable of living up to your own standards?<<
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-14-2001 10:57 AM
Greatest gift for me? How do you know what the greatest gift for me is? I'd take it you didn't mean just me when you said that.
Posted by David R Ferguson on 03-14-2001 10:57 AM
I am not going to be sending an e-mail to myself in 1998 because I am sticking to my belief that since I did not receive an e-mail from myself in 1998, then it never happened.
I would, however, like to receive an e-mail message from myself in the future. I would now how I would be able to prove to myself that it was legit.
Have fun, all, and I look forward to seeing your departure, John.
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-14-2001 11:19 AM
I know that you don't understand...which is sad. Its the Hawking Radiation that you can't overcome. This radiation is seperate from any other radiation given off by extemporaneous matter falling into the singularity. It is part of the description of a singularity per se absent any other matter. A singularity emits Hawking Radiation.
A simple "E=Mc^2" isn't the answer here. You have to form the singularity for your machine to work and that takes mass - real, not virtual mass. You have to get the mass for the singularity from somewhere and if you can't or don't travel in space (to grab the mass from somewhere other than Earth) then you have to be gobbling up the planet itself.
The truly faulty part of your description of your device involves the Hawking Radiation. You can't overcome it and you can't ignore it. Its not the size of the singularity that matters - its solely the mass involved that determines the temperature of the radiation.
400 kelvin or 100 degrees C emitted as Hawking Radiation from the singularity requires a mass of 3 * 10^20 kg. Lert's assume that the mass of the singularity is "about the mass of a large mountain". Let's say that the mass of the singularity is 1/1,000,000th (5.98*10^18 kg)the mass of the Earth. The Hawking Radiation temperature around your singularity will be approximately 20,000 degrees kelvin. The surface temperature of the sun is about 5,600 degrees kelvin. That's a sunburn that you won't forget for a while.
So, the reparte has been fun. But your device, as described, simply won't work.
Its too bad that this has occurred. People want to believe in the future and future technology but get confused by bad science. As I've said before, it doesn't particularly bother me that you don't really have a time machine. Its fun to " jus' 'spose" it was true. The problem comes when people really are convinced that its true based on bad science. In any case, there's plenty of evidence available for people to check on their own so they can make informed decisions and learn what the true state of the science is. Where we are in physics today is truly exciting without making it up.
20,000 degrees...ouch, ouch, ouch!
Posted by David R Ferguson on 03-14-2001 11:20 AM
John, I just want to clarify my last post: I am not looking forward to your leaving in the sense that I want you to go, I meant it that I am looking forward to seeing your departure from an observational perspective. This has been an enjoyable, educational, and thought-provoking thread.[Edited by David R Ferguson on 03-14-2001 at 11:41 AM]
Posted by John Titor on 03-14-2001 11:55 AM
((I know that you don't understand...which is sad.))
Perhaps you are just having a hard time making yourself clear? I will admit you are a little out of my ballpark but I do understand what you are referring to.
((It’s the Hawking Radiation that you can't overcome. This radiation is separate from any other radiation given off by extemporaneous matter falling into the singularity. It is part of the description of a singularity per se absent any other matter. A singularity emits Hawking Radiation.))
Yes, that is true. If you firmly believe that Hawking radiation cannot be controlled or goes on even without the presence of virtual particles forever until the singularity explodes than you are correct.
((A simple "E=Mc^2" isn't the answer here.))
You asked where the mass comes from. I simply pointed out that mass and energy are interchangeable in the same equation. One of my Stanford pals tells me there is a running gag about the chances a VW Beetle spontaneously appearing inside the accelerator. It could only come from the transfer of energy to mass.
((You have to form the singularity for your machine to work and that takes mass - real, not virtual mass.))
That is incorrect.
((The truly faulty part of your description of your device involves the Hawking Radiation. You can't overcome it and you can't ignore it. Its not the size of the singularity that matters - its solely the mass involved that determines the temperature of the radiation.))
You seem to be quite upset and I understand your argument. I do however think it is important to gather the facts and probabilities before expelling emotional energy on them. Please keep in mind that I have not shared all the technical details of the machine with you. So an easy out would be for me to just make something up.
However, and as I’m sure you are aware, Stephen Hawking admits that his own equations support the “possibility” that microsingularities may not totally disappear as they evaporate in a sea of virtual particles and in fact may leave behind a very stable naked singularity. I’m sure you can look that up. I suppose the difficult part is believing that we’ve taken advantage of it, not that it’s impossible.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-14-2001 11:58 AM
Back to my reality.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-14-2001 12:47 PM
Inherently, freedom from responsibility, is not evidenced in this Universe, this is why humans are so small.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-14-2001 01:32 PM
Darby, I simply do not have time to get into details right now - but, if you take some time to do some internet searches you will find that not only is is POSSIBLE to create a microsingularity, it is possibly to do so NOW with a linear accellerator. In fact, there was an article recently (about 5-6 months ago I think, which is why I can't remember the exact source right now) that stated there is a distinct probability of it happening.
I THINK if you do a search on the discovery channel, or discovery magazine, you should find this information yourself.
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-14-2001 08:49 PM
speaking of time, i am on page 18 and have spent hours contemplating, reading, going to links etc. Facinating stuff. Great Discussion.
I do have a question or two, and please forgive me if they were addressed and I have not reached them yet.
In the years leading to the civil war in the US and ww3, when searches are being conducted in homes, what is being searched for specifically? I can assume weapons, but that seems too simple.
Also, John, can you elaborate on recognizing who the enemy will be domestically? You had stated sometime back in the thread that it would be those who had the most to lose..(paraphrasing) I may be taking this out of context, but maybe not.
I am on the fence post, but intrigued by this topic. I cannot obviously say you are a TT, but that is not the issue for me. I need no proof. At the least, this discussion has been a laymans guide to understanding Time Travel theory. At most, you are "visiting". Either way, Thanks
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-15-2001 11:41 AM
Who's going to remember this thread in the future?
Have you made a poster about something like "I am from 2036" to jog your memory?
If these events come to pass, have you made plans about what you will do?
No need to answer me, but in a couple of years, no one may remember this thread, due to life events of the yous or you.
I find the events mentioned as incredible, I also find that most people could look forward and describe certain events that might take place in the future. These possibilities have always been with us.
I, myself, and I have a lot of meetings with myself, self, and I am having another meeting with myself, dictate that the 50 me-s that are all having meetings with myself may get confused from time to time. This leaves 50 or more me-s in every worldline with more me-s showing up possibly all the time.
With all of you doing all the same, then these parallel worlds are all busy with all the you-s and me-s.
We all only take up one space on the gameboard still in the world.
Further thoughts on all of these meetings may be forthcoming, soon I hope.
In the near future, I know what I have to do, due to obligations of all the me-s that had meetings with all the other me-s, I guess.
Well, that leaves all of the me-s tied up at the moment.
Anyone else feel this way?
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-15-2001 11:48 AM
If it seems that I may be howling at the Moon, Ah~~~~~~Ow, would you might think of it as a form of March Madness?
Afterall, all of the me-s holding all of these me-s meetings may have nothing to do, if not howling at the Moon, leaving the other me-s to say, what a pity, that some of the me-s are howling at the Moon. I also have to assume that all of the other world-lines are having quite a time also with this.
I can not decide when I had the time to do all of this, though.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-15-2001 12:03 PM
Also, one could write a paper describing this action as a Class, perhaps even putting it in a computer, with a programming language to describe this Class. Making a Object of the Class and referencing it, would instansiate this Class. This would give the computer a Busy Class Object that describes the methods, events, and properties of the Busy Class Act.
I must be a Busy Class Object Act.
Is this part of the Future events?
Fitting at this time, I must include a Prayer:
Now, I lay me down to sleep. I pray the Lord my soul to keep.
And if I should die, before I wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-15-2001 12:15 PM
I leave to go into the Future, moment by moment, step, by step.
What awaits me there?
There was another forum where a topic was created. Oxuma, a Brailizan, came up with this: (Give credit where credit is due).
What has someone said to you that was stupid at some time in your life?
Some of the replies given back by people who responded could be made into a sort of conversation that would go like this:
Space is big.
The idea is good, but the forum is not.
There's grass on the lawn.
Is that all there is to talk about?
The seashore is where the sea and the shore meet.
If I taught you everything I know, you still would not know anything.
Can someone go out and get me a monkey sandwich?
The winner was given some sort of symbolic prize: The Golden Grass Award.
And the winner, was: There's grass on the lawn.
I leave you to your thoughts.
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-15-2001 01:17 PM
Honestly, I’m not upset about any of this…and the only emotion involved for me is joy. This is fun! It really is. And the energy expelled (other than the Hawking Radiation <poke> is intellectual. Back to the didactic…
I realize that you haven’t given “all of the technical details” of the device. If it (the device) exists, the details aren’t yours to give in any case. The details of the device, as intellectual property, belongs to GE and its shareholders (of which I am one). The details that you have posted publicly may actually be in violation of copyright and patent law relative to the rights of GE in 2001. Did the Board of Directors of today’s GE authorize you to publicly post their technical drawings? (Did GE in 2036 for that matter give similar authorization?) The reason that I ask this question is that we don’t know that GE isn’t, in fact, working on this device as we speak. The technical drawing that you have posted, if it reflects a reality, has some implications that you may not have taken into consideration. You see a time machine. I see a very powerful weapons system – an x-ray emitter with directional control. It’s there in the drawing.
X-rays will be emitted if matter is pumped into the device (which you say isn’t happening) and the engineers are concerned about where to vent the x-rays – a mismatch. The drawing indicates in Detail #5 “X-Ray Venting Zone”. It details x-rays being focused and vented directionally. It has applications as a weapons system and today’s DOD & GE would not want any details of the system publicized.
Posted by John Titor on 03-15-2001 02:11 PM
I too enjoy these conversations.
((I realize that you haven’t given “all of the technical details” of the device.))
Actually, I’m hoping the cut-a-way drawing from the manual will be available to you very soon.
((If it (the device) exists, the details aren’t yours to give in any case.))
…smiling… So let me get this straight, John please prove you’re a time traveler but don’t show us any copyrighted material?
((The details that you have posted publicly may actually be in violation of copyright and patent law relative to the rights of GE in 2001.))
No, I am not breaking any of “my” laws but I suppose that’s something else you and your worldline will have to deal with when time travel comes.
((The reason that I ask this question is that we don’t know that GE isn’t, in fact, working on this device as we speak.))
They might be now.
((You see a time machine. I see a very powerful weapons system – an x-ray emitter with directional control. It’s there in the drawing.))
Yes I suppose that is one thing you could do with it. I could also cut my hand off with a power saw or heat up a crowd of people with a microwave. However, I believe Teller already came up with an X-ray laser that destroys itself after going off.
((X-rays will be emitted if matter is pumped into the device (which you say isn’t happening) and the engineers are concerned about where to vent the x-rays – a mismatch.))
Actually, I thought we were focusing on the degree of radiation and temperature. I don’t believe I ever said it didn’t give off radiation. Yes, the device does give off x-rays.
((The drawing indicates in Detail #5 “X-Ray Venting Zone”. It details x-rays being focused and vented directionally. It has applications as a weapons system and today’s DOD & GE would not want any details of the system publicized.))
As you said, it’s interesting that I see a time machine and you see a weapon. Maybe it’s a sign of the “times”. However, it is a good point. If the Chinese or Russians thought you had one of these what do you think they would do?
Again, maybe you should ask yourself if you’re sure you want me to prove I’m a time traveler. Maybe that’s what makes a time traveler “evil” in that he would be willing to share everything with you. If that were true, does J.C. have a good point after all?
Posted by Craig Cuthbert on 03-15-2001 02:30 PM
John - This has been fascinating.
John - IF you (or other TTs), were to lose - a way to get back - would there be a rescue team? Your story would not go over really well here in 2000, if you were in need of assistance - probably lock you up with the other time travelers. No, I'm sure of it. Though I understand you have family. Are there interesting stories of TTs who have had to wing it through tough missions? What would you do. Get a job? Freelance engineering?
Another thing, if you were to take back a carload of shopping items, would they make it?
Sounds like your heading back soon. Did I hear that correct?
Does the "you" in the other time line, have to "absorb" you back? How do you keep from having two "yous", back home?
Can you e-mail us from the future and tell us how we're doing there? No, guess not.[Edited by Craig Cuthbert on 03-15-2001 at 02:51 PM]
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-15-2001 04:24 PM
you are so funny.
"The details of the device, as intellectual property, belongs to GE and its shareholders (of which I am one). The details that you have posted publicly may actually be in violation of copyright and patent law relative to the rights of GE in 2001. Did the Board of Directors of today’s GE authorize you to publicly post their technical drawings? (Did GE in 2036 for that matter give similar authorization?) The reason that I ask this question is that we don’t know that GE isn’t, in fact, working on this device as we speak. The technical drawing that you have .."
If John's device is real .it belongs to another world altogether. another GE, therefore it would violate no known copy right laws here.or patent laws here. infact with a 2.5 divergence how do you know the patent numbers or the device would be the same? besides as of now the patent doesnt even exist here. technically it would not be THIS GE's pictures. It would not be THIS GE's device. it belongs to another world line. since it hasnt been invented yet how would you say he got the pictures?? Now THAT would be an interesting case indeed. would they have to prove him to be a time traveler? Is there known laws at this time that states this as a criminal offense to share technology from other world lines? what if it is NOT an offense in John's world?
The Burden of proof would fall on YOU, not on John.
.....Wouldnt want THAT case! Would any lawyer actually TAKE that case??? heheh
hmmm...noticed Doc's board is down again...
Posted by Lola Montez on 03-15-2001 08:47 PM
Just to change the subject for a minute; doesn't it seem strange that this board has been hit so much? I checked and most don't get over 500 or so. (this one over 19,000!!!)This has had more than any other. The only other ones that come close are two discussions about c2c guests. What do you think of that, if anything?
Posted by John Titor on 03-15-2001 09:33 PM
((If John's device is real .it belongs to another world altogether. another GE, therefore it would violate no known copy right laws here.or patent laws here.))
Any government document can not be copyrighted. I could also argue that the manual "could" be from a future where it has become public domain but then again, it would mean proving I am a time traveler.
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-15-2001 09:41 PM
LOLA: Hi, I agree that it is amazing how many views have been done on this discussion. Well, maybe not. It is a topic that does not itself generate tons of controversy it seems, but as evidenced by the many exchanges, it can get heated. I wish I had been here for the whole discussion instead of reading up.
No matter if John is a real TT or not. He started and kept up with a wonderful and informative discussion. In a way I will be a little sad when this thread stops altogether. It was truly the best thread I have read in a long *time*. I am not a PhD, but I did get a good laymans view on the theories surrounding Time Travel. It has been an interest for as long as I remember.
Question: Anyone else acutely conscious of the word *time* in daily speech? I am now. Just my focus I guess.
To All who Participated:
Thanks for the great read! Everyone. There are many well thought out parties on this sys.
Rick: You really DoD Intel?
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-15-2001 10:31 PM
So what do you have to say about what you started here? Have you no idea that some of these people are following you like the Pie Pipper?
I don't know about you, but I call that taking advantage of buying into people's fascination with Time Travel, using that as leverage for perhaps your "Secret Agenda."
Wherever you go in 3 weeks John, you'll find someone with enough guts to stand up to people like you, and oppose your exploitation. Remember ME!
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-15-2001 10:57 PM
I still do not see how anyone can be from a future when that has not happened as far as I am concerned yet.
No doubt the answer is here in this thread.
I will have to go over it again.
For a moment, I was thinking that a microsinglularity might just eat energy, and mass just gets in the way, (it's not needed), making a microsinglularity a kind of energy generator that can move mass with its energy field, (skirting around its edge horizon event).
I have to look that up, again.
If so, then building this thing may not be all that difficult, except for a few engineering problems.
Should of listened to the Prof in Thermodynamics, afterall he wrote the answers for the test on the blackboard.
At the time, I guess I was interested in something else, I could tell you what, but I'll keep it to myself for now.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-15-2001 11:14 PM
Oh, I see you invented a new machine here. What do you call this thing?
I call it a 'Time Travel' machine.
Well, what do you hope it does when you turn it on?
I hope it doesn't blow up the entire Solar System.
Well , I think it be more interesting if humans waited until we can take the whole entire Universe along.
Well, what do you mean?
Well, if we had antimatter, and could blow up the whole entire Universe, we could call it, "The Big Bang".
Posted by Al Ryder on 03-15-2001 11:17 PM
Do you have a Timex Sinclair in your collection ??
Posted by Jim Houlahan on 03-16-2001 12:22 AM
You've mentioned (and it makes sense that) computers get much better by your time. Considering the vast difference between that 1975-vintage IBM 5100 you've picked up and the computer I have sitting on my desk, I can't imagine what computers will be like in 2036. Are they even still called "computers"? Are you carrying a computing device from your time? Have you had to use our ancient technology for all this posting? I think I'd like to use my 1978 TRS-80 Model 1 again for nostalgia's sake, but 10 minutes of that and I'd have to stop from frustration. How are you coping with our "stone-knives and bear-skins" technology? That's a Star Trek reference. Have you watched Star Trek?
What can you tell us about future computing technology without conflicting with your "temporal prime directive"? We could guess some things based on Moore's Law concerning storage, speed, etc. It would be nice for computer-geeks like me to hear some specifics though - especially about form, function and interface.
Thanks for spending time giving us all great stuff to think about!
Posted by Jay Richards on 03-16-2001 12:36 AM
John, you never addressed my question posted several days ago. Would you address it?
Also, I noticed a post from you on a different thread where you said something to the effect that everything that can or could have ever happened has happened, and thus there's an infinite number of realities.
If there were an infinite number of realities, then there would necessarily arise a reality that somehow causes there to be no other realities. In fact, an infinite number of such realities would have to arise that cause there to be no other realities.
It'd also necessarily give rise to a reality that somehow causes there to be only one single reality. In fact, it would necessarily give rise to an infinite number of such realities that somehow cause there to be only one reality.
It'd also necessarily give rise to a reality that somehow causes there to no realities at all. In fact, it would necessarily give rise to an infinite number of such realities that somehow cause there to be no realities at all.
One might desire to argue that such realities could arise in the future, from our perspective, and we simply haven't encountered the effects of that yet but we might in our future. But if that where the case, then there would necessarily arise an infinite number of realities that somehow causes there to have never been any other reality from any perspective.
There seems to be a bit of a problem with any sort of "infinite reality" concept (or infinite Universes, for that matter), doesn't there?
So furthermore, if there's a limit to the quantity of realities (or Universes, for that matter), which logic clearly dictates that there must be, what is the limiting factor?
Is it the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin? I don't think so. There can be only one.
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-16-2001 06:31 AM
AL: The Timex Sinclair...I had one. I was 10 and it was incredible! At that time I remember getting the expansion pack for the RAM, it came stock with 2k i think. All Basic code on hot keys. Thanks, never thought anyone else used one. Seems to me the Sinclair was as useless as the Altair though. (that was b4 my start in comps.)
JOHN: I agree with Jim. I to am interested in your thoughts on the future of computers and their interface etc. Any new types of periferal devices?
Also,if the WTO protesters in Seattle had been at the time of the future civil war, would they be at all similar to the victors of the war?
And 1 more thing, I know you have commented about your puzzlement at questions regarding Bill Gates. Well, Bill Gates has an interesting story in how he became the wealthiest man (monetarily) on earth. Obvious, however if what you suggest of the future is true, I see Mr. Gates as a becoming a pinata for the amusement of those opposed to his iconical representation of wealth. Hmmm. Being that his company has been (arguably unfairly) chased by anti-trust issues..does he become a financial force behind the Constitutional defenders?
Posted by Mel Reckling on 03-16-2001 07:04 AM
Sounds like the computers of the future will be much like the kind found in the Monty Python movie" Brazil" with their ancient typewriter keyboards and those hilarious screen magnifiers. Can anyone tell me what a "Pie Pipper" is?
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-16-2001 07:09 AM
Phil: "Rick: You really DoD Intel? "
My background is in intel. Communications, electronics, intelligence. Currently I work in the computer security field. I work in a national reserch facility. I keep my hands in intelligence - though no longer professionally. Once you're a part of that, you never really leave it.
I am a very patriotic person. I joined the military when I was younger because of patriotism, not for college, not for the fun of it, and certainly not because I HAD to do it. I did it because I believe in the Constitution of the United States.
At the same time - I believe, apparently like John, that our society, and indeed our government, has taken a turn for the worst. See... we the people, ARE the government. When a society's morals break down, the government isn't far behind. We've got this "entity" called "government" now, that has grown massively in power, while losing all common sense. The truth is a non-existent entity can't HAVE common sense. It can only have bureacratic 'thoughts' - the collective thoughts, and actions of a group of people controllig the purse strings, controlling everything, even down the people of the country.
The problem with this is - people like me still exist and probably always will. We sit within a system that we view as corrupt, and believe we can change it within the system itself. We try, hitting brick wall after brick wall.
I still believe that our greatest acheivements are yet to come - and yet, a nawing feeling in the pit of my stomach has been telling me that something is going to happen, and soon. I've felt this for about 5-6 years now. I can not put my finger on it, but, it all comes back to your question... Intelligence.
We watch foreign governments and wonder what they will do next, even predict what they will do next. We see things like Mad Cow disease - and more recently a suddenl virile outbreak of hoof and mouth disease. It didn't hit just one farm, it hit most of England at the same time. I believe - along with others, that this was a biological attack (what better way to get away with murdering millions of people without getting caught? You reduce their food supplies, and they die slowly. You're never caught because no one knows where you released the disease).
Sitting here, reading this forum - and seeing what someone else saw - that there were 19K hits or more makes me wonder about the future. John may or may not be "for real" - but I will reserve my final judgement for the upcoming video - even so, he has sparked an intelligence, well thoughtout discussion on the part of each and everyone writing here. We all are going to come away with a heightened sense of our own reality, mortality and perhaps even our own future.
If John has been accurate on even a small portion of his future predictions (which by the way, he has made several, you simply have to carefully read the notes here) then my own thoughts follow along on the civil war, and even nuclear war. MY family will have a fallout shelter within a few months.
I already am a 'survivalist'. My web site has been online for years and contains a lot of information about nuclear war, disasters, storms, earth changes... you name it, it's there. If anyone wants the URL, write me privately (Not sure if I can post it here). In the mean time - I personally will be keeping my eyes on the intel side of things. Many others will be too.
Posted by John Titor on 03-16-2001 07:55 AM
To my knowledge, there are no other sites where these pictures can be seen and is stable. A few of them have not been posted before. I suspect they will generate more questions which I will try to address.
Posted by David R Ferguson on 03-16-2001 08:28 AM
I believe you are referencing a comment made by Javier a few posts earlier, and I believe "Pie Pipper" was just misspelled...I believe he meant "The Pied Piper," the legendary character and exterminator from the German fairy tale of the same name who first led rats out of a village by playing his magic pipe. Later he led all the children of the village away when the town folk refused to pay him for ridding their village of the rat infestation.
Posted by Bob Marz on 03-16-2001 09:10 AM
No No No. The Pied Piper was a mere facsimile of our future Lord, the Pie Pipper. A poseur. An interloper. All hail and bow to the Lord of the Future! The Pie Pipper. Mothers shalt bake the pies, even shalt they include the apple, the strawberry-rhubarb and the chocolate silk. Baker's Square shalt become places of worship. And the pies shall be the symbol we shalt follow. Heretics and infidels who shalt mock and ridicule the Pie Pipper shall be cast into a cherry pit.
I (vaguely) remember a book by Joe Haldeman where one of the characters says, "With all these infinite moments, the future must get pretty crowded, eh?"
That time traveller answered, "You can't crowd infinity!"
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-16-2001 09:34 AM
We're going to die.
At least while you are here, John, have you visited some of the people's leader, at Disneyland, "Mickey Mouse"?
Who's the leader of the land, whos made for you and me?
Mickey Mouse, Mickey Mouse
Forever will he lead us to the end.
Who's the leader of the land, whos made for you and me?
M--i--c--, k--e--y, M-o-u-s-e.
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-16-2001 09:37 AM
MEL: I think what John actually said was that typewriters are in use in the future because it requires no electricity. Makes sense to me. Consider what a waste it is to use a computer (electric) to type a single note that will be simply thrown away after it is read....hmmm
As for the "Pie Pipper", I am not sure what is meant except perhaps it is really the Pied Piper, a fictional character that led rats out of a european town by use of a flute?
RICK: I identify closely with all you stated above.
"I keep my hands in intelligence - though no longer professionally. Once you're a part of that, you never really leave it."
I believe that. I have done skip tracing for an attorney and am glad I developed those skills. Helps me now in searching for truth and reality. I knew a fella who claimed to be retired CIA. One night we had a couple drinks..well I did, he had more than a few. Anyway, he proceded to tell me a lot of really intense stuff and some less intense but still interesting as far as discussion. About a year later some things he talked about were coming to light in media and the net....he had been retired for several years. What was really sad in his case was that he was obviously an intelligent man, but he was so burnt out mentally and physically, and very aggressive.
"At the same time - I believe, apparently like John, that our society, and indeed our government, has taken a turn for the worst. See... we the people, ARE the government. When a society's morals break down, the government isn't far behind. We've got this "entity" called "government" now, that has grown massively in power, while losing all common sense. The truth is a non-existent entity can't HAVE common sense. It can only have bureacratic 'thoughts'"
I agree with that statement as well, but I see a further influence in this. Media attempts to entertain instead of inform and so skews the focus of life in our country. Seems to me that a properly managed info show is entertaining. Hmmm, Art may have some far out people on sometimes, but he does inform > entertain.
"a nawing feeling in the pit of my stomach has been telling me that something is going to happen, and soon. I've felt this for about 5-6 years now. I can not put my finger on it,"
For a long time I have interpreted a feeling that I am supposed to DO something (maybe better prepare for eventualities), but as of yet do not know what for sure. I too sense a shift somehow and there is at times a feeling of massive change on the horizon. I have learned to embrace change as good though. I have stagnated in my personal life before and even the downside to change can be welcome for everything seems to balance in the end result.
"We see things like Mad Cow disease"
Me too. I posted an opinion here on the bbs at Predictions>Terrorist Attack in US. I would like you opinion on this over there if you could be so kind.
"John may or may not be "for real"... he has sparked an intelligence, well thoughtout discussion on the part of each and everyone writing here. We all are going to come away with a heightened sense of our own reality, mortality and perhaps even our own future."
I could not have said it better.
"If John has been accurate on even a small portion of his future predictions (which by the way, he has made several, you simply have to carefully read the notes here) then my own thoughts follow along on the civil war, and even nuclear war. MY family will have a fallout shelter within a few months. "
At the least John seems to develop plausible, nay...probable analysis. I have this sometimes annoying habit of catching things based on the way they are phrased and I too caught several cue phrases that suggest predictions. I am not so fortunate as to have a shelter. I live 35 miles from downtown LA in a suburb. I would be atomized in a surprise attack. I plan to abandon the southland for someplce else if imminent attack occurs. I know a place that is likely not targetted for its non usefulness in a strategic strike. I plan to survive. Afterall, that would be a change and tragicaly facinating.
Also Rick, in playing catch up in the posts two days ago, I did come across your link, just have to go check it out further.
JOHN: That link you provided does indeed show pictures that were not on Doc's page. Actually its better, Doc's page has that annoying Comet Mouse thing that stalls my browser. It is interesting to note, for me anyway, that you use "archive" as a task label. I have used that myself over the years, but it is not a common phrase. Is it a label you use because of research?
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-16-2001 02:24 PM
((If John's device is real .it belongs to another world altogether. another GE, therefore it would violate no known copy right laws here.or patent laws here.))
(((Any government document can not be copyrighted. I could also argue that the manual "could" be from a future where it has become public domain but then again, it would mean proving I am a time traveler)))
I like the way the thread is going here.
I brought up the patent/copyright ideas because time travel does pose some interesting threats to intellectual property rights. We could argue that the future GE has no problem with the release of intellectual property into the public domain in 2036 and that they have no connection with our timeline. However it could still impact the present GE. It’s an interesting area to explore.
How do the two Boards of Directors protect their company(s) and their shareholders? For the doubters, again, let’s “jus’ ‘spose” that the research is ongoing today. It will not be cheap even if underwritten by the government. Shareholders have a right to expect a return on their investment and that includes protecting the company from disclosure of “secret” documents. John has released post-R&D materials. They are details of a working model. But their release is at a time while the R&D is in process. GE would not want potential competitors (Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Westinghouse, etc.) to have access to any such material.
What, if any, standing does a potential plaintiff have and how do they assert their rights? Where do they assert their rights (in what time and what court of law)?
John, I still have my doubts about your machine based on the science – but there’s always the chance that I’m wrong. So, I’m not changing-up on you but posing some questions for you and everyone else to consider. If we view the two worldlines as separate nations that have contact with each other and to some extent affect each other, then the political-legal implications have some validity. How do we resolve these issues as we move forward?
BTW – Government documents actually can be and are copyrighted. Here’s one example. The “California Building Standards” portion of the California Code of Regulations (Title 24) is copyrighted. This not only a government document, but it’s also the law of the State of California (go figure).
Taken from: http://www.oal.ca.gov
“Why is Title 24 (the California Building Standards) not included as part of this CCR Website?
Title 24 of the California Code of Regulations, known as California Building Standards, contains copyrighted materials under the ownership of several model code publishers and cannot be provided here. The eleven parts of Title 24 that comprise California's Building Standards are available for review at depository libraries, or for purchase in paper format from the copyright holders…”
When private companies are contracted by the government to do research there are contractual agreements between the parties as to which, if any, items discovered, written, produced, etc. are the property of the government and which are the property of the private company
Posted by Lola Montez on 03-16-2001 02:31 PM
I find Rick's attitute supportable as well. I think the youth are indeed ready to rumble. They are an angry and aggressive group to a large degree. It probably hasn't helped to watch the love and peace generation turn into the biggest, most hypocritical sell outs of all time. As long as members of the 60's generation take a yoga class once in a while they feel free to consume and pollute without a backward glance at the ideals they once held. (I am describing a good number of my friends. And, God help me, maybe myself as well) It must look obvious to the kids now that had we paid our ideals more than lip service the United States might be in better shape. It must make them bitter and also instill a good measure of hopelessness. My nephew is in a band that travels internationally and he comments on how the European youth do not have this hostility so present in all of the US cities he plays. So many of us are insulated in our little realities we just don't feel those currents.
One comment on infinite realities. Infinity is something we can't wrap our brains around. We just don't know what it means. We dismiss infinite realities as an impossible situation because it is as yet beyond the scope of the human brain. Mathematicians work on it as a "problem to solve". Mathematically, finite is as impossible as infinite. Go figure!
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-16-2001 03:14 PM
DARBY: Indeed it is interesting you bring up the possible problems of the R&D phase of a project being affected by post R&D documents. One thing you overlooked is that while GE is in direct competition (in some areas)with the other companies you list, I cannot recall a single project that was soley developed by a single contractor in recent time. Even various projects for NASA are Boeing/Lockheed products if I am not mistaken.
For Example: The B2 Bomber is a Northrop creation, they are Prime contractor....with sub-contracted systems developed in partnership with Lockhead and Boeing and scads of smaller companies as suppliers to these larger systems.
What I am suggesting is that while GE may be the Prime Contractor for the C204, it is unlikely they manufacture the entire unit in house. Certainly most of the research will encompass GE solely, but Lockheed is the only one I can think of that can come close to producing useable products *almost* by themsleves through skunk works. My assertion here as it relates to your question is that even if these docs 'from' 2036 are genuine, the impact is unlikely to alter anythink based on copyrighted status, for many companies will have had a hand in the process.
Besides, being that this is a separate world line from John's, the point is moot. At worst the development of the C204 is accellerated. No problem there for me. Also, maybe in John's world line a man introduced documents in 2001 that enabled the development of TT by 2034...hmmm
LOLA: Hypocrisy, that is what you described in relation to many 60's folk that sold out for the cash. I do not remember the 60's very well.....I was not alive yet.
Posted by John Titor on 03-16-2001 05:28 PM
((BTW – Government documents actually can be and are copyrighted. Here’s one example. The “California Building Standards” portion of the California Code of Regulations (Title 24) is copyrighted. This not only a government document, but it’s also the law of the State of California (go figure).))
My fault. It’s Federal documents.
“”Federal documents and publications are not copyrighted, and therefore are considered to be in the Public Domain.””
Courtesy of your web.
Posted by John Wade on 03-16-2001 08:21 PM
I didn't have time to read through all of John Titor's
statements. I do find it interesting that a high technology person from the near future who is into the dynamics of
moving objects through space and time doesn't even know the correct date for the Wright Brothers first motor powered
heavier than air aircraft flight which is 1903. He said 1910 which is way off. Its only the most important date in the history of aviation and flight other than 1969, the date
for Neil Armstrong's touch down on the moon. The 1903 date is in all the encyclopedias and history of aviation books.
To get the date wrong, and so totally wrong, to me is absolute proof that this person is a fraud. John
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-16-2001 10:47 PM
I do not know what the 60's folks sold out of. Since I was around then, you had two choices, either go to Vietnam or go to college. Take your pick, you had no other. What I see out of the young generation is more time for the future to take hold since I lived through very turbulent times. I wonder how really mad the young folks would be if they were drafted, or well, go to college. Seems younger people we tried to make the world better for, do not appreciate it.
How about they do something better, before they find out that life doesn't have to be nice!
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-16-2001 11:02 PM
Exactly, some enlisted because they knew otherwise they would be drafted. Excuse us if we decide to change our minds again and decide that drafting people would solve some problems in this country. Probably not, they are still convinced that the cure is college.
Certainly Norway or Denmark did not, they rescinded their Constitution for a couple of months last year or the year before because of problems I guess, then re-instituted it again. That has not happened in the US yet.
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-17-2001 01:07 AM
John, Got up this morning and checked the web sites and where you posted your new pictures yesterday is this message:
"Sorry, MSN Web Communities is temporarily unavailable while we update our service.
Our improved site will be up and running again as soon as possible.
We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause and encourage you to try back later.
Thank you! "
hmmm....Is there NO WHERE safe???? hhehehehe
what a coincidence...huh?
good news: Doc got his board back up and working...again.[Edited by Pamela Moore on 03-17-2001 at 01:16 AM]
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-17-2001 01:26 AM
I just checked the site again because I couldnt beleive it was down. you better check it...some of your pictures are gone and they have a little box with a red X in it........................just like Doc's board had.
wow...that IS weird.
hmmm....oh well...Iam sure it will be fixed soon.
when you click on the pictures that are still there you get this message:
"The server is temporarily unavailable.
Sorry, the server is maxed out now. Please try again later when the pressure lets up."
Nothing like being there at the right time and right place huh?? heheeh well, got to go...[Edited by Pamela Moore on 03-17-2001 at 01:32 AM]
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-17-2001 01:38 AM
hahahahah...went back again before I logged off and all the pictures are back up again.
well...I guess they were just updating their systems.
Posted by Andrew Hubbard on 03-17-2001 03:55 AM
1) How big is your time machine?
2) Is it possible that this world line ends at a different time to yours?
3) Does the bible code fortell any events that happen between now and 2036?
4) Is it possible to have a war between two different worldlines? for instance, mine and yours?
5) Couldn't you be the person single handedly responsible for not saving the man who finds the cure for cancer, or the person who finds out how to filter the sea water of nuclear polution, by not giving us advice on survival? There has been a lot more people who have done great deeds for makind than people that have nearly destroyed it.
6) How fast is the average connection to the internet in the future? is it all broadband?
Posted by John Titor on 03-17-2001 05:23 AM
((heavier than air aircraft flight which is 1903. He said 1910 which is way off. Its only the most important date in the history of aviation and flight other than 1969, the date))
I suppose its impossible to defend every possible combintation of what people want to see. I don't believe I said anything about the date for the first flight. All I did was pick a moment in history.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-17-2001 11:40 AM
Well, it had to have a 'Dear John' reply sometime.
Simply putting us in this multiple world-lines 'theory' to us is not known. Therefore, I can only relate to how the me in this worldline thinks about this multiple world-lines.
I am the boss of myself here, if anything, then the other mes in other world-lines that act worse than the me in this world-line do not have a chance. They can complain about it all they want, but since I am the boss here of me in this world-line, then I simply imply that I am killing off (those mes are actually killing themselves) those other world-lines where the me is worse, simply the me here will not put up with it. Then the me here is creating new world-lines where the mes bosses all think that we edge slowly towards a coherent whole before most of the mes 'goodly-mes' die, leaving the dead mes in the other morally bad worldlines to not have any choice in the say of it ( and they should now know to repent). Now, this is about as much sense as this multiple world-lines multiple realities means to me, here in this me worldline, and if no one including me can understand this new theory, than I have acheived my objective, understanding that the me in this world-line is still not sure that all this is happening at any given moment of time. This is the way to the 'Source' and all of the world-line mes can fight all we want to, but it will not do all of the infinite mes any good, I guess.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-17-2001 12:04 PM
I will now try to refine the previous post.
Since in the energy flux of the mes, we are all blinking in and out of existence at the energy level of existence. Since most humans are not aware of this sub, sub, sub-atomic energy level, where we all form into a sorta one energy flux, the infinite mes are always having meetings for a brief energy moment of all mes. Therefore, information of all of the mes can change world-lines at those moments of blinking in and the blinking out of existence of all the worldlines. This may lead to different part of mes exchanging with the exact same me that left this previous one world-line. The reason that most of the time this will not occur is because the information is retained by the me in the worldline that briefly left for this microscopic energy meet of all the mes, and ususally the same me that left one particular world-line will still usually be the same me that comes back to the same worldline. This is why we would all try to fight if meeting for the other mes know that this is going on also, and most of the time they cannot interfere with the good mes in the good worldlines and are left to travel back to their other worldlines where they take it out on those worldlines.
Thus all of the mes can never be sure that part of some of the mes just did not happen to change minutely even if just for a moment. This all goes on continually, as a way of interaction of all mes in all world-lines.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-17-2001 12:16 PM
Dissertion of Reality
It implies that the Universe and everything in the Universe of all universes in the superverse is nothing more than an form of energy. That the mass you imply that you see is nothing more at the sub, sub, sub, atomic level than energy, given form to appear to make it more appealing to us as a reality. This was dicussed in books in the mid 80's and I doubt if you will find anything about this subject on the Internet. Dealings about reality.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-17-2001 12:34 PM
Also, since everything everywhere is energy, this has allowed communication between these different energy 'states' and has allowed the creation of self 'consciousness' or self 'awareness' by the constant filtering action of the now energy 'states' left to determine how these energy 'states' dealt with determining the best way to develop these concepts and all concepts in all dimensions of all time. I guess one could call this the "All".
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-17-2001 12:47 PM
Now if no one is getting tired of this discussion. I will leave with the final thoughts and you can have all of your own thoughts.
Through the energy 'states' all meeting at all times, it is left to these moments of meetings to determine the most appropriate ways of getting to the "All-knowing" God figure we subscribe to. This does not imply that evil does not have its share of these moments, but simply in the end of the "All" if there is an end, then the figure of "God" has already won, and should evil still have its moments than it has been a bad decision on their parts of these energy 'meetings' of information.
Well, something like that.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-17-2001 01:00 PM
This implies the "soul" as being a self-healer, that may or may not correct itself, on the journey to the "All-knowing".
This implies that the journey can perhaps be as long and as knowing as it allows itself to be and that we are left with a "Wonderful God" and the "All" is of good design.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-17-2001 01:24 PM
Not to 'hog' this thread, for I am busy, very busy.
<b> I do not see the need for bomb shelters. Did I not state that it may do you no good.</b>
The fact that underground water sources, that exist, may be at least be partly shielded from such a blatant exchange of radioactive fallout, including the lead in it and other parts that may have to be filtered out, may leave a source of water, but that would depend on where you set up camp, when the stupidness ends if the radioactive event should happen.
I leave you with your own thoughts about this.
Petersen Guide to Wild Berries.
Petersen Guide to Mammals on the North American Continent.
Petersen Guide to Birds of the North American Continent.
etc, etc, the end.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-17-2001 02:58 PM
Conclusion of the "Perfect Symmetry of All".
As an example:
In Einstein's Equation there are four possible 'states' of reality.
These four would be:
+E = +(MC^2)
-E = +(MC^2)
+E = -(MC^2)
-E = -(MC^2)
The two middle results are of an imaginery numbering system.
The signs are not minus, but negative.
The two middle equations cancel out, forming a "nonexistence". The other two equations form "existence".
E = MC^2
-E = -(MC^2).
Now we must venture in to the imaginery worlds of existence.
I leave you to your own thoughts.
As Einstein stated "God does not play dice with the Universe".
To do other, may lead to irrational and implausible 'states' for existence, that can not ever be as been defined.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-17-2001 03:05 PM
Oh, I beg for your pardon with all of this existence.
It is all contained in the Chocolate Sandwich Cremes filled cookies or in a slice of Apple Pie or with a scoop of Ice Cream of your choice.
This leaves anyone to deal with the anti-dimensions. We all conclude that dealing with anti-dimensions may be a waste of time, for we break down the "set" of mathematics (existence) to suit our own purposals.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-17-2001 03:16 PM
Oh, I concluded with a new word "purposals". Its a combination of "purpose" and "proposals". I just did not know that I did that, but now I do.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-17-2001 03:54 PM
Therefore, there is "infinite world-lines where morals equal zero" and a "anti infinite world-lines where morals equal zero", which we do not use in the reality we subscribe to; and the two imaginary existence that does no good or evil to prove.
Therefore, there are more "All of yous" in existence, that can be proved mathematically, for to define "Mathematics", you have to reduce every equation for its proof to zero equals zero. Equations must pass that test or you have no "Mathematics". It would be reduced to absurtium.
I beg for your pardon with all of the yous in all of existence.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-17-2001 04:09 PM
Yous are left free, free, free, free, to receive, receive, receive, receive with all of "This".
You have permission to receive.
Yous may put yours "Evil Eyes" along with yours "anti-Evil Eyes" and yours "Imaginery Evil Eyes" along with yours "anti Imaginery Evil Eyes" to all of "This".
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-17-2001 04:21 PM
There is then the possibility of "surround protection" that protects these clumps of energy, although I suppose, that if allowed to break down, that can happen also.
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-17-2001 05:28 PM
Away the political-legal palaver and back to science for a bit…
A few of our posts back in reply to my comment, “A simple E=Mc^2 is not the answer…you need real, not virtual mass” to form the singularity” you said “Not True” or close thereto.
You’re still missing it, John, as we talk about singularities, Hawking Radiation and General Relativity.
The universe that you described, that is, one where mass is accelerated to light speed and forms a singularity doesn’t exist. If that were so you have some really bad problems:
1. As you accelerated to light speed in your machine you and your machine formed a black hole
2. From your perspective as you accelerated to light speed every other object in the universe formed a black hole due to your relative velocities
Of course neither event occurred. The problem is the comic book view of General Relativity and the definition of mass in E=Mc^2.
The word “mass” has two distinct and very different definitions:
Mr = relativistic mass
Mo = invariant mass (rest mass)
Invariant mass is independent of v velocity.
You are stating your singularity forms as a result of Mr = E/c^2…The formula is correct. The statement is not.
The definition of rest mass is Mo = sqrt (E^2/c^4 – p^2/c^2)
p=momentum! Momentum…motion…kinetic energy! Its not there in E=Mc^2.
The comic book view that General Relativity somehow suggests that a if a body is accelerated to light speed that it will form a singularity is based on the formula “2GM/c^2”. That is, if the body is squeezed small enough by acceleration its radius will be smaller than the Schwarzschild radius surrounding it…it falls inside of the event horizon. This comes from very early interpretations of General relativity which ignored momentum and angular momentum…it was a static solution. Einstein himself stated that it applied to kinetic energy – not rest mass. There are many places where this can be verified. American Journal of Physics, 55, 739 (1987) which quotes from a 1907 interview with Dr. Einstein; “Out of My Later Years”, Einstein, Albert (1950), Philosophical Library, NY, Chapter 11 (“E=Mc^2”) note: I’m proud to possess a very nice copy of this tomb.
Your science is still very wrong, John. (And the baseball players at Stanford should know better than to suggest that a VW would form in the accelerator – it would be an Audi)
Posted by John Titor on 03-17-2001 06:04 PM
((..where mass is accelerated to light speed and forms a singularity doesn’t exist.))
I can't find where I said that. Could you point that for me?
Posted by Anthony Reed on 03-17-2001 06:37 PM
I went to see your pictures, the one is a bit dark. The red light arc. I liked the cutaway view but, will you be posting the picture of the key or legend that goes with the cut away view? Let us know when or if you will, please. thank you.
Posted by Bob Marz on 03-17-2001 08:04 PM
John: You didn't say "..where mass is accelerated to light speed and forms a singularity..." but you did chide Emmitt a few pages back saying "E=MCsquared can be solved for mass too."[Edited by Bob Marz on 03-17-2001 at 08:07 PM]
Posted by John Titor on 03-17-2001 08:31 PM
((You didn't say "..where mass is accelerated to light speed and forms a singularity..." but you did chide Emmitt a few pages back saying "E=MCsquared can be solved for mass too."))
The speed of light squred is a constant number used to represent the variation between energy and mass. It does not imply that acceleration is required to change or represent the other.
Posted by Michael E. Hendrickson on 03-17-2001 08:36 PM
Hey, Cattoir, enough of your "cybernoise". (How's that for a neologism?) Get thee to an abattoir!,( metaphorically speaking, of course.) MH[Edited by Michael E. Hendrickson on 03-17-2001 at 08:38 PM]
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-17-2001 11:21 PM
The accelleration to light speed is implied in your reference to virtual mass. Virtual particles travel at light speed. I tried to give you an out there but you insisted that the mass was virtual.
John was born sometime between 1954 and 1956. He attended a west coast university, UC Davis, UC Berkeley or Stanford. He has an IQ of about 120 but was never a physical science major. His major was either cultural anthropology or general sociology. He may have dropped out in his senior year but his expected year of graduation was between 1975 and 1977. He took, as an elective, cosmology, introduction to astronomy or both. He did not take any upper division physical science. Neither of his parents graduated from a university but managed to provide a very stable life for him.
His understanding of physics is based on 1970's emerging physics but he didn't keep abreast of the advances in the field until about six months ago. His new knowledge since that time is based on cursory internet searches so that he can respond to inquiries. He is very intelligent and a deceptively good debater even though his knowledge of physics is limited and a quarter of a century out-of-date.
John, I laud your effort to have tried to take on such an onorous task as to debate both the social issues of futurism and the scientific debates of physics. Next time, though, bite off a small slice.[Edited by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-17-2001 at 11:27 PM]
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-18-2001 01:01 AM
Splendid work Emmett .
Took a look at your pictures of your Supposed “Time Travel Device” on the other message board.
And usually I can pick whether it’s outwardly or just an ordinary piece of technology.
(Partial Psychic remember )
And I couldn’t pick up anything, no hidden impressions, no memories, all I could see was something just put together with no real purpose.
Well in a way I did pick up something, maybe just 2 Army soldiers.
Btw, Where did you steal it from ?
Lately I have not had any Time Travel dreams. But visions I have. And non show you as a Time Traveler. Sorry .
Posted by John Titor on 03-18-2001 05:57 AM
((The accelleration to light speed is implied in your reference to virtual mass. Virtual particles travel at light speed. I tried to give you an out there but you insisted that the mass was virtual.))
The word implied is not a very stable platform to come up with a profile for my parents education but I applaud your attempt.
Well at least we aren’t seeing any more thermal and mass stabs in the dark. Interesting profile but you couldn’t slide me just 10 more points on the I.Q.?
Are you suggesting that in all cases there must be an acceleration component in the conversion of energy to mass or mass to energy?
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-18-2001 07:37 AM
<<<Are you suggesting that in all cases there must be an acceleration component in the conversion of energy to mass or mass to energy? >>>
No. Just the present case.
The bigger question is why you weren't aware of the difference between relativistic mass (M sub-r) and invariant mass (M sub-o). You've consistently misapplied relativistic mass in situations where invarient mass is to be used. This isn't new information...its a century old. Its a common mistake among pop-science buffs to misapply the terms. Michio Kaku wrote "Hyperspace" and Steven Hawking wrote "A Brief History of Time". These were wonderful books so far as pop-science is concerned. They aren't, nor are they intended to be, the foundation for PhD level physics discussions. You're understanding of physics is at the level of those two books and I'm assuming that they are heavily drawn upon by you as source material.
John has held several jobs during the past 25 years, but hasn't held any one for more than about 8 years. He interviews well and has no problem getting hired. He annoys his co-workers and especially his supervisor. He's a 60's Northern California child and has a problem with authority. He works best when he works alone. He's taught before, probably at the Community College level (Palomar Commuity College?) and maybe even at the State College level (SF State?). He still lives in the Bay area.[Edited by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-18-2001 at 08:11 AM]
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-18-2001 08:51 AM
heres my profile on John,
(guessing on some of course!)heheh
John is a 38 year old male. who has roughly around the same IQ I do and could probably pass a Mensa exam .
He is a kind and caring individual who was chosen to go on a mission based on who he was related to and how easily he could get the person to cooperate.and his skills obtained at his university.
He is able to work alone and under great pressure he is very calm. although he has a great sense of responsibility and morals he will defend himself and others when confronted to the point of taking a life if needed. He believes strongly in peoples rights and freedoms and his community.he cant stand lazy people who dont work.he is a good samaritan and will not pass by the wounded man laying on the side of the road. He feels accountable to God for his actions.
He has the basic knowledge to operate and control his machine .although he is not a physicist he understands the basics in the way his machine operates and can make minor repairs if needed and he greatly exceeds in the area of mathematics.
his favorite food is oranges.and he loves to sail.and read old magazines and books of life before the war.he likes to communicate with other people on the internet and gets joy out of just the communicating experience.sharing ideas and learning of history.
and his parents are just as kind and wonderful as he is.
Posted by Bob Marz on 03-18-2001 09:19 AM
Hey, let me try this too!
Pamela is a loyal person (with dark hair) who (while having an overly inflated opinion of Mensa) greatly admires John Titor and has been actively involved or consulting in the Titor memoirs on the ArtBell BBS message board, mainly on the posts concerning social issues.
Pamela had a black and white Teddy Bear and though she's passed through San Rafael many times has never stopped there. She once ate Chinese food in a small town called North Salinas, CA.
My name is Bob, I have an IQ of 60, on a good day, and I am a member of Densa. And even I sensed there was a problem on the acceleration/mass singularity issue.[Edited by Bob Marz on 03-18-2001 at 09:23 AM]
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-18-2001 09:28 AM
HEHEHEHE you are funny!
p.s. that chinese food was good too! heheh[Edited by Pamela Moore on 03-18-2001 at 10:22 AM]
Posted by Randy Empey on 03-18-2001 10:46 AM
Now, are you arriving at these 'facts' through the written word equivalent of phrenology -- or have you actually played amatuer detective and tracked our storyteller here down?
If it is textual-phrenology, I would be interested in knowing what you've deduced from my words here.
If its amatuer detective work, I'm not certain how you are going to get people here to believe you.
Lets assume for a moment that all john has said is true or at least accurate to his knowledge.
They didn't send back a physics proffessor, but a more down to earth type guy whose experience in the field would help with survival. Of course, he mentioned that having family in the right area was a major factor, but -- there is a number of good reasons they wouldn't send thier equivalent of Stephen Hawkin back here.
If you don't know how your time machine works, you are pretty much stuck to the game plan -- less improvision, less hotwiring, more possibility that the objectives will actually be achieved.
I'd be suspicious if John's concept of the physics involved made much more sense than it does now.
Currently, there are two main possibilities from my POV --- he is fake and is a gifted story teller (his tale is self-supporting in it incompleteness, a hard thing to achieve on purpose), or he is real and definetly not a top of the line 21st century physicist.
Basically, tell us where you got your most recent profile for him --- textual-phrenology, amatuer detective work, imagination? Where?[Edited by Randy Empey on 03-18-2001 at 10:53 AM]
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-18-2001 11:57 AM
If it helps the 'dogma' of this forum topic, "they" have found traces of antimatter in this Universe.
Even Enstein would know that both views of his equation is real.
+ (E) = + (MC^2)
and the anti-Universe
- (E) = - (MC^2)
And I might add "just as expected by proven mathematics".
While we're dicussing life and death, here is something playful:
Death be with us and with us all.
Ever lurking near or far.
Death may be lurking just around the corner.
Death, Death, Death.
Its a wonder we are still all alive on this Planet, maybe it should read.
Live be with us and with us all.
Ever lurking near or far.
Life may be lurking just around the corner.
Life, Life, Life.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-18-2001 02:34 PM
Hey Pamela, that profile you made for John sounds just like me too . Except I'm not that Old, I am Anti-Time Travel, and I have a high keen sense in picking things up that are flawed, especially when someone claims to be from the future. Other then that, it's just like looking right in the mirror .
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-18-2001 04:27 PM
Its not related to "written phrenology". Its associated with linguistics and statistical modelling of the use of English words in this case. (And any detective work would definitely not be amateur <wink>
Language, written or spoken, is broken down into regional dialects and even temporal dialects. That is, when and where you learned to speak and write a language will determine how you tend to use it (patterns, word frequency, colloquialisms, idioms, "buzz words" etc.) Someone born in the late 1920's (my parents for instance) speaks the language differently than I...that is: upon very close inspection a distinct difference is seen.
You can analyze the written word of a target and make some very reliable guesses about what, when and where they are (were). WIth a sufficiently large volume of written words you can even determine who the writer is (maybe). One use is to help validate newly discovered historical documents that are associated with an historical figure: is the document a forgery or real?
John's use of the English is very (and I mean VERY) baby-boomer typical. Give that a degree of confidence of 90%+. There is absolutely nothing in his use of the English language that is atypical of someone born in the United States between 1945-1975 (degree of confidence 99%).[Edited by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-18-2001 at 05:49 PM]
Posted by John Titor on 03-18-2001 05:33 PM
((John's use of the English is very (and I mean VERY) baby-boomer typical.))
I actually worked quite hard on that. It appears the physics questions have come to a hault but at least you're not insulting about my mother anymore. Thanks.
((There is absolutely nothing in his use of the English language that is atypical of someone born in the United States between 1945-1975 (degree of confidence 99%).))
Perhaps you could raise your confidence level to 100% by going from 30 to say... 100 years; maybe 1930 - 2030?
The tools you use to have that much faith in my profile must be pretty good. I'm interested in what you compared me with. How exactly does a person born in 1998 who traveled across worldlines from 2036 use the English language?
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-18-2001 06:02 PM
The use of the language isn't something you can practice so that you can change it. The linguistic synapses were formed by the time you were three years of age - by age 12 they were fully developed (which is why aphasic children over the age of 11 or 12 rarely learn to talk). Much like a polygraph, the analysis would reveal the forced use of the language via inconsistencies. There is no such anamoly in your syntax, frequency, idiomatic usage, etc. Northern California baby-boomer American Standard English with a slight Depression Era southeastern U.S. "accent" from your parents.
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-18-2001 06:18 PM
The answer to the question, "How does a person born in 1998 use the language...?" is - who knows? Those persons are three years old today and just learning to speak. What we do know, however, is that during the course of their life they will learn how to talk by age 12...and the common usage of the language will be statistically different than what we use today.
Everyone knows this instinctively. We can listen to a movie made in the 1960's, for instance, and there is no doubt that we are listening to a movie made in the 60's based on the dialogue. We also have a pretty good chance of figuring out that the script for a recently made 60's style movie was written in the 90's - the words seem forced, contrived, unnatural. The untrained person may not be able to put his or her "finger on it", but they can tell the difference. It's also possible to quantify the difference.
Your new name is John "Boomer" Titor
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-18-2001 06:21 PM
Well now John, Golly! I would take that there as a compliment.oh nelly!
yes siree! by george! You studied that area and I would say you "passed with fly'in colors!" "your as smart as a whip!"
oops! excuse me not using terminology from my generation.
WHATZZZZ UPPP??? (heheheeheheh)
Gee wizz! Im so confused I almost forgot what generation I came from! what letter are we now? "X" "Y" "D"????
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-18-2001 06:51 PM
Come now Pamela, I think you shouldn’t take John’s defeats to personal. I mean there is a difference when you defend a friend, and when you stand up for someone because of devotion to a cause. I’m sure John can fight his battles just well on his own.
After all, who else here has a cheerleader on the side supporting anyone in particular?
No one, just you…
So this question is for you John, do you feel like you need to be defended?
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-18-2001 07:01 PM
Come now Javier, I was just having fun with Darby!!
But as for my cheerleading....
Give me a "J"
Give me an "O"
Give me a "HN"
whats it spell? JOHN!!! GO JOHN GO!
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-18-2001 08:30 PM
My bad Pamela, but I just call'em how I see'em .
You know, just like actions speak louder then words.[Edited by Javier Cortez on 03-18-2001 at 08:34 PM]
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-18-2001 08:46 PM
Good thing your not an umpire.
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-18-2001 09:15 PM
Darby said:"Your new name is John "Boomer" Titor."
you might have to take this name since he COPYRIGHTED your other name! (snicker..heehehheeh.. I know you are laughing John!)[Edited by Pamela Moore on 03-18-2001 at 09:27 PM]
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-18-2001 09:53 PM
Nah, I’ll give John something to really laugh about .
"Johnny has a girlfriend, Johnny has a girlfriend.”
I know I’m LOL, heehe
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-18-2001 10:10 PM
Well, hopefully the Russians do not screw up the total eclipse in the year 2017 passing through around the center line by Cleveland, Ohio.
In fact, what can you do at the end of March of any year?
Well, you can visit your local astronomical society and view all 110 Messier object in the sky at night.
Only time during the year around when you can do this.
Don't worry, your eyes will adjust to the dark.
Hooray, for the dark.
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-19-2001 07:07 AM
Although I can appreciate the study of language and the determination of locality based on that, I would suspect that IF John is from the future, language pattern would have changed and in some ways not progressed too much insofar as patterns. John painted a picture of a world in distress for many years, and indeed our US. Looking back in my studies to WW2, there were many things that changed and progressed, but what did not change was language.....except slang terms.
I have not noticed too many slang terms from John, but I have noticed some (real or not) difficultly with certain phrasing. I refer you back to earlier in the thread when questions arose from phrases involving 'sell out' type of things. I am not an expert on language, but aspire to be so I am not saying I am correct. I am just guessing that if John is from the future, and less focus is applied to money and greed, as he implied, phrases implying the selling and buying of goods as slang, would be confusing. That remains consistent.
I am all for being skeptical, but approaching the language factor is not, to me, proof John is from our time. Conversely, it does not imply he is from the future either. His story actually supports the idea he is from the future when subtleties such as what I mention are look at. Go figure, we are still at the point of maybe-maybe not.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-19-2001 07:29 AM
John Wade: To get the date wrong, and so totally wrong, to me is absolute proof that this person is a fraud. John
Actually John, that doesn't prove anything except he got the date wrong, and that he is human. Even historians do not remember every single, important date in history.
For instance... can you tell me the exact date and time that the Lucitannia was sunk? Can you tell me the exact day and time of D-Day? Can you tell me what day Louis Pasteur came up with the "vaccination"?
I mean... think about it. You can certainly look those things up if you're so inclined - and answer them, BUT, do you know them RIGHT NOW, without looking them up?
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-19-2001 07:36 AM
Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire: Darby I liked your take on John's background. Please do mine now.
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-19-2001 08:12 AM
I mean, this hole talk iz gettin' perty intense, dude.
Any guesses? Where is that lingo from? Written language is interesting, but if I were to go in the past, I would study the language and customs. Much as one might study language and customs before travelling abroad. Sounds like I am defending John, but I need not do so. Here is the excerpt from Johns post on page 40:
>((John's use of the English is very (and I mean VERY) >baby-boomer typical.))
>I actually worked quite hard on that.
John stated he worked on talking our talk. At the least, his story is still plausible and consistent. May I urge people to quote the phrases being used when being critical of them. Page numbers help. I am enjoying the speculation, but linguistics in this case are also subject to interpretation. My interpretation supports Johns assertion he is in florida and a native of there.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-19-2001 08:13 AM
Interesting this "language" thing Darby came up with. I'm certain he is correct in his assessment of listening to a movie made in the 1960s, or '50s. I know that I can personally tell you from the dialect of a movie without having seen the video running approximately which year the movie was made. Of course, there is a degree of inaccuracy in doing so.
As far as dialect changes go, I'm sure that from decade to decade there are obvious changes and some not so obvious changes. There are terms I remember from when I was a kid that are used even now. There are things I've seen in movies made before I was born, that also are in use, even now.
I do not see that this placing someone based on their language is an exact science.
John/Pamela - Pictures. I have plenty of web space, and I expect the site to remain online (though is has gone down on and off over the past couple of years due to weird problems). My web site http://survival.anomalies.net and another site I assist in managing http://www.anomalies.net are both available for the video, as well as the pictures. I have the pictures already and will try to get them up on my site tonight - under the heading of "Time Travel".
If and when there is a video made available - I would be happy to convert that into a format (or several formats) for the computer and place it online for download. I would be more than willing to come film it independently myself - if John wishes (besides which, I would love to be there to see it for myself - if only to know for myself that it is real).
So - John, you're welcome to contact me privately and I will personally arrange my own travel, and bring my cameras and video the whole thing - with complete confidence that I will not reveal location, time, date or anything else until after your departure.
About Albert Cattior... I'm wondering if Albert himself isn't a time traveler as well.. and is suffering some sort of time dysphasia or something. <chuckles>
Speaking of that - John, if you have time before you go.. are there any known mental disorders that are associated with time travel?
Lastly: Someone mentioned (Sorry, can't remember who now, or where I read it, but it was this forum) something about "shelters won't be needed". If I understood the gist of this statement, it was meant in the terms that if a nuclear attack becomes a reality, a shelter will be useless.
That can not be further from the truth. I can tell you I am accutely aware of what atomic/thermonuclear weapons are capable of doing - and what they are NOT capable of doing. I also know that depending on the attack and the type of weapon, not only is an attack survivable, placing yourself and your loved ones, as well as a few weeks worth of food in a fallout shelter will protect you from fallout radiation.
My web site has survival information on it regarding such things, and believe it or not, it comes from the US Government. So, even they believe nuclear strikes are survivalable. They just do not press that publicly, because 1) they do not want to panic people (because if the government says you should have a shelter, conspiracy theorists suddenly become convinced the government is trying to warn us without warning us, it upsets natives of other nuclear powers into believing WE will start a war - etc). 2) Doing so legitimizes the use of nuclear weapons to everyone, thus making it more of a possibility they will be used without a second thought to doing so. 3) It will raise the price of land throughout the United States. Precived "safe zones" would go up in value - especially with pre-existing shelters. I'm sure there are other reasons I haven't thought of, but suffice it to say that the government DOES believe nuclear war is survivable. Just not by everyone.
I believe it as well. I'm not one of those guys that wants to be around for the blast. With my luck I would get blinded and blown around, but not killed outright, leaving me blinded and crippled and not able to fend for myself, left to die miserably. I'd prefer a fighting chance. Give me a basement, some water and a little food and I will make due. Don't count the human race off as defeated the minute the nukes start flying. We've been around a long time, and will continue to be around for many more centuries.
The question is not, can or will the human race survive. The question is how WELL will they survive?
Rick[Edited by Rick Donaldson on 03-19-2001 at 08:18 AM]
Posted by Mel Reckling on 03-19-2001 08:32 AM
A total eclipse in Cleveland in 2017? WOW!! Finally something our fair city will be famous for. By the way, we put out our "Flaming River" back in 1969 for those of you who think it is still on fire.
We better get busy writing out invitations if we only have 16 years left.
Posted by Bob Marz on 03-19-2001 09:04 AM
Darby, As brilliant as I think you are, I just can't buy it that your linguistic analysis is all THAT comprehensive and precise. You have no voice inflection, no body language or handwriting patterns to supplement the analysis. Only his printed texts. And I think a smart person, intuitively aware of the more common giveaways, could take care to maintain a neutral linguistic demeanor. I suspect, if you do have a high success rate with your method, it's because you yourself have psychic abilities (that are being sublimated through your more mundane rationalization). Your leftbrain is doing a wonderful job explaining what your rightbrain is doing. The breadth of your insights suggest, otherwise, an external source of information.
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-19-2001 09:07 AM
You haven't submitted enough written material to use statistically. Boomer has submitted materials all over the net - thousands and thousands of words. Its not magic or para-psychology. Its simply statistics. Sorry.
Posted by Randy Empey on 03-19-2001 10:20 AM
quote:Basically, tell us where you got your most recent profile for him --- textual-phrenology, amatuer detective work, imagination? Where?
quote:Its not related to "written phrenology". Its associated with linguistics and statistical modelling of the use of English words in this case. (And any detective work would definitely not be amateur <wink>
Of course I am leaving out a lot, but I'd like to shine the hypothetical laser pointer at these two things.
So ... its not phrenology of the written word, and not amatueur detective work, and we are led to think that it is not imagination or non-amatueur detective work.
In fact, it is heralded as an off-shoot of modern linguistics and statistical modelling of the usage of English words.
If that is not at least simmular to textual-phrenology, I am misunderstanding things.
Which is completely possible.
But it involves statistics, which I've always had a superstitious disbelief in.
You have to be very carefull to qualify your results. Can you establish a one to one relationship between certain subsets of attributes and certain subsets of people? Not absolutely. But you may be able to come close enough to make your 90% probable guesses --- but the amount of work that would really take would be staggering.
If you undertook it, then I salute you. But still respectfully choose to view this as only one of many possibilities here, with no special status.
The sample sizes involved (that I am aware of) are simply not large enough to lend the confidence levels you are implying.
It would take the analysis and comparison of billions of words from millions of reasonably 'representative' individuals, and then a relativily large number of words from the target.
At least thats my intuition, and I've yet to see proof or convincing evidence hinting strongly enough to the contrary.
John simply hasn't written enough words here. Perhaps you've dug through his trash and anaylyzed his snail-mail correspondence . .. making your sample size bigger, and more representative ... but would it be big enough?
Way too many variables to play with here, even for the mythic strengths of 'statistics'.
Language usage is mutable. Upbringing and other factors of environment have effects. But so do conciouis decisions while composing, the nature of the form of communication, the subject's emotional state at the moment, the proximity of a thesaurus, etc..
At the moment, 'he' could be a accidental persona who is the results of thousands of chimpanzees in a labs across the usa, involved in a program that posts the results from thier typing on gov. issued typewriters onto the internet, when it seems to make sense. The timing, and appearant 'on topic'-ness is then just a weird coincedence.
That is just as likely as any of the profiles presented so far.
Explain why this isn't phrenology of the written word -- or diff. enough from phrenology that we should pay attention to it.
Maybe we should devote a thread to such 'profiling' ... where gurus like yourself analyze all comers ....
n. Abbr. phren.
The study of the shape and protuberances of the skull, based on the now discredited belief that they reveal character and mental capacity.
How many days left here John?
If they started a 'countdown' would it embarrass you or feed your ego?[Edited by Randy Empey on 03-19-2001 at 10:50 AM]
Posted by Lola Montez on 03-19-2001 11:25 AM
I thought Darby's observations interesting. Since I read his post I have tuned into a couple of old movies; 40's or 50's stuff. The differences can be subtle but they are there. I will now be listening for those linguistic time bubbles whenever I hear conversation or a movie. It is especially fun listening to my nephews in their early twenties. I agree that during crisis those sorts of changes may happen more slowly (with less media input) but I should think John's phrases and slang would more resemble that of my nephew's than my own. Also, I don't understand why it would have been important to study the nuances of the time for John's particular mission. Certainly, a turn 1900's era gentleman could carry on a conversation today without being suspected of being a time traveler.
This is an interesting and educational way to view John's claims. Far superior to mindless bashing or searching for stock tips. I bet John enjoys this scrutiny as well. After all, what does he have to loose if we believe him or not. This board is hardly big time exposure.
Darby, do you mind saying what you do for a living? It seems your background must be varied to have insight into both linguistics and physics. How about a profile of yourself.
Lola[Edited by Lola Montez on 03-19-2001 at 11:30 AM]
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-19-2001 11:28 AM
Posted by Randy Empey on 03-19-2001 11:49 AM
I'm not really saying your linguistic-phrenology, or whatever you call it, has no validity --- just that its validity is yet to field-proven to the masses here, or at least myself.
Why don't you share the specifics and your reasoning, as you share the results?
Where does your data come from, exactly.
What expertise do you draw upon?
Is this like Javier's intuition -- which would be perfectly fine, as long as your honest about the source of your knowing, and don't expect us to believe you implicity with out a good 'track record'.
Or is this some scientific method you've troubled yourself to learn -- which would also be perfectly fine, as long as you share your work, if you expect to be believed.
Question to John:
Does this linguistic phrenology type 'technology' have a prominent existance (that you know of, of course) in your native time?[Edited by Randy Empey on 03-19-2001 at 11:54 AM]
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-19-2001 01:00 PM
Here's a couple of hyperlinks:
Computer: Security retina scan complete.
Dr. Carol Markus: Project Genesis ... A Proposal to the Federation
Spock: Carol Markus
Dr. Carol Markus: Exactly what is Genesis? Put simply, Genesis is life from lifelessness. It is a process whereby molecular structure is reorganized at the subatomic level into life-generating matter of equal mass.
Spock: It literally is Genesis.
Kirk: The power of creation!
Bones: Dear Lord, do you think we're intelligent enough to, suppose, what if this thing was used where life already exist?
Spock: It would destroy such life in favor of its new matrix.
Bones: This new matrix! Do you have any idea what you're saying?
Spock: I was not attempting to evaluate its moral implications, Doctor. As a matter of cosmic history, it has always been easier to destroy than to create.
Bones: Not any more! Now we can do both at the same time. According to myth, the Earth was created in six days, now watch out, here comes Genesis, we'll do it for you in six minutes!
Spock: Really Doctor McCoy, ...you must learn to govern your passions. They will be your undoing. Logic suggests....
Bones: Logic?! My God, the man's talking about Logic, we're talking about Universal Armageddon! You green blooded, inhuman.
Bridge to Admiral Kirk: Admiral, sensors indicate a vessel in our area, closing fast.
Kirk: What do you make of her?
Bridge: Its one of ours, Admiral, its Reliant!
Kirk: Try the emergency channels.......Picture Mr. Sajvek.
Kahn: Slow to one half impulse power, lets be friends.
Movie: 1982, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Kahn
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-19-2001 01:26 PM
What'd that have to do with anything? Unless you were talking about the moral implications of time travel.
Linquistic phrenology.. I think it is a crock.
Tell you what my friend, since I haven't written enough here, please, feel free to use my web site as your model. There are litterally gigabytes of my writing there. Articles, news, views, op-ed... even a biography. But, it doesn't tell all. I suggest though, you not read the bio if you have any propriety regarding this so-called ability to predict where people have been in their lives using their words as a guide.
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-19-2001 01:43 PM
Some very brief notes on my background would contain reference to a degree in Experimental Psychology (including psycholinguistics and neuro-physiology). Psycholinguistics is the study of the psychology of speech - phonetics (This is Noam Chomsky’s work). Professionally the notes would include work in the intelligence community including de-briefing.
Phrenology, the work of the German scholar Franz Joseph Gall (very early 19th Century), is a word that has too many negative connotations that have little to do with Herbert Spencer’s work in evolutionary biology. It dredges up pictures of Gestapo “scientists” seeking out Jews based on skull and facial knots, ridges and shapes or 19th Century English detectives "identifying" criminals by similar methods.
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-19-2001 01:51 PM
John is a White male of 38 years who may or may not be a time traveller. He shows a well worked knowledge of Time based technology. He claims to not be a scientist, and understands how his machine is supposed to work.
By his own claim, he has more documentation, but chooses not to share it. This makes sense to me, for if I were a TT, I would not give out more than I chose to. In fact, here on the bbs, we each can simply give just the details of what we want others to know. In subtle ways John has given predictions and even 1 date that I came across. This does not validate Johns status, but in the coming days to years we all shall see.
In a nutshell, methods such as linguistic phrenology may have some credit, but no evidence of how that 'science' was utilized in the 'john model' has been given. That leads itself to be just as known as Johns real status as a TT or not.
I suggest that those with the gutteral umph to do it, go back. Read ALL of Johns statements. Put them together. Analyze what was written. Not for Regional specificity, but for the small details that were scattered about. If not read carefully, one might miss things stated.
Bash me if you like, but I am at a point were I sincerely HOPE John is a TT. None of us can say yeah or nay really as a point of fact, and if at this point John said, " Oh, btw, I am just a fella from Little Rock Arkansas ", can that really be absolved as true? Not really.
Fun Ain't It?
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-19-2001 02:09 PM
Spock: Admiral, scanning an energy source on Reliant, a pattern I've never seen before.
Kirk's Son, David: Its the Genesis Wave.
David: They're on a build up to detonation.
Kirk: How soon?
David: We encoded four minutes.
Kirk: We'll beam aboard and stop it.
David: You can't.
Kirk: Scotty, I need warp speed in three minutes or we're all dead!
Uhara: No response, Admiral!
Kirk: Scotty, ..... Mr. Zulu, get up out of here, best possible speed.
Bones: Are you out of your Vulcan mind! No human can tolerate the radiation that's in there!
Spock: As you are so fond of observing, I am not human.
Bones: You're not going in there!
Spock: Perhaps, you're right. What is Mr. Scott's condition? ...... I'm sorry, Doctor, I have no time to discuss this logically! ........Remember!
Movie: Star Trek II, The Wrath of Kahn
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-19-2001 05:45 PM
Anyone notice how quiet John has become in the recent days? It happened just around the time Darby was commenting on his use of his supposed 2036 language .
Just call’em how I see’em.
John you’ve done this Machiavellian routine so much, it’s predictable now. Whenever anyone comments on anything you don’t know how to answer or that might expose you, you go quiet and answer back in a few days. And make the excuse of being busy archiving, when you do fine an answer to it.
If that doesn’t spell fraud and opportunistic traits, then a lot of people are blind and can’t obverse the obvious.
Posted by Anthony Reed on 03-19-2001 06:06 PM
John said he would be leaving in the spring, that officially is only 2 days away. If you were packing to go somewhere (time travel or not) you have to get things ready don't you?
And you are on the internet, there is no such thing as obvious.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-19-2001 06:34 PM
Are you new here Anthony?
John said on March 10th, that he would be leaving in 30 days. That would make it about April 10th or 11th.
I will be leaving at around the same time, and may return in about a month or so hehe.
Posted by Kevin Spooner on 03-19-2001 06:44 PM
And now we know why the christ-force had to return three days after bodily death. Maybe, just maybe he came back to his apostles not owing to some predestined miracle, but because he was getting such a heavenly headache...
And perhaps thereafter said to them "Listen here you sqaubling bunch of know-it-alls, you-too Judas! Stop infighting amongst each other about who's right, who's wrong, what your instinct or intellect is telling you, just get out there. You've got all you need now to get on with the job."
Or maybe the christ force said, Hey! Is not cool dude. Watzup da matter? Gotta cold ur sumtink? Getcha out mun! Catch ya de later!
Who, and I mean, WHO really really cares.
More the point, if I was JT the TT person, I would be thinking What the H*LL - I've tried but right now I just don't care. Off to catch my broomstick and that's all that matters right now.
Later (dude. hehe).
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-19-2001 06:56 PM
Did John really say that?
((John said on March 10th, that he would be leaving in 30 days. That would make it about April 10th or 11th.)))
Hey! that is MY vacation week too! we could like all have a big party or something down there!!! heheheh
Posted by Tom Young on 03-19-2001 08:41 PM
Last week I was looking at the images that JT had uploaded onto MSN and noticed a simple typo in the operations manual page showing a diagram of the Tipler sinusoid field produced by his device where in the diagram, item 10 (Negative Time Event Horizon) had been transposed as item 11 in the diagram, though the item value was printed correctly in the legend. I didn't think anything of it until I looked at the same page as found on Ricks site and saw that the typo was gone from the page. I'm not trying to play pixel person or anything, but unexplained edits to the images that have been posted do lead me to wonder what other changes are being made. (Then again, a time machine might just turn out to be a copywriters best friend!)
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-19-2001 09:55 PM
Really - its a lot more mundane than that (psychic ability). The profile is truly based on what Boomer has written and posted. Its statistics, analysis and interpretation.
Voice stress, handwriting analysis, non-verbal communication (body language) isn't part of this. Those criteria are generally used for truth testing. I don't have any interest in directly challenging Boomer's veracity. He and I are having fun with a battle of wits. Cat-and-mouse rhetoric as it were.
I'm getting ready for the next round...
What was the elapsed time (indicated on your machine's internal chronometer) for the trip back to 1975?
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-19-2001 10:47 PM
Good catch. We'll make you a questioned documents tech yet.
Look even closer. Upper left hand corner legend: you can still see the faint cut-and-paste edge outlined on the paper (not computer cut-and-paste, literal scissors and glue cut-and-paste) and a finger smudge where the ink ran onto the paper when the pasted section was smoothed. Same-same for the center title - which is also warped.
Take a close look at the technical drawing. Look especially at the left and right end perspectives. Not the same - very poor quality CAD for a billion dollar project.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-19-2001 11:03 PM
Hey Pamela, where's your buddy Johnny? Can't he come out and play?
Darby is calling for him too . You go Darby.
It’s not me this time John, so you’re going to have to try a whole new approach. With that said, I am sure we are to expect something new from you in about a day or so .
See you real soon ,
P.S. Sure, where should we all take our vacation? Me, you, and John “I wanna be a Time Traveler someday" Titor, wanna go off to?
Oh and John btw, I suggest you leave that piece of junk you made in your garage at home, cause I’ll break it if I see it . Have a nice day.
Olav Phillips is Conspiracy Researcher, specializing in the Secret Space Program, Exotic Aircraft, High Technology, Foreign Policy, Pre-History and Mysterious Civilizations. He is a regular contributor and publisher of Steamshovel Press and Mysterious Magazine. He has also written for Paranoia, FATE, Mysteries Magazine and served as Executive Producer and Principle Researcher for Ground Zero Radio with Clyde Lewis (Nationally Syndicated by Premiere Radio Networks). Olav has also appeared on many popular radio shows as well as television presentations including: America Unearthed, UFO Hunters, The Outer Edge, The Higher Side Chats, ConspiracyHQ TV, Shadows In the Dark Radio, Coast to Coast AM, Voyager (RAI Due), as well as being a long time contributor to Ground Zero Radio’s investigations including the famous Tracy, CA UFO Crash case featured on UFO Hunters. Olav has also contributed to many of the television presentations you’ve seen on Area 51, UFO’s and conspiracies. Olav is the owner of The Anomalies Channel, a online video channel with over 35,000 subscribers and hundreds of videos available to ROKU players all over the world as well as The Anomalies Network which is the primary source for his writings and research.
This thread has been saved from the TTI board. It no longer exists on that board because the administrator said
Over the years one of the most enigmatic stories we have come across is John Titor. Soldier, Time Traveler, or