Original John Titor Posts (Post2Post Art Bell Forum) – Part 3
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-19-2001 11:38 PM
actually I noticed this difference and several others you have not mentioned when I first saw the diagrams and questioned John about it here is his response below from an email:
"If you take another look at the pages you can see that the first one is much smaller too and there are two punch holes at the top of the second one.
Since I was getting complaints about the quality of the picture I decided to use the larger ones which are a compilation of the technical drawings in a packet attached to the unit. The cut-a-way is also a bit different from the unit I have as it shows the interior of the prototype.
I haven't looked closely at all the documents and I suppose there may be other differences too. In fact, there is another version of the same drawing in question which has a side profile on it and it's not in the manual either. I would imagine that may have been one of the updates.
#5 still says cone. I hadn't noticed the error in numbering before and I've seen others in the manual but that's pretty typical for a military document.
If you would, do me a favor and post this if someone else cathes that. Actually, this is quite intesting because I suppose if it were a fraud it would be expected to be perfect. That's fascinating and I hadn't thought about it before."
Javier, Where is John? probably P.A.C.K.I.N.G.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-20-2001 03:04 AM
I am not a time traveler.
Can I apply a truth table to all this discussion?
What if I said that I might be able to?
What would that prove?
Some of the people would believe it, some people would not believe it, some people would not care.
That's about it. That's all that is happening anytime people get together to discuss anything from the past or the future.
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-20-2001 03:25 AM
"P.S. Sure, where should we all take our vacation? Me, you, and John “I wanna be a Time Traveler someday" Titor, wanna go off to?"
How about the stoneage? Wanna take a ride???
Posted by Mel Reckling on 03-20-2001 06:35 AM
Oh! The misdirected rage of a 21 year old. Javier, put your efforts into something worthwhile and you'll go far in life. Don't let this time of your life be wasted smashing things.
Posted by James R.Quayle III on 03-20-2001 06:40 AM
I do not need to believe in John titor's claims too say,Javier your a good intelligent skeptic,But your also the type that will get left in the dust when something big does happen,You remind me of the neighbors who run inside here in Newport Beach when Ufo's fly over the beach,they run inside saying,NO ,NO I see it but it CAN"t be real!I have read all the replies on this **** time travel post from the beginning,and at the end ,I find you a bitter dude.In your universe view the world must be a boring place.Sure,Time Travel is not true,Javier,now go play while me and my friends go back in time and make sure your Mom and dad never met,ha,ha.Skepticism is good but ,your little barbs flown over and over on this post seems bitter,You probably have never experienced Any odd phenomena?That is how it seems,so sad for you,open your eyes and The Wierd will appear.Happy Trails John Titor,where ever you go,you made me and others think,not necesarily believe ,but what a gift of thought.Javier resign to your cubicle,horse blinded view ,how non-unique you are Javier.
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-20-2001 06:48 AM
just grab the shades and hop in the Chevy to "take a ride".
Pamela: Wouldn't you all look a tad out of place in the stone age? Seems that trip would definately blow ones cover, but who would care. Just a bunch of grunting hairy but naked human-like ancestors. I can see it, a Chevy pick up, probably black or dark blue in color appears in stone age florida...isnt it wet? NO matter, its a chevy. The only problem is there is room for 3 in that extra cab and a tight squeeze at that.
Javier: You would be sitting behind John. That would be an interesting development. If John is a TT, he is still human. How would you handle that morally? Take away his toy? j/k
The stone age would be a drag I think. Unknown diseases, yuk. Might as well be a cow and go to England. Ever thought of say....the 1920's. Florida would be there...and definately dry. Besides the '20's would be interesting. Period cash? Who cares. Does not seem that money is all that important in Time Travel.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-20-2001 06:58 AM
Tom: Last week I was looking at the images that JT had uploaded onto MSN and noticed a simple typo in the operations
manual page showing a diagram of the Tipler sinusoid field produced by his device where in the diagram, item 10
(Negative Time Event Horizon) had been transposed as item 11 in the diagram, though the item value was printed
correctly in the legend. I didn't think anything of it until I looked at the same page as found on Ricks site and saw that
the typo was gone from the page. I'm not trying to play pixel person or anything, but unexplained edits to the images
that have been posted do lead me to wonder what other changes are being made. (Then again, a time machine might
just turn out to be a copywriters best friend!)
Tom - For the record, those pictures were pulled from Doc's site about 3-4 weeks ago, about the time I got involved in this discussion. I've had copies of them since then, and have made no modifications. Are you telling me that you found a discrepancy between the ones I have and some OTHER pictures? If so, please give me the URLS where you located them.
(Edited & added) - I just read Pamela's comments on the photos, and sure it is plausible that he had multiple copies of various diagrams. She is also accurate in her statement about military documents being full of errors. I deal with technical orders and other such documents all the time, and they ALWAYS have misprints, typos, misspellings and mislabeled diagrams. Regardless of how much money is being spent on a government project, the documentation is only as good as the cheapest tech-writer they can hire. Remember - LOWEST BIDDER!
Rick[Edited by Rick Donaldson on 03-20-2001 at 07:14 AM]
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-20-2001 06:59 AM
I am not defending Javier, nor am I putting him down, but your last post needs a clarification...in fairness.
You wrote to Javier:
"You probably have never experienced Any odd phenomena?"
I cannot be specific, but he has claimed to experience odd phenomena. Some sort of Temporal condition. Impressions I think. Whatever the case, I did not figure him to be a dry non-experiencing figure. At times he has seemed a "tad" biggoted to time travellers. Perhaps he will expand that for clarification.
Not a slam James, I saw an error and am pointing it out. The pages Javier stated his beliefs and experiences were fairly early in the thread and included his web site link that does clearly state his mission.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-20-2001 07:09 AM
John - Pamela - whoever can get John to listen...
I have offered my serivces as an independant viewer/observer of the departure. I can and will make arrangements to fly to Florida with video taping equipment and some camera gear. However, I need a little lead time to get the equipment to me. Olav, the S4 Data base web master has offered basically unlimited space on the web site, as well as digitizing the video - making it free for folks to see.
I do not believe that making a video "for profit" is going to convince anyone that anything occurred. Worse, turning such a video over to anyone other than say, Art Bell himself, or independent (and skeptical) observers is just plain silly. Anyone with their hands in the "belief" portion of the video might not do as good a job as I might, since I am not really on the "believing" side.
Now... I've not had a reply from John at this point, but if his departure is imminent, I still require time to make arrangements for equipment, flight, car rental etc. This would be coming out of my pocket.
That also means I won't be helping anyone hoax anything.
Now... John... are you going to take me up on this offer or not? If I don't see it first hand - I doubt a video will make it any more real.
What do the rest of you say?
Rick[Edited by Rick Donaldson on 03-20-2001 at 07:18 AM]
Posted by David R Ferguson on 03-20-2001 07:49 AM
I have stated on more than one occasion that I would find it very interesting to have John's departure recorded, and I have asked John in this forum if he still planned on doing so. I do not believe I was ever directly responded to.
From the basis of comments made in this thread, I view Rick as an open-minded skeptic who would appear to have strong credibility. He has made an offer more than once to document this event at his own expense and I, for one, hope John takes him up on his offer.
What do you say, John? We are all awaiting your response.
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-20-2001 07:59 AM
That John, just a few days ago stated he was going to have the video done, but was not intending a 3rd party to be there. Indeed this raises the eyebrow, but even if it is a hoax, it is still interesting and I am curious what might happen in the video. I think there was talk of the field surrounding the mechanism, that it might disrupt or corrupt the video if taken too close in distance. I would love for Rick to be a third party assignee for video. He has credibility.
I know that is not what you desire John, but contact Rick. He has the means to handle this and is a skeptic. Besides, according to your description, this world line differs from yours. No harm would come to your family on your world line..that is IF Rick were corrupt, which I sincerely do not think is the case. Perhaps worth considering?
Posted by Alexander A.Shpilman on 03-20-2001 09:46 AM
The history John Titor, resemblances to me a April Fools' joke of the students.
1) The style of thinking is similar to style of thinking of the American of 1990. And plot of a film-hit:
When all people of the Earth catch illness a "cow rage". Or such as - what will be, if there will be overturning magnetic poles of the Earth?
2) The history of the people abounds "surprises". But we to them quickly get accustomed. In this history there are no surprises. There is nothing is paradoxical new.
3) How to distinguish micro Kerr black holes from electron, proton or neutron? The difference will be in mass?
It microsingularites. How it to make macrosingularites? I think, it is necessary better to know thin structure of a matter.
4) It is necessary to distinguish a "global line" from "worldline". There is an analogy: many people go on the rope bridge. The bridge is swing from a wind and movement of the people. The rope bridge is a "global line" matters (body of the man). "Worldline" is a trajectory of movement of the man in space on the rope bridge. Obviously, a "Global line" from "worldline" are connected among themselves, but they differ.
If I would be TTer, I would study properties of a "global line". I would study, how the change of events in the past (events at my doubles in the past), my opportunity influences to change events in the present time.
Certainly, it is difficult. But it is possible to begin from study of a situation of planets and stars, earthquakes and hurricanes, in various temporary flows. Then to study the moments of occurrence of scientific opening and moments of creation of masterpieces of art, and their difference in various temporary flows.
In detail about time and OVERTAME look in http://www.pmicro.kz/MISC/UFL/Almanach/2n00/OVERTIMEa.htm
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-20-2001 09:53 AM
I have a few more pictures apparently from John now, that we will post on the anomalies site as soon as I can get in touch with my webby guy out there in CA.
I have examined them (the pics of the machine itself) and have not changed my opinion on the machine - it "looks" real enough from a military/government perspective. Even the manuals appear to be what they are perported to be.
One thing to note, which I can not remember if I mentioned before - and I am sure no one else has at this point, is a yellow object in the upper part of the picture of the machine in the vehicle. The yellow device is a geiger counter. I'm familiar with THAT machine specifically - not just gieger counters, but THAT model. I've used it. I carried two of them in tactical weather gear in the 1970's and 80's. I also used one of those devices extensively during my stay at the White House from 1989-1992 during training at a facility outside of DC, where we trained for NBC (nuclear/biological/chemical) warfare. More specifically I used them during training for "shelter management" where we each played President and others.
Anyway, that is a real device. If you look carefully, you will see an older "CD" or Civil Defense sticker on the side. The device is rather old though - probably built in the mid to late 70s and was an important piece of gear in my weather systems and shelters I took care of in those days. It could have come from old stocks of military gear (in 2013 or later) or it could have come from surplus store in 1999 or 2000. Not sure.
I did want to point out what it was though.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-20-2001 09:59 AM
Yes, I think Rick ought to film this, but John has already said that this may not do any good.
From the book "Galaxies" by Tim Ferris, yes I know its getting old, but then, why is anyone who deals with the structure of cosmology still are leaning this way:
One of a number of sophisticated cosmological models that have been constructed within the broad purview of the big-bing account of cosmic history, this theory, proposed by J. Richard Gott III of Princeton University, postulates the existence of not one universe but three. It envisions that the big bang gave rise not only to our universe, where matter predominates over antimatter and time runs forward, but a second universe where antimatter predominates and time moves backward, as well as a tachyon universe where everthing moves faster than the velocity of light. Our universe and the antimatter universe are segregated in terms of time. Both are segregated from the tachyon universe in terms of space, since the tachyons in the first instant of creation fled beyond the light cones of all observers in both the matter and antimatter universes.
The Gott cosmology is a masterpiece of symmetry without being dictatorial about it: it predicts, for instance, that there should be traces of contamination of our universe by antimatter (as has been verified by observation) and by tachyons (as has not). Whatever likelihood we might care to assign to its validity, in this combination of symmetry and imperfection the Gott model is redolent of nature's style.
Now are you sure that you can not communicate with another you in the antimatter universe?
Now what if this is proved. It may prove that God (she) has put you all over the place, and in many different places for one reason, you may have the means to destroy yourself with science of the future.
She(God) has wiped your butt all over the place already, now who won besides (God)?
We all win, maybe, this way.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-20-2001 10:11 AM
God may be angry as John proposes, but still, I think it is just humans that are doing the dirty deed, and humans are the ones that are angry. This has nothing to do with God, so if this happens, blame the humans, not God.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-20-2001 10:19 AM
This theory leaves at least two Johns running around, and maybe a lot of johns running around.(Alright, it a joke, johns. You are all the other johns running around.)
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-20-2001 10:20 AM
Good observation on the device. I've been looking through surplus gear sites on the web to find a similar device for sale.
The two yellow caution tapes on the device are misaligned. Sloppy workmanship.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-20-2001 12:02 PM
Albert: Yes, I think Rick ought to film this, but John has already said that this may not do any good.
I am not sure I understood your piece there Albert. Are you saying that because someone else films/video tapes the departure, we might not see it on tape?
I'm not sure what that has to do with antimatter. If John were an anti-matter John, he could not have come here in the first place. One doesn't have to meet ones-self to destroy oneself when made of antimatter. One mere must contact ANY matter. Matter and antimatter will obliterate one another no matter what form it is in when it contacts.
Darby: The two yellow caution tapes on the device are misaligned. Sloppy workmanship.
Which is pretty much normal for government equipment. Doesn't prove anything though. I have equipment that is government gear that has similar lables. None of them are aligned.
As far as a "good call" well, I'm not sure about that, I was just stating what I know to be facts from personal experience. I know, for instance that the yellow geiger counters were standard gear for fallout shelters for military personnel in certain places. I also know that almost NO ONE knew anything about them, how to operate, read or change the batteries in them. I don't even remember the type of batteries they took but if I remember right, they were C cells (but they might have been 6v lantern batteries too - I simply can not recall that part). I will never forget using them though. The government cost back then was around 900-1200 bucks. Something similar today will run you 750 or 800 commercially, but they aren't as sturdy as the good old yellow ones were.
I've been doing some careful examination of the pictures. They simply aren't high enough quality to be able to get details though. <shrugs>
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-20-2001 02:05 PM
I am just saying that John is the one that said that it may prove nothing further, that the pictures will not help anyone believe him to be a TT or not, if they do not already believe.
I would like to see the pictures, though.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-20-2001 02:30 PM
I see your point. But... it will prove it to ME. That's what *I* care about. Call me selfish if you like, but I could care less if anyone else believes or not. I don't care if you do, or Javier believes or disbelieves.
I am trying to show 1) Either fraud or 2) John is a time traveler.
If someone goes and actually is present as a witness besides his own family or personal friends, it won't matter then because they can not fake the photography, nor pull "magic tricks" - smoke and mirrors, whatever you want to call it.
I consider myself qualified as an observer for several reasons.
First and foremost, I'm extremely interested in the outcome of this exercise.
Secondly, I'm a skeptic. For a skeptic to see something with their own eyes, is PROOF POSITIVE to a skeptic. Whether or not YOU believe the skeptic is up to you. If you went I might believe you. If Javier goes, I would definately believe him. Personally, I do not trust Javier to go without doing something to disrupt things. He has made it very clear he has a problem - moral or otherwise, with time travelers.
Thirdly, I'm a "trained observer". My jobs over the years, from engineer, to teacher, to computer 'guru' to storm chaser more than qualifies me to do the job of objectively observing an experiment and giving a truthful and objective report on the subject, no matter what the subject entails.
Fourthly, I've heard no one else offer their services, their own hard earned cash or their time to do this. I have. I certainly haven't seen Art Bell come in the forum and post his thoughts. If he had, and offered to be there, and perhaps do a live report, that would have been the best thing. I don't think he will - for several reasons. But most importantly, it could be dangerous!
Fifthly - Danger... been there, done that. I'm afraid of heights and don't climb if I dont have to. I do have antenna towers in the back and climb them. I have to. I hate and am afraid of flying. I've been to 42 countries. I didn't get there on a slow boat. I've been shot at many times in Central America, and also in the middle east. Nancy Reagan and Richard Nixon have chewed my ass. I'm not afraid of anything else (except spiders). I do not have to fly (cept to get there), I don't have to climb (cept perhaps to get a good video shot), I don't have to deal with spiders, Nancy Reagan or Richard Nixon. I DO have to get truthful video, good pictures and even perhaps an interview if John would consent to doing so. This I CAN DO.
Sixthly - I consider myself a decent writer. You will get a very good report.
Now... Whether you chose to believe the data that I will bring you, is up to you - and each person will have to decide. Without knowing me personally, none of you can be sure I'm not a government agent, I'm not a Russian Spy or I'm not in cahoots with John.
Since I'm not any of these things, and I don't have much else I can show you right now to prove this, you'll have to take my word. For now.
However, anyone that wants to know more about me is welcome to read up on my writing, my bio and a lot of other stuff on my web site. You can - as several people have pointed out, get a good idea of a person's background from their writing. It might take you some time, but, the data is there. I'm not extremely private, and anyone that wants to find me, can. My "secrets" are things that I've done for the government and no one will get that information from me under ANY circumstances, but the rest of my life is pretty much an open book.
Now... do you want to trust your intutition completely, your eyes and ears, me, John or this forum? You decide.
Rick[Edited by Rick Donaldson on 03-20-2001 at 02:34 PM]
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-20-2001 04:21 PM
Thankyou for the "jet" link. I read all of it.
yes, that was very interesting.
wasn't sure if I could use your email address to respond back to you.
but I wanted to let you know I did read it all.
and I will keep what you said in mind.Thankyou for being concerned.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-20-2001 08:22 PM
The Stoneage you said huh? Nah, I was thinking more along the lines of Medieval Times. I always liked playing with Swords and fighting when I was a kid.
My big brother would be the Ninja (a real ninja) and beat me up all the time. Ahh the good ole' days .
P.S. Mel and James. Excuse me for having a little fun here for a change. When do I ever? And when I do, I get hassled about it.
You don't know me, you don't know what I am capable of. I have abilities and control that alot of people my age lack. Maybe once you learn to not accept life for it's flaws, and stand up for what's right, you'll make something of your self.
And see that I was right all along .[Edited by Javier Cortez on 03-20-2001 at 08:35 PM]
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-20-2001 10:53 PM
Here's what I think of John at this point.
It really does not matter if he is a TT or not, well, it might.
John thought about some things going on and with technology and he decided that he had something to say about the future as he saw it. He came up with a story to get people interested with what he was thinking. That was: time travel may be possible in the future, if it is, and other countries found out, this may not be good. He presented it as a story to strongly interest people about what they thought about the future, if time travel becomes a reality.
He may have a three year old and wonder what kind of world he will grow up in.
I must admit that I was not really thinking in those terms, so to me it was a wake up call. You get going with school, life, and hear news but it nevers just clicks with you.
The What If?
I tend to look at the world through rose colored glasses sometimes, and that becomes too relaxed.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-20-2001 11:38 PM
Here's something I found out this year. During the Cold War or maybe about in the '70's, the Russians were working on a new type of jet engine. This engine that uses, if I remember right because its not at the newscientist website anymore, ionized gases to control the engine. This means that it needs no wings, no airelons, or controls. Just by changing the ionized gas flowing around the engine, this engine is unique. Now NASA been informed of it, and is working with it, and Russia can build a plane, not mach speed, but for transport that uses this type of engine. It called something like "Plasma" engine. If you like to consider the fact that this engine may be a prototype UFO, I guess it may also be something of a forerunner that could eventually be used to some effect as a UFO moves. Consider that. Russians are not dumb. At the BBC Talking Point, they had the question, just a few weeks ago "Is Russia a Superpower?" Now responses came from around the world, including Russians. One said that they have some bright theoretical physics students, and they have pride in their country. The answer to me is simple: Do they have nuclear weapons? Yes. They are still a Superpower.
Posted by Mel Reckling on 03-21-2001 08:03 AM
The problem with being 21 is that noone ever takes you seriously. We all know that. You should be enjoying yourself right now. You are far too serious, intense and vindictive. You have been raggin' on this guy through this whole thread. I certainly don't know if John is for real. The one thing I do know is that this has been a great topic and that you need to lighten up and stop trying to save us all with your "Time Cop" role.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-21-2001 11:45 AM
Here's another thing, well, maybe not that important.
Harpoon IV is coming out about the end of this year or so.
The Navy people play this game. I have Harpoon II and you can download it free, I think still, at website Home of the Underdogs, I think but not sure, its underdogs.com. Well, written by Larry Bond, a Naval Officer of many years, it is about Naval Warfare. The database is well worth looking at, to view for the most part, the Navies of different nations, and type of weapons. Its the closes to having about the best unclassified weapons of war of the modern age. The new one being programmed by someone else will be more of a 3-D type Harpoon. Russians weapons are usually twice the size of US weapons and if you get hit by one, that's about it. The US weapons usually take 2 or 3 to sink one of their submarines or ships. In any case, Russians have more subs than anything else right now, besides land warfare. The new Harpoon IV will have landings of Marines on shore. I learned a great deal about weapon systems on this planet from that computer game.
Just a thought.
That Russian engine is still a kind of jet engine. The only way it might fly, (and I am just imagining), around is put it so it swivels. Just dreaming at this point. Still more like a regular airplane. Ionized gases instead of whatever jet engines use, (air?).
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-21-2001 12:25 PM
I'll get off.
Here's a for instance:
Russian weapons -- == 200 mile blast area. Russia never built a "small" weapon in their life. The US does.
2000 miles by 3000 miles --- size of the US about.
It would take 150 Russian missiles and there would be no US.
And they do not have to be accurate.
So Russia would have to change their entire philosophy.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-21-2001 01:24 PM
Albert:I'll get off.
Here's a for instance:
Russian weapons -- == 200 mile blast area. Russia never built a "small" weapon in their life. The US does.
2000 miles by 3000 miles --- size of the US about.
It would take 150 Russian missiles and there would be no US.
And they do not have to be accurate.
So Russia would have to change their entire philosophy.
Albert... what are you talking about? A "small weapon"? A "large weapon"? There is no such thing as a "200 mile blast range". The fireball from the largest ever known thermonuclear weapon was less than 5 miles in diameter. The Russians are purported to have built a 350 megaton bomb at one point, of course, we do not know this for sure and it is rumor.
Your numbers are way out of scale. I suggest you spend some time doing some research on the subject before you quote numbers. I'll tell you where to start...
This should get you started. You will not find anywhere in any of the data where there are 200 mile radii damage zones. Even with the worst thing the Russians can throw at the United States there might be a 7-10 mile damage radius around the blast zone.
In my reserch, 20 Megatons seems to be the absolute maximum any one weapon will do. Yeah, they are bad, they are radioactive and they are gonna do some serious, serious damage to the land and perhaps even the planet. However, 200 bombs will not "obliterate" the United States.
However - as I JUST finished writing last night in an article, if you're planning on giving up now, before such a war or survival situation comes up, please - feel free to ship me your food, and weapons. I CERTAINLY will put them to good use.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-21-2001 01:32 PM
Pictures of the time machine and the manual for those who have NOT yet seen them, are located at:
Exact URLs are as follows:
I understand there are some more, that I've missed and they are supposed to be sent to me shortly.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-21-2001 08:00 PM
Poor misguided Mel. You speak as if you almost knew better. Yet still you know nothing about my life, and insist that I am what you claim to be. Well I hate bragging about my self, but I see that it’s necessary. Or else you’ll continue to know nothing about me, and continue ****ing me off. So here I go…
Are you a 2nd Degree black belt in Karate? (Everyone in my family knows how to defend themselves, tradition since I am a quarter Chinese, my blood demands it). Were you a League Champ in High School Wrestling? How about going through Army Basic Training? I know tough, if anything I am far from weak and like an average 21 year old.
I am incredibly disciplined. I don’t wait another day to speak my mind and take action on things that are wrong.
Growing up in So.Cal I’ve seen death, I’ve seen terror, and I’ve seen people taken advantage of. Maybe it’s different where you were brought up, but these kinds of things I I want to do something about them. So pardon, for taking a stand and wanting to do something about the wrong things in life. You don’t see many young people doing that, and I believe it should be encouraged, not condemned.
Thank you very much;
those were my 2 cents,
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-21-2001 11:04 PM
If you have contact with Boomer please attempt to verify the elapsed time (on his internal chronometer) for his trip from 2036 to 1975. I need that data for a calculation.
Two problems still unresolved:
Early on Boomer posted that the radius of effect of the time distortion field is 12 to 15 feet (Schwarzschild Radius of 4 to 5 meters). He also said that the mass of the singularities is that of a "small mountain". I suggested 3*10^18/kg (1/2,000,000th the mass of the Earth)and he did not dispute it (though it may be smaller)...
anyone see where I'm going with this?
There's another problem with his diagrams on your site:
Page #5 (C204 Tipler Sinusoid...) Item #1 shows the twin singularities in line with the x-ray venting zone.
The schematic following the photos also shows the singularities in line - and in line with the driver's seat. It seems that the x-rays are vented directly at the driver.
I'll post the answer to problem #1 later. Just giving everyone else a chance to do the math.
Hint: R=2GM/c^2 (I posted this formula with little comment for Boomer last week. He didn't pick up on its significance.)[Edited by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-21-2001 at 11:16 PM]
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-22-2001 12:06 AM
I do hope that you get a chance to see Boomer off. But a video won't help prove the veracity of Boomer's story. If what he says is true you'll only have a video fogged by x-ray emmissions (and maybe some leukemia for yourself). If its unfogged then everything given to you to post on your site about the device is false and misleading.
The last time I checked the physics I didn't see an "on-off" switch for a black hole or any other singularity. Whether his machine is on or off the singularities continue to generate an event horizon. The singularities are contained in the black box. I have a very good idea of what the Schwarzchild Radius of the alleged micro-singularities should be. The black box lies within the event horizon. How does one photograph an object inside the event horizon from the exterior of the event horizon (in this case the driver's window of a Chevy pick-up)?
If there is an x-ray problem associated with his machine how is it that his photos aren't fogged? And, though he's never said that he hasn't let anyone else come close to the machine, who took the picture of his two hands in one of the photos?
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-22-2001 12:47 AM
In my opinion, I don’t believe John, A.k.a “Boomer” expected people to not believe him this close to his leave date of April 10th (his window of opportunity). I’m sure he wanted everyone to believe his story. But in-light to what Darby has shown us, and John’s unwillingness to rebuttal. We must now see that he has forfeited his opportunity to prove us wrong (your silence only incriminates you and confirms that you are a fraud). Cause he him self is wrong. Somehow, I think Darby was an unexpected variable. I’m glad you were apart of this discussion; I take my hat off to you Darby , great job.
Just something to think about… I know that some of John’s loyal subjects will continue to think he was for real. But I have never, nor have I ever wished that he were a real Time Traveler. The rest of you, shame-shame. Always answering questions for him, defending him, giving him a way out, never really letting him do it all on his own. Always sounded like Heaven’s Gate to me.
Until then, I think John has sung his last song. Either that, or he’s cramming as much math, physics and logic to assist him in answering the last questions. Last chance to make people believers aye John?
I expect a good answer John, if you do decide to answer . If not, that was pretty rude of you to leave without saying good-bye. Or what kind of idiots do you take us for making an excuse like that .
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-22-2001 01:29 AM
What surprises me about the believers is that they apparently never really looked closely at what Boomer was telling them. Now, I don’t think he’s a bad guy – I’ve enjoyed the time (there’s that word again) we’ve spent together bantering this subject – but…
Here’s who Boomer says he is (from the totality of his posts but more specifically his early posts):
A civil war begins in the U.S. when he’s six years old (2004). By 2012, at age 14, he’s a member of a Florida vanguard revolutionary brigade fighting the “enemy state”. He and his military assist the former Soviet Union (Russia) with their invasion of the United States. He said, “The enemy attacked by Russia was the forces of the government you are under now.” He said that the conflict “will consume everyone in the U.S. by 2012”. This will be followed by a short WWIII in 2015.
Surely some of the gentle readers have children. Lola has two teenagers. Who else has children, spouses, loved ones who will be of military service age between 2004 and 2012? Boomer admits to making war on the United States and giving aid and comfort to the invading enemy forces. Sounds like treason from our perspective. Sounds like murder if its your children that he kills in the conflict. As Rick Donaldson would say, we are the government – we the people. Boomer says that we are the enemy.
So – for the supporters: do you really hope that he’s what he says that he is? Is this what you want for your children?
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-22-2001 01:33 AM
Rick, I check it out later.
To me, after seeing movies of H-bombs, early pictures, I was under the impression that a shock-wave is what goes that far or so. Pictures I seen of old '50's type mushroom clouds had trees down and everything flated by the shockwave of the blast. That's what I'm going by.
I look it up later, I have to catch up on things I have to get done.
I been just thinking, like Emmett perhaps, doesn't anyone see anything wrong with building, how can I put it?
I think John said essentially, although I may have to review:
An electron fed, spin controlled, (for the ergospheres), rotating microsingularity.
At one point, because I was reading some posts of John, he said that controlling the spin of (what I thought)the microsingularity was what kept the ergospheres in line. Controlling both 'spins' of the microsingularities.
How would you ever control the spin of a subatomic particle?
All we do is blast them in the accelerators to photograph the tracks made, because you can not even see the particles, only the tracks that were left by the particles.
I have seen pictures, and if it were not for the track's photograph, there would be no picture of the particle. The particle had already decayed, or something, that only left the tracks to be photographed. That's all anyone can get from blasting particles near the speed of light. They were black and white photographs that only showed the tracks of the particle. Someday, I have to look up those photographs, maybe they have them at a particle accelerator website.
No, I was not on the Internet then, this was way back when I was in my local astronomy club. Over 11 years ago. I remember those photos. I think it was Wayne the founder of the club who brought us those photographs. Just a sorta long white-looking track where the particle had gone after smashing. Yes, if you saw them, ...... spiraling off after impact.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-22-2001 01:45 AM
Here's John's post (part of it, don't ask me what page):
The singularities do not create Tipler cylinders they create the same physical environment without all the mass. The same math works for both. There are two singularities. Their mass and spin is altered in order to adjust the size of the ergosphere and cause the event horizons to interact and create the gravity sinusoid. I have a basic home schooling education (k-12) and a bachelor’s degree in history.
I would like to know when humans can control the mass and spin of a singularity?
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-22-2001 07:30 AM
Javier - You kill me. Haha. Basic training? You're 21 years old and have been through basic? But you're not in the military? What happened there? Typically, there is a minimum of three years of service required after basic training. Get kicked out for your attitude? <chuckles>
Darby: Problem #1
Early on Boomer posted that the radius of effect of the time distortion field is 12 to 15 feet (Schwarzschild Radius of 4
to 5 meters). He also said that the mass of the singularities is that of a "small mountain". I suggested 3*10^18/kg
(1/2,000,000th the mass of the Earth)and he did not dispute it (though it may be smaller)...
anyone see where I'm going with this?
I see where you're going - weight of the machine among other things. Also - I do not believe that this is the schwarzschild radius that he is talking about. That radius is the "blue event horizon" - and... I hate to say this, but nothing within that radius would be seen again. So... this is more like the theory behind tipler cylinders (read up on that, I'm not gonna explain it here). Basically though, you do NOT enter into the radius when traveling along a tipler cylinder.
There's another problem with his diagrams on your site:
Page #5 (C204 Tipler Sinusoid...) Item #1 shows the twin singularities in line with the x-ray venting zone.
The schematic following the photos also shows the singularities in line - and in line with the driver's seat. It seems that
the x-rays are vented directly at the driver.
Where's the problem? Hehehe. But, you have to note, that the diagram is NOT TO SCALE. Also, remember that no matter what government document you're talking about, if it is a manual, it is GOING TO CONTAIN INACCURACIES. The government uses "lowest bid" - remember?
About the "fogging of the film"... well, yes true, if it is film. Video tape is magnetic. X-rays will not affect magnetic tape in this manner - that is by fogging the video. There might be some "magenetic domains" knocked out of place by x-radiation, however, the result would be these little sparkles you see on the TV when you do not have a very good (strong) signal coming in. We call it "snow". I'm sure folks have seen this before.
I haven't really done any calculations on the distance of the event horizon from the actual "surface" of a black hole - but, I know what I've read states that the event horizon is actually very close to the "surface" (if indeed it could be called a surface). Point being, we're talking about a 'microsingularity'. I have my doubts as to whether it can exist inthe first place, but a physcist friend tells me that it is possible for such a thing and indeed, there have been discussions of doing JUST that with a linear accelerator. The problem was that they just weren't sure if it would decay quickly or become something that might envelop the earth. There was no discussion of the "weight" of such a thing, because it is man made, and would not be a true singularity.
I won't dispute any calculations you have made regarding the Schwarzchild Radius of the microsingularity, but I will say, I believe it to be on the order of microns rather than inches or feet. Remember, we're talking about something the size of an electron.
By the way, *I* can tell electrons which way to spin and I'm not a "full fledged physcist". So I suppose it wouldn't be that big of a stretch to force a black hole to spin this way or that.
Albert: I probably misunderstood your post. Yes, the blast radius is pretty big, but it isn't 200 miles in any case. Remember a blast wave is basically a supersonic sound wave and it will dissapate over distance. That dissapation is based on several factors, like density of the air, temperature, how close to the ground, etc etc. I'm sure I left something out. In any case, a blast wave will be very strong very close to ground zero (the point of the ground above which the bomb is detonated). As the wave travels outward, and the distance increases, the overpressure drops quickly. I believe it is an inverse of the distance traveled. That basically means - as an example (and I'm not sure this is completely accurate, but those links I gave will tell you for sure) as the distance doubles the overpressure will be reduced by a factor of four. (It's too early for me to do math, and I was called into work last night, so I'm doubly tired now).
Damage from a nuclear bomb would be devastating, but only in the target area. That means... perhaps at distances of up to 10 miles away there would be damage, increasingly worse as you get closer and closer to ground Zero. But - as you get further and further away the damage is reduced. Basically.. I have a ranch style house - I'm seven miles from Cheynne mountain. If they hit it with a 20 megaton bomb, my house goes bye bye. My basement, however, will remain intact. It is below ground level and unless the fire ball touches the region below ground, then below ground is safe, that's been my point all along. Hence, survivablity of nuclear attacks.
Your black and white photos of tracks of particle trails was accomplished actually, very easily. I've performed those precise experiments without the aid of an accelerator myself. The tracks actually are drawn in a cloud of vapor - usually CO2 vapor. In fact when I did it, I used radium from a old wrist watch, and dry ice for the vapor. The trails were CLEARLY visible with the naked eye. When examined under a magnifying glass (I used a microscope) I could seen the decay as a long trail that fell into a "death spiral" as I called it. When the particles decayed completely, the spiral ended. Of course this occured VERY fast, and essentially, I saw only the result of the decay, which was the track in the fog.
I did these experiments when I was 15 years old or so, in my basement lab. I had a fully stocked chemistry/physics lab when I was a kid. That stopped the day I ****ed near killed everyone in the house with clorine gas... duh... Anyway, I decided that chemistry wasn't my bag, and went instead into electronics and physics after that.
Posted by Mel Reckling on 03-22-2001 08:30 AM
It is obvious that you think too much of yourself. Am I supposed to be scared? What I am saying is that you are wasting too much of your young life getting worked up over a post like this. You will be old soon enough and you'll wish you did things differently.
You have mentioned that you are very mature for your age. Who are you trying to convince, yourself? The overreactions are not a sign of maturity. You also seem to have a propensity to want to smash things like this time machine. Is that a sign of maturity?
The answer to all those pointless things you mentioned is, no. Please channel your energy into things that will further your career. Someday you'll thank me for this.[Edited by Mel Reckling on 03-22-2001 at 08:33 AM]
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-22-2001 09:35 AM
I need to post something here... I have nothing to do with any possible military involvement in this forum. I want folks to understand that I am simply interested in this for the sake of science fiction, science fact and a very strong curiosity about time travel.
John can not be reached right now. And certain other individuals appear to have been contacted. I can't say more, but... if anyone is contacted by "military personnel" make sure you get names, ranks and any other information you can from them. Give it to me. I DO have the means to verify their existence. Now... I just put MY ass on the line here, so if someone DOES contact you.. I wanna know right away, but if you don't have a name, rank, base of operations, serial number or anything else, then they are probably not real.
Listen... if someone contacts you in email and says they are "investigating this or that" and claim to be military - ask them:
1) What branch of service?
2) What organization are you in?
3) What is your military rank and pay grade?
4) Are you a law enforcement officer?
5) Why are you contacting ME?
If you get these silly-assed answers about "National Security" or whatever - then ask them:
"What is YOUR need to know?" and end the conversation. You have Constitutional rights, even where National Security is involved. So, remember that. And unless and until they contact you IN PERSON and SHOW A BADGE, ID CARD or other authorizing documentation (like, let's say a WARRANT) then they can't even be bothering you if you do not invite them to do so.
Posted by Lola Montez on 03-22-2001 11:07 AM
This stuff is for fun, remember? Traitors? Good Grief!(good grief is probably a good example of those linguistic time frame give aways)
Lola[Edited by Lola Montez on 03-22-2001 at 11:18 AM]
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-22-2001 11:26 AM
Some things are worth fighting for. And as you can see, others are following in. You took my wanting to smash his machine to serious. After all, it was in a joke you probably took as serious as well. And worked your self up to frenzy about it, and into a debate against me, about something you found immature in a joke . Now who’s overreacting…?
I don’t think that highly of my self, how you think I probably do. I merely mentioned that (for the first time here) of what I know and can do and feel in my heart, to show you that I am mature. Not that you care, not that I care, it’s just that you were ****ing me off making unfair assumptions, while not even knowing me. And still are.
I have nothing to prove to anyone, I can careless. Just don’t attack my character, because that’s personal.
Btw way, how old are you? Are you speaking about maybe your life? Why do you have many regrets? I find it that sometimes people your age speak from experience… Well let me tell you something, not all 21 year olds end up with a screwed up life. I am just happened to want to do something about the world’s condition. But I guess those ideals died in you along time ago, and now accept the life you have everyday for what it is. Man, that’s sad. Maybe instead of condemning us young “whimper snappers,” you should listen to us. Our will to fight is strong (some of us) might wake you up and feel the need to do something.
P.S. Yeah Rick, shortly after BCT, I got medically discharged. It’s a personal matter though, and I don’t wish to talk about it thanks.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-22-2001 11:29 AM
Oh come on Lola, it's it for fun, then tell me how many times have I been attacked by you, and told that I am hostile?
Posted by Lee Heggy on 03-22-2001 11:47 AM
Mel, I've been following this thread and it's comicbook format for some time now. I don't think it matters if this Titor guy is from the future or from Jersey. It was fun listening to his rap. The other guy Xavier?....well.
"Poor misguided Mel. You speak as if you almost knew better. Yet still you know nothing about my life, and insist that I am what you claim to be. Well I hate bragging about my self, but I see that it’s necessary. Or else you’ll continue to know nothing about me, and continue ****ing me off. So here I go…"
Ok, that was a classic 'Ming the Merciless' opener. Guess we'll have to set our blasters on stun. Here comes the pedigree.
"Are you a 2nd Degree black belt in Karate?"
No and if I was I would know that it is considered very poor behavior to tout one's supposed skill in martial arts.
"(Everyone in my family knows how to defend themselves, tradition since I am a quarter Chinese, my blood demands it)."
The parenthesis is to inform us of qualifying information...as if he were saying it under his breath while delivering the Vulcan Death Grip.
"Were you a League Champ in High School Wrestling?"
This is to let you know that in the tradition of the WWF..."Talk's cheap Bozo! Let's get it on!"...and we wonder why kids in southern California are shooting...
"How about going through Army Basic Training?"
No thanks, already went through Marine training myself back when it WAS hard and the little pieces of army guys get caught between my teeth.
"I know tough, if anything I am far from weak and like an average 21 year old."
The average 21 year old is a limp sack of s**t who worships at a mall and is more concerned with the tenderness of his feelings than the toughness of his resolve.
"I am incredibly disciplined."
This guy should get together with Helen Reddy and roar.
"I don’t wait another day to speak my mind and take action on things that are wrong."
Sounds like he's running for office here.
"Growing up in So.Cal I’ve seen death, I’ve seen terror, and I’ve seen people taken advantage of."
James Taylor couldn't say it any better...gimme' my guitar and lemme' put on that workshirt and wide belt....
"Maybe it’s different where you were brought up, but these kinds of things I I want to do something about them."
Using two 'I's like that gives me a suspicion that this may be a Rastafarian masquerading as a Pastafarian..
"So pardon, for taking a stand and wanting to do something about the wrong things in life."
Well, at least he apologizes but I wish he would bring back that stand. Two wrongs don't make a right.
"You don’t see many young people doing that, and I believe it should be encouraged, not condemned."
Bring up super of American flag come in for close up as tear rolls down cheek raise music and fade to credits.....
"Thank you very much; those were my 2 cents,"
Final shot thanking the armed forces for their help and cooperation and the people of China for their one quarter donation of genetic material....go to black. End.[Edited by Lee Heggy on 03-22-2001 at 11:50 AM]
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-22-2001 12:14 PM
Hi, I commend your passion for what you yourself believe. I wish to point out that every other person in the world also has their own beliefs. It is when a person appears to, or even tries to foist their own beliefs on others that the problems arise. Not everyone here believes that TT is an immoral or evil technology. You know this, but my point is that you appear to be going about distributing your beleif in a counter-productive way.
Your current method of discussion seems clouded by your passionate dislike for the technology and frankly, it is hard to take you serious because of that. At your web site you describe your beliefs. It was an interesting read, but it is also not in the same form of presentation as you are giving here. I would actually like to know more about your view, but you seem to view people who are older than you in a distrustful if not aggravated way. Although I believe differently than you about the application of TT technology, I would sincerely be interested in understanding your belief when presented in a less inflamed fashion.
For the sake of discussion, suppose John really is a TT. What are you specifically trying to accomplish in this dialogue? If you feel others are wrong, ok, but say why others are wrong without attacking. I mean, if you want someone to understand your viewpoint, calling them sheep is a bad way to start.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-22-2001 12:16 PM
I do not think that Russia attacks the US with people, just missiles.
Anyway, I have no information about much of this topic.
It would not do anybody any good to ask me any question.
I just tried to bring up points for discussion and maybe some 'bad' jokes.
Rick, look at it this way,:
If you have enough advance warning like John said,
how long would it take you to drive to Omaha (maybe an airplane)(about 611 miles)?
You can ball me out in person, if this story is true.
Bring some water, and a distillation unit for it, and how fast can you really drive, if enough advanced warning.
You can tell me all day, 'See, I told you so!' or something.
In fact, it true, how long would it take anyone to get to Omaha, I drove straight through to Florida, 1200 miles, only took 24 hours, on a lazy driving trip.
We can all sit down and have a cup of coffee of something.
Or I'll be on my way surely, if all this is happening.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-22-2001 12:20 PM
I think Lee tapped the nail on the head... once, then drove it home. LOL.
Sorry, but that was funny as all get-out. But, I don't think it is necessary for any of us to be attacking anyone. Once the forum degenerates for those who are (perhaps) trying to cause it to degenerate, no longer will communication work.
In other words, as much fun as Javier, Lee, myself and others are having with the barbs and insults... they are very counter-productive.
I personally apologize to Javier for my comment about his military discharge. That wasn't any of my business and I really shouldn't have taken it to that level. I'm sorry Javier. Your discharge is not the subject of discussion here (even though you DID throw it out to be picked on like you did, I shouldn't have picked on it).
Now - I'm not saying that we shouldn't debate. In fact, I think a good argument is very good, however, we should stick as closely to the facts as we see them, and try to explain to each other WHY we take the tack we take on talking the way we are. I've tried in past posts to do so.
Now - another subject. My post a few back that is entitled "Military Involvment"... please do not read anything into that. I've received several quite interesting messages today trying to dechiper what I said.
PLEASE - There is NOTHING to dechiper. What I intended was a sort of "panic reduction" message. Sometimes in these forums (and this is not the first, nor will it be the last) people get the feeling they are being stalked by the government, or some Men in Black or something. I can't say that doesn't happen, but I can tell you from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that if someone suspects you of some national security violation, they are NOT going to contact you via email.
They ARE going to find out what you're about, and might even contact you in person, but they will be legitimate law enforcement officers, not men in black, not guys in green or any other Three-Letter-Agency EXCEPT the FBI.
See the FBI is the US Law Enforcement agency that has jurisdiction over national security matters within the United States and its territories. NSA ain't coming out, CIA won't bother with you, and if there are Men in Black, I bet you dimes to Martian quarters they aren't Americans (or Earthlings). http://www.artbell.com/img/marsmoney.jpg
So chances are, if some dufus from the Pentagon is contacting you via email, he is definately a dufus, isn't authorized, and certainly isn't from the Pentagon (or any other such place, Area 51, UFO Island or anywhere else). If the guy comes to your door with a badge book and says "FBI"... ask him if he has a warrant and then send him on his way if he doesn't.
Otherwise... don't get too wrapped up in being paranoid.
That's MY job.
Rick[Edited by Rick Donaldson on 03-22-2001 at 01:38 PM]
Posted by David R Ferguson on 03-22-2001 12:27 PM
Just when things started getting REALLY interesting....
Posted by Lee Heggy on 03-22-2001 12:28 PM
I'm really, really sorry if my little cut-up has hurt ANYONE'S feelings or bruised the ever so delicate sensitivities of others who post here. I'm especially sorry if I've hacked off the Chinese. I just thought Mel was getting short shrift and...well...dang it all..Mel, dude...I LOVE YOU MAN! There, I'm glad I got that off my chest. Now I'm gonna look at those fuzzy pictures of John's time traveling golf cart and see if I can make heads or tails out of any of it.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-22-2001 12:28 PM
Thank you very much for scrutinizing everything I said in a Howard Stern manner. But you missed my point. You asked no real questions, had no real dialogue. Just commented and ran off saying vicinities. Just like Mel.
I take it you speak like this often.
((and we wonder why kids in southern California are shooting...))
Maybe because of people like you.
Posted by Lee Heggy on 03-22-2001 12:38 PM
I think I got your point quite well and if not then you just made it for me with your nasty little tag at the end of your squawk. Sorry if I stepped on your tail.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-22-2001 12:41 PM
Where you been Phil?
(( but my point is that you appear to be going about distributing your beleif in a counter-productive way. ))
What would be a productive way for you?
((Your current method of discussion seems clouded by your passionate dislike for the technology and frankly, it is hard to take you serious because of that.))
If you knew illegal drugs were bad and could kill your kids if they tried that, wouldn’t you tell them, and hate illegal drugs?
((….. you seem to view people who are older than you in a distrustful if not aggravated way.))
When? All I did was answer Mel’s questions, and I didn’t even say every old person. I said him in particular.
(( I would sincerely be interested in understanding your belief when presented in a less inflamed fashion.))
Again, how should I present it?
((… you feel others are wrong, ok, but say why others are wrong without attacking. I mean, if you want someone to understand your viewpoint, calling them sheep is a bad way to start.))
First off, haven’t I been telling people how it’s wrong? Second of all, sheep was a comment to those people that bowed to John like if he can’t be wrong. To people who wouldn’t listen to any other side but John’s.
I hope this clarifies things.
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-22-2001 12:48 PM
(and we wonder why kids in southern California are shooting...))
"Maybe because of people like you."
Ouch! Wrong forum to be discussing the child shooters, but I have looked at why it happens and come up with my own conclusions. People like Lee are not among the evidence. C'mon Javier, I am rootin' for a constructive dialogue.
Posted by Bob Marz on 03-22-2001 12:55 PM
1. "Some things are worth fighting for." Chocolate, maybe, but the credibility of a self-proclaimed time traveler ln an internet message board?
2. People are drawing conclusions based sheerly on the issue of whether Titor has posted lately, concluding its an admission of guilt, knavery, chicanery, etc. It proves no such thing. The fact that you draw a flawed or hasty conclusion or project causal connections has nothing to do with reality itself. There are all sorts of legitimate reasons why he might not have posted lately.
3. I think Javier sees himself as Don Quixote, the man of La Mancha, defending us "sheep," and deluded "followers" of the 'Pie Pipper'(sic), ie, the guardian alpha-male patrolling the edge of the herd for danger. I see him as a good guy too, but one who because of tenacity and obsession, has singlehandedly beaten the funfactor of this thread to a bloody pulp.
Posted by Lee Heggy on 03-22-2001 12:55 PM
Thanks for the vote of confidence there Phil. Xavier also said that,
"I take it you speak like this often."
and then in the very next post replicates my form of posting. (which isn't patented and used by thousands of others as well) Imitation is a form of flattery though and I'll take it for what it's worth. I'm logging off and leaving now (not running). I've got to go eat a burger before they are outlawed.
Posted by Lola Montez on 03-22-2001 01:01 PM
Jeez, you guys, I wish you wouldn't encourage him. Now we will never be able to move on. Very funny, though,
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-22-2001 01:25 PM
Ouch? It wasn’t me who started. I had to finish it though… You support the person who just attacked me by defending his statements. But don't wish to answer my questions? Talk about being counter-productive...
Where’s your credibility now? Where do you stand? I thought you wanted me to say where people are wrong. Which is just what I did… And have been doing from the start.
Any further questions?
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-22-2001 01:25 PM
Is Javier or Time Travel the subject of discussion now?
Posted by Mel Reckling on 03-22-2001 01:31 PM
Thanks guys for coming to my defense. In response to your post. I am 47 years old and yes I was once 21. Regrets I've had a few, but than again too few to mention(thanks Mr. Sinatra). Didn't Al Bundy once score 4 touchdowns in a single game in high school and still wind up a shoe salesman?
I know I'm a nobody, but I'll ask you do you own a Porsche? I do. Do you own your own business? I do. Have you ever shot under par in golf? I have 8 times. Do you own your home? I do. About 15 years ago I was one of the top 50 Toyota salesman in the country. The point is none of this matters. We all have our own accomplishments. The only thing I'm apparently good at is getting under some people's skin on this post to post BBS.
By the time I was 21 I had been to Europe twice. Once made it back from Amsterdam with only 20 bucks in my pocket and having to hitch through N.Y.C. The important thing in life is to make the most of your experiences and to listen to the advice of people more experienced than yourself. I guess I'm doomed to be an old Fuddy Duddy.
I feel a truce is in order. We are way off topic and they'll probably pull the plug on us at any time. Let me know how you feel.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-22-2001 01:31 PM
I don’t know what’s up with some of these people. It could be anything. It could be the fact that John isn’t here. Maybe now that Darby is perhaps brining people to realize what they believed John to be, has upsetted them a bit. Or maybe they hate us, for being apart of driving John away, I don’t know. Those are my guesses though.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-22-2001 01:37 PM
Sure Mel, I guess we can have a truce. Even though I have more to say .
But remember, I had no body supporting me, I am half your age, and someday I will own a house. All in due time.
P.S. Actually I am only 20 years old. My birthday is in 3 weeks .[Edited by Javier Cortez on 03-22-2001 at 01:40 PM]
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-22-2001 01:45 PM
It isn't "these people"... it's you my friend. It wasn't John that brought out the worst in any of us, it was each of us in turn, turning up the heat.
You have a way of upsetting people, and quickly. When they feel the must defend whatever it is you've upset them about, they come back with all guns a-blazing.
Seriously, you do have a problem with time travelers - so it seems, and you're dead set on proving it. We all understand that, but here, the point it moot. We don't care too much whether or not you like them, we only care to prove the truth.
Unfortunately, none of us, except John can do that right now, and he isn't around.
I sort of suspected he vanish quietly - and he apparently has. So... rather than everyone discussing the points of being 21/43 or 56, we should be discussing the data we DO have, pictures and otherwise, and trying to piece together what little we know.
If John is real, and he wants a person to observe, he will let us know. Note that it is my opinion he won't want us to, and if he DOES provide a video, obviously none of us are going to believe it. Which, by the way, John stated several times in the beginning - "I do not WANT you to believe" - I think were his words.
The bickering accomplishes nothing, except to escalate a war that has no purpose. Testosterone has its place, but it ain't here.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-22-2001 01:53 PM
I admit I am confused.
I may have to consult "Doctor Who", President of Galifry, President of the High Council of 'Time Lords' and ask him a few questions. He's usually off though fighting humans mortal enemey, the 'Darleks'.
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-22-2001 01:53 PM
"What would be a productive way for you?"
Well, since you ask, I would attempt to describe my view in a clear and descriptive manner. I have read all your posts and your web site. I still do not understand *specifically* what your view IS based on. You may have stated these things in previous posts, but overall the tone you take in presenting has made it difficult to assemble an accurate picture of what it is you are trying to say. The objective in presentations is to make it EASY for the 'viewer' to understand. The rhetoric confuses your message.
"If you knew illegal drugs were bad and could kill your kids if they tried that, wouldn’t you tell them, and hate illegal
I do know why certain drugs are illegal. I am aware that people die from them sometimes. I had a friend who went on a research trip on homelessness and lived the life and tried heroin and died. I have no kids, but should I be so graced as to have them someday, I would raise them knowing that I am the one man they can always count on to care about them. I would encourage the discussion of anything, no matter the subject by not violating trust issues involved in personal discussions. If said child were to somehow become involved with the drugs, I would not hate the drugs, I would find the distributor of said drugs to children and at the very least quietly talk to my local PD Detectives about removing said distributor from society. As for said child, I would desire to discover why they felt the need to do illegal drugs, but not freak on the child so they do not shut down and hate their elders.
"All I did was answer Mel’s questions, and I didn’t even say every old person. I said him in particular."
Sorry. I was a tad too broad perhaps, but there is a valid point to make. Sometimes people state things in such a way that they themself do not see how others are reading\hearing it. The way I read your comment was indeed toward Mel when viewed on its own, but collectively your demeanor seems fairly anti-toward people you do not know personally and may happen to be older than yourself.
"First off, haven’t I been telling people how it’s wrong?"
Perhaps you have, but it seems to come across as if to say *because I say so*
"...sheep was a comment to those people that
bowed to John like if he can’t be wrong. To people who wouldn’t listen to any other side but John’s."
Again, Its all in how you state things. The way in which you stated the sheep comment literally implied that everyone else were sheep. Again, you may not see that implication, but it IS there.
"I hope this clarifies things"
Me too. I almost admire the enthusiasm you show, but as I see it, when enthusiasm is coupled with a hatred of something it becomes a crusade. The crusades were over long ago. I urge you to re-evaluate your feeling of hatred, but I will not suggest you rethink your view. Hate is such an ugly emotion that it consumes ones soul. I am not intending to offend you Javier and it is not my goal to help everyone in the world, but you have such a determined passion, it seems a waste to see that consumed with the hatred. I hated someone before. Turns out, I had been harming myself by hating that person. They were external to me so I moved on with life and although I still Strongly dislike them, I do not throw myself into their path on purpose and am a pretty happy guy.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-22-2001 02:40 PM
Your empathic nature is understandable. But I cannot always be concern by how someone will interpret what I say. I don’t claim to be a people person; I never said I would be politically correct. I said I would do what’s right, and bring out the truth. Which is what we are all looking for, and doing?
So my way is different. Is there a standard I have to follow?
You can get the same results in many different ways. I suppose being offence, instead of defense or neutral is what most people prefer that I be. That’s very nice, but it wouldn’t fit my nature.
Action if more my forte, defense might be another mans way of solving problems. And some are neutral (pacifists) who don’t try, but get things done somehow.
Each way has it’s own merit. Like many others things in this world (religions, schools, governments). I choose action though.
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-22-2001 02:54 PM
I was not trying to change you. I was simply offering advice on a more effective way to get your message understood. If force is your way, so be it, but be prepared to be misunderstood. No harm no foul. No disrespect. Take care Javier. I believe you have peoples best interest at heart, but I also believe you are taking the hard path to communication.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-22-2001 03:10 PM
My way is not so much force, but actually doing something. Taking action. Force by it's self sounds really bad. And I guess that's were I was misunderstood. Oh well, thanks for understanding . I'm glad we could all come to a resolution.
Posted by Lola Montez on 03-22-2001 03:29 PM
This thread has gone south. Rick, I think you should be the one to start a new thread on TT where we can carry on our previous discussion and leave these guys to worry over JC's communication style (or lack thereof).[Edited by Lola Montez on 03-22-2001 at 03:32 PM]
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-22-2001 06:10 PM
And what previous discussion would that be? Supporting a man who claims to be from the future? Ookkaayy.
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-22-2001 06:19 PM
What Boomer has described so far, even though he uses the term Tipler Sinusoid, isn't the description of a Tipler cylinder. Professor Tipler describes the cylinder as having 10 solar masses or more and squeezed into an infinitely dense and infinitely long cylinder - which is longitudionally spun at about one billion RPM's.
I suppose that if you were interested in verification of Boomer's science that you could go right to the source, Dr. Frank Tipler, Tulane University, for an interview. Ask him his thoughts on Boomer's device - afterall, its Dr. Tipler's science:
Address: Department of Mathematics
New Orleans, LA 70118
Office: Gibson 305
Phone: (504) 862-3449
FAX: (504) 865-5063
Oh...the Schwarzschild Radius of about 1.33 meters (4 ft). I hope that Boomer doesn't hang his left arm out the window because it might be left behind in 2036 when he fires up that puppy.
I doubt that you'll get to interview Boomer. I wanted to know the ET of his trip because of some comments he posted at various times. He's stated that its very important for the machine to be absolutely still - it makes a "timelike trip" and not a "spacelike trip". He also says that the traveler is exposed to 1.5 to 2.0 g's of accelleration and needs an oxygen supply. At 2 g accelleration you will be traveling just a tad faster than a Chevy pick-up in short order (about one year to reach light speed).
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-22-2001 08:30 PM
Do You suppose DARBY, that IF John is a TT, that the Tipler cyclinder he describes could simply be a revision on the current one that Mr. Tipler has? I mean, if he is from 2036, it could be a revised schematic.
Todays side trip with JC was actually healthy for the thread by my view, for there has been contempt brewing for a while and perhaps that released some tensions. For my part, I was trying to offer a method of communicating to JC because I am sincerely interested in all perspectives given. His included. I dunno if he will provide a detailed and less 'action' aka force oriented dialogue (teasing JC), but we shall see. That is what makes it pertinent to the thread.
Posted by Lola Montez on 03-22-2001 09:38 PM
I certainly applaud your effort and admire you for having the kind of heart that makes that effort. But I think it is obvious by now that no headway is possible. It starts to detract from the other good stuff going on here.
To the board-
Why do you think John has gone off the board? Is it because Darby's analysis made him uncomfortable or could it have been Rick's serious offer to film the event? (or neither)
I don't think packing would be taking every waking moment as there is not much room in that car.
There was another alleged TT around awhile ago that left due to lack of interest. He claims to be from the far future. It would be interesting to see where our discussion might go with a different scenario for the future.
I wanted to make a point regarding Darby's treason suggestion made earlier. Every revolution starts with an act of treason. History is written by the victors. We have many hero's in our past that would be considered villians if the English had won the war.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-22-2001 10:02 PM
I had a few ideas why John might not be here. About 2 pages ago today .
John feels the pressure he’s been getting in this thread by someone he didn’t expect. He was well comfortable when it was just me being the only one opposing him. But now, that’s all changed.
We all know John wouldn’t leave without saying good-bye. He likes the attention; he likes people to think he’s interesting. Right Pamela?
Typical Machiavellian behavior if you ask me.
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-22-2001 10:46 PM
He was out of town.
Posted by Barbara Clements on 03-22-2001 11:01 PM
Well, my guess is he'll be back. In the meantime can someone explain what a tipler sinusoid field is?
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-22-2001 11:16 PM
The thoughts fromt the 'Great Nuthin' which will prove nuthin'. While I never followed through on physics and just do not remember it, I leave the calcs to someone else. My whole thought, and I will have to do a lot of reviewing, is even if a person (John) shows up with a device claiming to travel in time, something just bothers me about the convenience of it. To me all things that were built needed a boost of technology. Nothing was convenient. Now I admit that producing a microsinglarity would be significant, and clever engineering would help, but still I feel that it just does not produce a time machine. I have to check on the theory of "why" that would produce 'time travel'. I must admit that I am not trying to solve how to produce a time machine, which to me with all of the math and thinking just ends up being in a different ball park then where the ball was even hit.
That's all I have right now, two cents.
But if your really convinced that this produces time travel, I read about it.
Posted by Barbara Clements on 03-22-2001 11:35 PM
One thought did just occurr to me, and I'm not saying this as proof of anyone claiming to be a time travelor, but more or less as an interesting socialolical point, no one believed Jesus was who he was either.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-22-2001 11:35 PM
I'll try to be brief. At first, I thought 'smart rocks' sounded like a good idea. Now, I do not. The only practical purpose of having a 'smart rock' to me is to shoot down an incoming missile to keep the missile from reaching the target. Leaving nuclear missiles in the ocean or exploding the missile high above, perhaps in space, may just wreck the ozone layer or something, especially, leaving corroded nuclear missiles in the ocean. They will corrode. They do find bombs from WWII yet.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-23-2001 12:06 AM
How do you know? Is he back then? I guess we should hear from him real soon .
Barbara, so what's your point? John is a real Time Traveler because some people don't believe him?
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-23-2001 01:29 AM
Okay, I admit that somewhere I am not up to par with these theories. But one question seems to not have been asked, and if I missed it I apologize.
Interesting theories, except "Who or what was the first time traveler?"
I am not debating whether John is real or not, nor if the theory supports time travel. Before humans went into space, I think, if I ever think I remember, monkeys went into space. I find that it would be dishearting if all of a sudden, "we need a human operator of this device, because a human must go in order to get back." I think of a moral, ethical people, that some type of remote controls and initial flights would be needed. Frankly, this type of time travel, even with 100% certainty, scares the "heck" out of me. Is anyone sure that they would indeed volunteer for a "All of the theory works out, but.... we won't really be sure until you come back from your TT trip." And by the way, have a nice day!
Just imagining what going on this trip really means.
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-23-2001 07:47 AM
I'm assuming that if what Boomer says is true then the science would be an advancement on what Dr. Tipler has proposed. However Dr. Tipler isn't in 2036 he's here in 2001 and should have some ideas about what Boomer purports to be true of Tipler-based science.
Surely you're not suggesting that if Albert Einstein was alive today that there would be no value in seeking his opinion of Boomer's GR ideads, are you?
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-23-2001 07:59 AM
Javier: About Barbaras comment, she states that" I'm not saying this as proof of anyone claiming to be a time travelor". It seems clear enough that she was only drawing the conclusion that Jesus was not believed to be Jesus and John may not be believed to be a TT. Yes I agree it leads to an assumption, but moreso she seems to clearly bring up the fact that we really do not know and will not know unless something happens to prove it or disclaim it.
James: Yesterday was a day that was more or less devoted to Javier. I do not wish to offend you, but really, Javier has his point of view too. I would agree that his manner of conveying that message has at times been caustic, but your attack on him actually seems worse than his 'action'aka force oriented method of communication. The frustration is understood by everyone I think, but isn't the action of telling him "leave and go back to your website" a tad extreme?
Everyone: Yesterday was indeed a day that centered less on topic than might be desired, in the words of an infamous person,"cant we all just, get along?" j/k Really though, I am curious if anyone believes John is a TT based on faith, since as of yet there is no concrete proof. I ask this out of curiosity and request that if anyone responds to this that everyone simply address this, if they wish, without attacking. Yes Javier, I am asking you too (playin with ya, J)
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-23-2001 08:07 AM
Well, Darby, I think I overlooked the possible value of talking to Mr. Tipler and discussing the model that John has brought forth. Who knows, may that is how Mr Tipler revises his model. Would that not be bizarre if someone brought the John design to Mr Tiplers attention and thus caused the Time Travel Technology to advance?
"Surely you're not suggesting that if Albert Einstein was alive today that there would be no value in seeking his opinion of Boomer's GR ideads, are you?"
Oh No! Al was a facinating a brilliant man. Personally I rate Schrodinger a tad higher on the list, but not by much. I actually suspect that Al would be pertly opposed to the concepts brought up here. Maybe I am wrong, but Al only desired to go just so far into quantum physics. therefore rendering his opinion interesting but not necesarily pertinent. Am I wrong?
Posted by David R Ferguson on 03-23-2001 08:18 AM
If time travel is to be achieved using the methods described by John, where is the mass coming from that would be required to achieve it? I believe Darby touched on this earlier, but I have not seen a satisfactory explanation given.
Supposing John is who he said he is, what business is it of anybody here to question his "motives"? I see this as no different, in this aspect, as it is for anyone of us to take a trip across town or across state lines. Since John is an American, he is legally allowed to move about as he feels as long as he is not breaking any laws. Had he been from another country, then I suppose he would have had to report to Immigration.
I know of no laws against time travel, per se. I do know of some regimes that have existed, though, where freedom of movement by individuals was not allowed..."Show me your papers!"...and it was not in the United States of America.
Darby, I do not necessarily regard John's purported actions in the upcoming conflict to have been treasonous. They MAY have been, but I would have to know more details to make that determination.
By the way, Darby, I picture you as about 55 to 60 years of age, working as a university professor with patches on the elbows of your jacket and loafers on your feet, occasionally imbibing on a pipe filled with excellent and aromatic tobacco. You enjoyed reading Sherlock Holmes as a child, and fancy yourself as a modern day sleuth of his ilk. You are highly intelligent, as well as being very popular with your students. I do not believe you have ever married or had children, as you were gilted by the one and only true love of your life while still a youth. Being the romantic that you are, it was at that low point in your life that you decided to devote yourself to your academic pursuits. You also drive a two seated European convertible.
How did I do?
(By the way, I would have loved to have had you as one of my professors, too!)[Edited by David R Ferguson on 03-23-2001 at 08:25 AM]
Posted by Lee Heggy on 03-23-2001 08:18 AM
First, I wish to apologise for perhaps stirring the pot with a bit too much vigor yesterday..I thought that the possibility of time travel was pretty much accepted since in a way we are all time travelers but only in one direction and at a universal speed common to all of us. The thought that through mechanical contrivance we could go in several different directions at different rates is a fascinating conjecture. I believe that John Titor (the real name or gender is irrelevant) is a real person. As to the possibility that he/she/it may be from some elsewhen I have my doubts but I will allow for a tiny crack of that possibility to exist. Why such a person would spend precious time here on this BBS is unfathomable to me. It would be like going back to the 1930s and listening in on a party-line telephone. It seems apparent that unless he/she/it comes back and makes further comment there isn't much point to this thread and a new general discussion of temporeal movement is in order.
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-23-2001 08:24 AM
Thanks for the kind words. And you're right, every revolution begins with a traitor's act. And is then fought by 19 year old kids. Love to talk it over with you - lunch at the Red Barn, SY.
Everyone should understand that I don't really consider Boomer to be a traitor or a murderer principally because I don't believe his story and secondarily because his online persona appears to be that of a decent person.
What I attempted to point out is that the totality of a circumstance should be considered in any analysis of rhetoric. As Boomer spun the yarn he made some statements about his political alignment that needed to be addressed. There's more yet to be considered. For instance:
Let's 'jus 'spose once again that its all true. Boomer is a TT, a Major in the military (or former Major now under civilian contract)of the regional nation of Florida (or whatever that region is called)and our government is the enemy state in the war to begin in 2004. Let's also 'jus 'spose that Rick really is a former Military/DoD intelligence operative (and shooter)of that enemy state. Would Boomer, a trained field grade military officer allow Rick within 1000 miles of his country's device? If Rick turned out to be a "not-so-Ex" spook and managed to snatch the device with a little help from his friends what would prevent we, the enemy state, from returning the machine to 2036 with a suitcase nuclear device onboard?
Boomer has rather flippantly answered questions at times by saying that we can't affect his personal timeline. While that may be true a retalliatory strike by us would affect someone's timeline. A 22 kt nuke would mess up their entire afternoon if it went off in the lab upon the return of the machine.
Again, its a great topic for discussion but Boomer isn't a TT. No country, past-present-future, would trust such a powerful strategic device to Clodpole for the purpose of mixing both a business trip and a personal vacation. For the techno-military geeks: Have you ever heard of an Air FOrce officer who took out an SR-71 Blackbird on a vacation trip - kind of on loan from DIA/NSA for a few months. Same-same here.
Boomer may feel that a flip answer is OK, but his handlers wouldn't be quite so confident that the machine wouldn't be snatched.
Note for Rick: I agree with your earlier post that some sloppy detail work on military hardware or manuals is common. PRC-25's, PRC-75's and other common communications hardware are old and utilitarian and treated roughly.
Was sloppy workmanship and detailing on ICBM's, LA class nuke boats and nuclear devices also your experience? The machine and manual wouldn't be common grunt equipment that get humped in the boonies and tossed into the hooch at night. Its two year old (in 2036) cutting edge strategic technology developed by GE and CERN (cyclorton) and cost billions of dollars. Is it your experience that that sort of hardware is treated with the same disdain as a field radio?[Edited by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-23-2001 at 08:28 AM]
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-23-2001 08:45 AM
"what would prevent we, the enemy state, from returning the machine to 2036 with a suitcase nuclear device onboard? "
In your described 'jus' suppose scenario I had a couple thoughts that might bring caution to the possibility of ANY authority sending a suitcase in time. If I recall correctly, John stated he has to travel back to 1975 and then back to 2036. First, if I am correct with this statement, The machine would have to stop in '75 and it would stay there without a person in attendance thus blowing up somewhens 1975. Second, do we know if a person has to be in the 'driver seat' of the Chevy to operate the machine? If so, a suitcase nuke and a operator both go boom, thus a suicide mission. Also, Suppose an authority did that suitcase trick. Suppose it gets to 2036. There will be a lot of surprised people in Florida. Well, 'what if' the world line that received the suitacse happened to be ours when we reach 2036. OOPS!
Just a thought or two.
BTW, If 4 out of 5 Time Travellers SUFFER from diarhea, does the other one enjoy it?
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-23-2001 09:10 AM
So......We have progressed to talking and questioning John to thinking of what would happen if you sent a suitcase bomb back to John's world, blowing him up along with his machine and parts of the worldline he would be on at the time...possibly ours????
....Do you still wonder why you never see any time travelers?[Edited by Pamela Moore on 03-23-2001 at 09:13 AM]
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-23-2001 09:28 AM
Does anyone wonder if we will even make it through this time?
Maybe, John, is more adept at not being caught, then we think.
I beginning to think about the story, that it is not entirely been written by John, himself. That a group of people covered the story. I also wondered if John was a Russian, I would submit, although I do not know, that there are people in this country, that should not be here, and not poor people from another nation. Tied to embassies of foreign nations, I think the US does the same thing.
What would be the purpose of sending a suitcase bomb explosive through time?
You people are getting dangerous. Is that the use of a time machine?
Someone better bow to Javier than, because certainly other people would be fighting to not allow time travel.
I think most of the time, there must be continual civil wars in the future by opposing groups.
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-23-2001 09:29 AM
The suitcase thing is a suppose-it scenario that I cannot see anyone saying "oh yeah great idea" about.
Seems that by and large the posts have been quite thorough and inquisitive, but it is odd that John has not posted since the 18th. I saw your post about him being out of town. Does that mean he is back in town? If so, there are loads of questions still to be asked.
As for the way the thread has spun toward its current path. Consider a classroom of 4th graders. If the teacher leaves the classroom, does the class atmosphere take a spin toward another direction until the teacher returns to bring things back to the original direction? Yes.
I am not using the above example as a literal application to this threads posters or John, just the concept.
Please consider that before frowning at the current status. I am certain everyone would be quite pleased if john came on and fielded the concerns of those here. He did start the thread and it would be appropriate if he continued his dialogue or said thats it, time to skip the world lines.
If you have read back...except for yesterday...there have been many good questions left unanswered going way back. In fact I cannot find a single response from John regarding anything I have asked, so I have not been attempting to ask anything. Rather I have continued the interaction with others here. If you feel that a TT would not come here because someone chooses to speculate on other motives that are in the realm of possibilty to stretched possibility, then so be it, but look close and see the suitcase stuff for what it is. A speculation. Did anyone actually imply the application of that speculation? Not that I saw.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-23-2001 09:43 AM
But Phil, it is an interesting twist. Star Trek never addressed questions like "If we have matter dispacement, we'll beam a bomb aboard". All the tech from these made-up worlds were so different that no species could do that. Still, there are 'laws of nature' that are all the same.
How does 'tech' remain different if all 'laws of nature' are the same? That does include all species in the Universe to me, so far. We suppose that species would be different somehow, but in the end because of the 'laws of nature' that may not be true. How do we know that John is not a alien? At which point do humans go a different way with tech. In the future, if a war happened, if anyone mentioned doing certain tech, I think witch hunts would be common, not that tech, never mention it again, kind of life.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-23-2001 09:46 AM
John, are you receiving smileys yet! Smile, smile, smile, lots of smileys!
Posted by David R Ferguson on 03-23-2001 09:49 AM
Nice to have you back! I concur with a lot of what Phil just posted. I, too, have asked several questions to John and none of them was ever answered. Maybe he did not consider them "deep" enough to reply to, but I felt that my questions were not of the sort that could be construed as a means for me to gain an unfair advantage over someone else. For example, I asked if the NCAA still held a baskeball tournament, and if so, was it still in its current format.
As for Darby's comment regarding placing a suitcase sized nuclear device in John's time machine, that appears to be a good and appropriate point in which to discuss. It falls within the realm of philosphical and moral implications that have previously appeared in this thread. I have not really been able to place my finger on just what it is that Javier has found so offensive about time travel in general, but this is a scenario that might explain it. Maybe Javier fears Time Travelers doing the reverse and bringing back nuclear (or worse) devices into our time and setting them off in an act of terrorism.
Anyway, I am glad back to have you back in the discussion, Pamela. Do you think John will resurface here?
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-23-2001 10:03 AM
I didn't bring up the scenario of the suitcase. I did try and explain why I felt it was pointless for anyone to try it though. I see no error in logic there. You mention Star Trek. In the Wrath of Kahn, was there not a Genesis device that Kahn wanted to use as a weapon? That is a tech spec example that uses well intended science for less nobel causes. The difference is that in that movie, Khan Intended to do his scheme. Here it was not an intended action. Just speculation on what a governing body could contemplate doing. Of course from my current viewpoint, the theories and discussion here are facinating, but still fantasy role play unless that role play becomes real thru solid proof.
I can only speak for myself, but I do not wish harm to anyone. Not a sole. As to John specifically, he has not harmed me or my loved ones, so why should I desire to harm him. I would like it if he would come back for a bit and at least properly terminate the discussion from his part. It is irritating when someone starts something and then simply disappears. Have you seen the number of people who have browsed this thread? My god, theres been tens of thousands of browses and well over 700 posts. That seems to say something about the interest level.
Seems that overall, everyone here would like to continue this discussion, but the central figure in the debate is MIA.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-23-2001 10:20 AM
I'm to wish no harm on anyone. I am just referring to the storyline.
Let's suppose its true, then: "Once the nuclear button is pressed, humanity breaks down." It may never recuperate.
New Rule from God, perhaps: "Thou shall keep thy finger off of the nuclear button, humans never again gain for hundreds of year." Then such a tech as TT, would be a 'forbidden' tech.
Well, I'll have to think of something more pleasant.
John stated that he did not understand why people would stay in the cities if nuclear war was immenient, this may be the reason.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-23-2001 10:51 AM
To answer John's question somewhere along this thread:
Humans just have a better life coming up with techs that help humans out to deal with overpopulation and other issues than developing techs that lead the world into madness.
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-23-2001 11:06 AM
"John stated that he did not understand why people would stay in the cities if nuclear war was immenient, this may be the reason."
I actually think that the majority of people stay in the city because the emphasis of lifestyle has shifted away from the rural. I cannot count how many people have told me that they could not even contemplate living anywhere but L.A., for example. Additionally, I also come across many people who are insulated from real news by their own choice. Just those two attitudes alone can account for many of the people who would choose to stay in a city.
I live in suburbia. Downtown L.A. is 35 miles from me as the crow flies. There is the Seal Beach Naval Weapons Station so close to me that I can just about see their fences. The only reason I am here is because my wife will not move out of the region. I would prefer a rural setting. Life has choices and because I love my wife, I stay. Rest assured that if/when it comes time to flee, I will be doing so, bringing her along by force if necessary. I am certain many will stay. Why? Lots of reasons, but I only will name the two.
It is pointless to me to continue speculating on if John is a TT unless additional compelling documents are conversational exchanges occur, for if nothing else, he has provided a discusion that allowed us all to explore many themes that spur from future thinking. His list of suggestions are logical and the entire dialogue has been entertaining to boot.
Ever heard of classes that entertain while teaching? Comedy traffic school is an example. Of course this is not a school and John is not a teacher, but the principle is the same.[Edited by Phil Fiord on 03-23-2001 at 11:08 AM]
Posted by Barbara Clements on 03-23-2001 11:40 AM
Well, like with Jesus and his situation, I was just thinking how frustrating to the person it must be if it IS true. Suddenly everything is frozen, you have to defend your arrival, and that becomes the whole thing. After all, everyone else walks in a room and advances from that point, but if you doubt the reality of the person coming in the room its like you never get to be in the room until you can prove your going through the door is allowed. I always thought it must've been frustrating to be Jesus, (saying here he was what he said he was) and spend all your time having to defend your claim, and not get on to the reason you came and all. Very aggravating.
Posted by James Boley on 03-23-2001 11:41 AM
Darby sure seemed to hit the nail on the head with John Titor. He came towards the end of Johns 'reign' over his followers.
Is Darby John Titor?
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-23-2001 11:54 AM
I sure hope not, I like the way Darby thinks .
P.S. If I don't come back today, it's because somethings gone wrong with my computer upgrade. C-ya.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-23-2001 12:03 PM
The purpose of John's visit is that we help them solve their problems in the future, that's why he is here.
I do not know if we can do that without being a comedy routine to him. Certainly, if everyone bowed to everyone, like the Japanense do then no human may be talking. Taking it to the ridiculous, everyone be bowing the rest of their lives. Living in a major city is to me another point of ridiculous, people live there for the greatness of the city, then everyone decides that they really rather be actually at times somewhere else, away from a big city. The only reason to be in a 'big city' is to feel more alive.
I admit I am dumbfounded at this point. I can not perhaps help John with his problems in the future, and I can not help anyone in this world now, but still I must be, somehow.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-23-2001 12:50 PM
I'll propose another question to John. I like the validity of the TV show "StarGate". You need six points of reference for a cube and a seventh reference, the point of origin, before you can travel through a wormhole type time travel.
May be that I am missing something here. Further thought required.
The Universe is central to our existence, but we are central to the Universe. Yet we have infinite multiple 'worldlines' of all time where we are 'yet' not a 'God' but are a 'God'. Interesting.
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-23-2001 03:45 PM
An interesting thought – Boomer and me - the same person. Imagine the philosophical thought games that I’d be playing with myself. Fortunately for me, I’m not him (I think he’d agree).
I posed the question of sending a device back to Boomer’s lab in the machine from the perspective of his handlers. From their perspective we are the enemy upon whom they made war. Would they be willing to risk even the smallest of possibility of having their machine fall into enemy hands and incur some sort of retaliatory strike? Nuke, biological, chemical, or just a healthy dose of C4? Imagine the result of blowing up the device with ordinary explosives. I don’t know if I’d want two 3*10^18 kg black holes auguring into my back yard.
Does it really make sense that his handlers would authorize a personal vacation with their billion-dollar machine? It is, after all, a machine. Machines can break down. It’s the result of a program that went live in 2034. It has a computer – software, by definition, has bugs. Last I heard we still have burglars in Florida. While he’s been hanging around some hype could steal his IBM 5100. It may be a piece of junk but would a junkie know that? When your nose is running and your skin is crawling and you want that smacked-back feeling any port in the storm will do to get a fix – even Boomer’s IBM 5100. If the machine were that important to his handlers would they authorize a personal vacation and risk losing the computer?
I dunno – how about you?
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-23-2001 04:02 PM
((Pamela. Do you think John will resurface here?))
I think he is planning on it but he said he will be unable to address everything.. I don't think he has time. I don't want to speak for him though maybe he will come on here and tell you himself.
Albert, it is interesting that you mentioned "StarGate." That was one of my favorite movies. I thought of that right away when they spoke of sending a bomb back to John's lab.
they did the same in that science fiction movie they snuck a nuclear device back through the stargate to blow up the other world if they found life on it.
Did you see the movie "contact" with Jodie Foster? That is another one of my favorite movies.
ps. John and Darby are NOT the same person. maybe Javier and Darby are the same??? hehehehehe[Edited by Pamela Moore on 03-23-2001 at 04:11 PM]
Posted by Lee Heggy on 03-23-2001 04:15 PM
Pamela, If John IS a real TT...he will have time, all the time in the world.
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-23-2001 04:26 PM
I think that is a misconception. that a time traveler has "all the time in the world."
That might be true if his machine could be operated in that manner. but my understanding is it cannot. once you operate the machine and you leave the worldline can you return to the same one?
You can only arrive and leave at certain times .
the conditions have to be right.
Posted by Lee Heggy on 03-23-2001 04:51 PM
Pamela, You may be right about that. I just don't know but I do find it very interesting that although none of us are currently time traveling except in our own lives we have somehow managed to divise rules of the road for doing so.
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-23-2001 04:58 PM
"none of us are currently time traveling except in our own lives..."
How can you be so sure? Maybe there are others.....
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-23-2001 05:09 PM
I have just received another picture from John to post.
I will send it to Rick Donaldson to post on his board.
It is titled "final proof?"
Hopefully he will post it soon.
Posted by Lee Heggy on 03-23-2001 05:13 PM
Well I suppose nothing is what it seems if you can warp time and space so you've got me there but I have a pretty solid feeling that most if not all of us are very firmly docked in the present. Thanks for keeping me loose.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-23-2001 05:25 PM
Thanks Pamela, I’ll take that as a compliment, but I’m not Darby . Btw, Lee brought up something interesting I’d like to talk about. “Rules of the Road” as we know them, apply for everyone’s safety. How I have been saying all along, as far as we know they are no rules for Time Travelers. Exploiting the past, and its unknowing people is unethical and convenient for them. For all we know, they could be invisible right now, and orchestrating our lives to their will. Anyone ever think about that? Well we all should… Consider the possibilities that Time Travelers are opportunist, who wish nothing more then to help them selves.
I have a lot to say on this matter, but I’ll spare you all the rhetoric… For the moment .
Anyway’s, speaking of movies, check out this website and it’s trailer, I like it . http://www.finalfantasy.com
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-23-2001 07:20 PM
Daryby: Let's 'jus 'spose once again that its all true. Boomer is a TT, a Major in the military (or former Major now under civilian contract)of the
regional nation of Florida (or whatever that region is called)and our government is the enemy state in the war to begin in 2004. Let's
also 'jus 'spose that Rick really is a former Military/DoD intelligence operative (and shooter)of that enemy state. Would Boomer, a
trained field grade military officer allow Rick within 1000 miles of his country's device? If Rick turned out to be a "not-so-Ex" spook
and managed to snatch the device with a little help from his friends what would prevent we, the enemy state, from returning the
machine to 2036 with a suitcase nuclear device onboard?
Excellent! That was, I suppose one of the main reasons I tried to point out several things, including the fact that 1) he won't let me be "3rd party"
2) Anyone on this board might be a spook with just such a motive (though I SERIOUSLY doubt it).
Also Darby:Note for Rick: I agree with your earlier post that some sloppy detail work on military hardware or manuals is common. PRC-25's,
PRC-75's and other common communications hardware are old and utilitarian and treated roughly.
Was sloppy workmanship and detailing on ICBM's, LA class nuke boats and nuclear devices also your experience? The machine and
manual wouldn't be common grunt equipment that get humped in the boonies and tossed into the hooch at night. Its two year old (in
2036) cutting edge strategic technology developed by GE and CERN (cyclorton) and cost billions of dollars. Is it your experience that
that sort of hardware is treated with the same disdain as a field radio?
Right- Well, since I never dealt with ICBMs, LA Class nuke subs, and other nuclear devices personally, I can't answer that. The truth is though, that all military manuals have errors, even on ships.
One last thing... along these lines: For the techno-military geeks: Have you
ever heard of an Air FOrce officer who took out an SR-71 Blackbird on a vacation trip -
NEVER.. which is the first reason I considered John a fraud but just never stated it.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-23-2001 07:38 PM
Excellent critical thinking on that ex-military scenario Rick .
P.S. Anyone here a computer tech? I have a computer problem .
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-23-2001 08:01 PM
Pam said: I have just received another picture from John to post.
I will send it to Rick Donaldson to post on his board.
It is titled "final proof?"
Hopefully he will post it soon.
As she stated, I have recieved said photograph and it is very, very interesting. I find it almost funny in a way. But, before I tell you about it, let me tell you something even funnier - as in "Strange".
A few days ago, someone here on this list began to receive unsolicited email claiming they were from the government. They have threatened certain persons here as well. I have for the most part, successfully discovered who that person is. He is from this list.
Tonight, shortly after Pamela posted her message about the "final proof", my web site, and Anomalies.net went down...
One of two possibilities exists right now. The sites reside in California and it is possible a power outage caused the site to go offline. However, everything should have come back online after power was restored. I'm checking that right now and ought to have an answer sometime tomorrow morning.
The second possibility is there has been an attack on the site. Something called a denial of service, if anyone knows what that is. I've determined that INDEED there have been some "hits" on the machines out there - but at this point, I haven't confirmed it. I have people who are going to check though. If I find out, and the IPs - correction, the ISP matches the person who is sending out threatening letters... I have a sneaky suspicion the ONLY person being visited by the FBI or government agents will be the perpetrator.
Some how... some folks seem to forget those of us in computer security have means at our disposal not normally assigned to the normal internet crowd.
So - that said.. let me talk about the photograph since I can't post it tonight.
The photo is a scan of a Florida Government document.
The exact gist of the document is regarding the fact that insurance has run out on a specific vehicle and needs to be renewed or some other action taken.
The name, and most of the vehicle information has been blanked for privacy-sake. But... the important part is the date.
The date is 03/26/01
That's three days from today.
Unforntunately even for me, I find this to be no true explanation for John Titor, Time Traveler. As a "true skeptic" (not of time travel, but rather believing that John IS a time traveler) I realize that given the fiasco of the Florida election process this past year, that Florida of ALL places is suspect when it comes to government documents. It is in all likelyhood a typographical error. But, all of you can be the judge (assuming my site is back online tonight). Otherwise, I willget the photo online as soon as humanly possible. Yesterday, if I had a time machine.
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-23-2001 09:03 PM
~when it begins to rain,
it is time to go rainbow gazing.~
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-23-2001 09:12 PM
What's the suppose to mean Pamela?
Let's take a poll, who here has been contacted by someone claiming to be from the government?
Obviously what would they want with a TimeTravelActivist .[Edited by Javier Cortez on 03-23-2001 at 09:14 PM]
Posted by Lola Montez on 03-23-2001 10:17 PM
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-23-2001 10:50 PM
I feel for John for having such a mixed-up youth, but even John should realize certain thing. The Government probably is not interested in his 'time machine'. But you know politicians, they have probably passed a law that John owes them some kind of tax for entering from a different worldline, even if from the past or from the future. It is probably already as law in this day and age. John, you will have to pay your tax before you leave. They have no need to poke you with needles or take your 'time machine', but they will be very determined to collect their money. Why, heck, they do not even care if you pay with future money; since the debt is so large, and it would not even be paid off in the future of 2036. You would not want to leave small John with such a debt, would you?
What do you think John?
Yes, Pam, I have seen 'Contact', a while back. I think I remember some of it, not that much of it though.
Tell John to pay his tax before he leaves.
You know this day and age and politicians.
Posted by Philip Mistlberger on 03-24-2001 02:20 AM
Such a grandly entertaining thread.
About two years back, on the old Art Bell BBS (which used to be highlighted in that tiring blue, not this pleasant green), there was a self-proclaimed time traveller (Marc "X") who had everyone in a tizzy for about a month or so. The thread racked up hundreds of posts, it was often extremely funny, mostly for the interplay between several posters, about 4 or 5 of whom were all named "Mark".
The time-traveller, Marc X, claimed to be an anthropologist from the 22nd century. Unfortunately, in his initial introductory post he spelt "anthropologist" wrong several times. When this was duly pointed out to him by one of the Marks, he defended himself by claiming that English had morphed in the future, but that he would do his best to adapt to our current patterns. This explanation became his most common "out" when in hot spots.
Marc was not stupid, but I must say that John Titor has him beat hands down. He not only has covered his bases quite well, he has managed to disappear in a cloud of uncertainty that will at the worst leave some wondering (though granted Darby seems to have stymied him in the physics department).
Marc X made the error of returning from periods of absence in an attempt to offer rebuttals to attacks on his claims, and to try to dodge and justify and explain his way out of too many loopholes. In the end he failed. He was finally exposed, as someone tracked him down (the giveway being the "c" at the end of his first name, which made his whole name actually uncommon) and located him as a college student in a north mid-west university. But as a prankster he did a good job, provided the most entertaining thread I ever recall seeing on this BBS (outside of the "Oh My God" forum), and certainly stimulated many to think.
I haven't been able to read every post in this thread, so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned. But John's explanation of a "Russian invasion" of the U.S. is strikingly reminiscent of an obscure 1984 science fiction film called "Red Dawn", which dealt with just such a theme. The idea seems so outlandish that I can only wonder if "time-traveller John" didn't see that movie -- cheesie as it was.
Posted by Barbara Clements on 03-24-2001 04:30 AM
Did anyone listen to Art's show last night, he had a line open for TT's. Did any call in? I had to go to sleep as I get up at 5am to go to work, so I wondered.
Posted by Mike Haley on 03-24-2001 05:26 AM
I am listening to the archive at the moment and am currently 2 hours into it. Well, most of the calls have been people claiming to be the Anti-Christ. Will the real Anti-Christ please stand up and smite the false ones with pillars of fire? Or, better yet, do so on the air. That would inspire some righteous ( or not-so-righteous ) fear.
The few time travellers that called in really were not all that spectacular. None of them convincing, in my opinion. Especially the one that talked about time travelling vacations via pill, using nano-bots to send the body back in time. Sounds a little too much like that show "Time Trax". Now, if someone were capable of time travelling into the near future, say 30 minutes, then come back and, on the air, tell everyone who would call and what they would say, then that would be interesting.
Apparently, though, most time travellers come from 2008 and jump back to 2001 for some reason. Why 2001 is beyond me ( of course, we're only 3 months into it ) when 4004 BC would be so much more interesting. In my opinion, at least.
Posted by Randy Empey on 03-24-2001 07:33 AM
Why do you consider 'Red Dawn' an obscure science fiction film? Maybe we're not thinking the same movie, but your mention of the russian factor is pretty telling. It might be speculative near-future, but it is more patriotism-fiction or guns-and-glory-feel-good-save-the-free-world than it is science fiction -- nothing futuristic is involved at all. The pickup truck the main characters escape the opening scene in might be as old as the one Titor says he carries his time machine around in.
I think the line between observations, theories, dreams, past expereinces and good stories are blurred by both the medium here and the participants. So what? As long as ideas are exchanged, there is some intelligent dissembly & assembly going on and expressed possibilities are maximized, I think this kind of interchange is still healthy.
Its long been my intuition that the facts and figures we struggle to learn in school aren't the actual useful lessons we learn in school -- its learning to learn, excercising our minds, that is the ultimate benifit. It was my hope that simmular results could be gained in threads of this type.
And it has, yet ....
Some of us have traveled so far, and gained so much in our 'official' educational journeys that its become a knee jerk reaction to shoot 'impossible' stories down. I bet amazing will power has been excercised to keep said knee-jerks to a minimum, they have still had their effects ...
Of course, I error in the other direction, and that has its own short comings ... but, Javier, I am not being led of a cliff -- If I plunge into the sea of imagination it is of my own free will.
Critical thinking and analysis is needed and is doing good here, but lets not let it stop us from seeing the rest of the forest here.
Then again, I was always one of those boring kids who read the text book (or whatever fiction I had brought from home) when the teacher left the room ... (unless I was enlisted by the trouble makers to plan thier escape, but that is niether here nor there ...)
So, throw your spit wads ... make fun of the teacher's baldness and tie ... prepare your rebbuttals of the establisment's version of the facts ... there is something to be learned from such actions too -- just lets stop letting our knee-jerk reactions kick each other around.
What does plausibility of a story have to do with the reality of events indicated in said story? Its not a one to one relationship, I am sure -- is there enough correlation to back our claims of validity or invalidity without reasonable doubts?
Posted by Lee Heggy on 03-24-2001 07:46 AM
Great observations Randy! Anyone can call themselves a time traveler and be the catylst for lively discourse provided they do at least as good a job of it as JT did.
Don't get too hard on 'Old Philip'. Talking pictures themselves were only rumors when he descended from the highlands of Tibet.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-24-2001 08:08 AM
That news link might be very interesting to some who've been following some of the "predictions" here.
It covers a report about Jane's news - regarding the new "Russian Offensive". With the expulsion of the 50-something-odd Russians who are supposed to be spies... well, this comes as no surprise to me, but welcome back to the Cold War of the 21st Century.
My web site is still down, but is likely due to power outages.
I will be starting a thread later today about something related to this stuff in the hopes we can continues some important discussions, and lacking the intellectual barbs. Just give me some time, because I have to run through all of the several hundred posts again.
PS Javier... *I* wasn't contacted either. But, instead of you trying to figure it out, why don't you back off on that subject. The individuals who contacted me about it were upset and do not want to be known, hence the reason for NOT posting their names to begin with. Me thinks thou doth protest too much, so knock it off.[Edited by Rick Donaldson on 03-24-2001 at 08:29 AM]
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-24-2001 10:26 AM
John has not been seen or heard from here in this public forum since approximately page 40. Ten new pages, mostly barbs and personal attacks have occured since then.
I have compiled all of the writing that has been done by John Titor, alledged Time Traveler and will be going through it today for "predictions".
Let me explain.
John stated at one point he would not make any. In at least two other places he mentioned his reasons, or morals for not doing so.
However... I find it very difficult myself to not make predictions.
Let's make a rash assumption that any one of us could travel back in time to, say 1979 and once there, we could answer any questions presented to us by that population with whom we would interact.
At that point, people start asking you about the future. Though your personal rules keep you from making "predictions", they do not stop you from answering well placed questions about yourself, the time travel aspect, and even perhaps some vague history of yourself (Future to everyone else).
Within that aspect, you will give answers regarding the future that were either inadvertent or that you mistakenly considered "safe".
I place before you the supposition that John Titor, Alledged Time Traveler has done just so. In the thread I am about to open, we will discuss his information. Sometime today, I will post my list of possible predictions to a future Earth.
Join me there for this discussion... and let's keep this one open for the possibility John will post a good bye, or make an offer for me to fly down for his departure. (I'm still open to doing so).
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-24-2001 12:25 PM
If I was still in the Military I may have to listen to you. But I’m not, so I won’t. Plus how can I protest to much about this, when I only mentioned it once?
Anyway’s, I just woke up from a very strange Time Travel Dream. It was the year 2225, and it had to do with being a frozen cube. It was very weird .
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-24-2001 03:53 PM
The following message was forwarded to me from an anonymous source. I do not know why this person chose the venue he or she chose to attack me - which was through an innocent individual, but I don't like it one bit.
This is apparently one of the folks claiming military connections and asking folks to shut up. Well..
I don't like cowards. I don't people telling me to shut up either. If you want to talk to me, my email address is public. Feel free to write. I certainly want to hear from you in person. Until then, suffice it to say, I do not require 'enlightenment' from you or anyone else.
As far as whether or not "is he or isn't he" this is a free country in which I live so I am entitled to my opinion on this subject. I don't care if you wrote every manual in the US government. You're way off base attacking me, THROUGH someone else, and privately.
You're a coward. Come out from hiding and admit who you really are instead of using innocent go-betweens. You haven't a clue what you're talking about when you refer to me. You also haven't a clue what a "future manual" might look like, no more than I have a clue about it.
You see... If John were from the future, and the items I've already posted on another thread are even remotely true, the government as you know it now, and publications standards ARE NOT what you think they are. So... smart ass - either come out in public, or shut up.
In the mean time, answer me here - in Public. And before I hear any bitching about "private email" remember this, you SENT IT TO ME THROUGH A THIRD PARTY - therefore it is MINE TO DO WITH AS I WISH, and I wish to release it to the public domain, right here on this board. Now... if you want a private debate, write me privately. Until then, keep your mouth shut and leave the middle people out of this.
My Comments below, are in Parens:
----- Original Message -----
From: <Name Blanked by Me>
To: <name Blanked by me>
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2001 2:23 PM
Subject: Let's help Rick out, shall we?
<Name Blanked by me>
Sigh. Sorry to trouble you again. Please do "Rick Donaldson" a favor and forward this text on to him.
This is a private note to you. I trust that <Name Blanked by me> will keep it in confidence also.
(That person did... I chose not to)
Now, your claims of government service allowing you to be knowledgeable about "tech pubs" - just what exposure did you have to them? Was it a tech pub for swivel chair maintenance?
(Nope... my background is documented well, in several places, you apparently didn't bother yourself to read them)
As a civilian who grew up an Army brat only to marry a spouse who spent twenty years, combined, in the military and the private military aerospace arena and during which time I went into the publishing world where I ended up working on military technical publications for a while, I find your lack of knowledge (and gullibility) striking. So allow me to privately enlighten you.
(As a civilian huh? Funny... you're in the "publishing world". As a matter of fact, so am I. As a matter of fact, I worry about many THOUSANDS of documents. As a matter of FACT I'm neither gullible nor am I lacking in knowledge. Nothing I've stated to this point on this BBS is inaccurate in any sense of the word. Your insults from someone so obviously "enlightened" trouble me though, since you obviously do not belong in the job you're in now, especially if you have a clearance... tell me who you are so we can take care of that forthwith.)
Considering the subject at hand is purported to be such a high level technical device which, by its very nature, would potentially put lives in danger with each use (much like an aircraft), its manual format WILL BE in compliance with the highest available mil-specs and standards. Not only that, MULTIPLE MANUALS ARE CREATED by the military contractor, for said device, in different actual physical sizes for such technical devices covering many aspects of said devices - not just one.
(WILL BE in compliance with WHOSE standards? Yours? Certainly not. You obviously are from the year 2001. Funny how everyone wants to put their standards on someone like John. I don't believe John is a time traveler any more than you apparently do, on the other hand... at least I'm open minded enough to discuss the subject, something you're afraid to do in public. Your standards are for you, not for John. Get over it).
The private contractor who manufactured the device for the militarywould be required to rigidly adhere to those specs and standards for the accompanying technical publications as a requirement and condition of having been awarded a contract for manufacturing such a device..."lowest bidder" my ass. That has nothing in the world to do with mil-spec compliance which the government takes very seriously. The teams of degreed Engineers, Tech Writers, Drafts Persons, Graphic Artists, CAD Operators, Computer Programmers, Word Processor Operators, Technical Proofreaders et. al., responsible for putting these highly complicated books together, who take their responsibilities very seriously, thank you for your insulting remarks.
(Assuming the same 'rigid standards' exist in John's time frame. The truth is, these rigid standards are subject to changes locally on ALL documentation, and errors ABOUND in them. I see them every day and I KNOW FOR A FACT THEY EXIST WITH ERRORS. Please come down from your perfect world and join the rest of us in reality. My so-called insulting remarks are nothing compared to yours so far. I'm telling the truth, you're an example of someone in denial. As far as "lowest bidder - my ass" goes.. well, the lowest bidder who got the contract does follow whatever standards are in place at the time. However, the LOWEST BIDDER STILL GETS THE CONTRACT - so, they are thereby just as limited as anyone else, what with cost overruns, budget reductions to get rid of extra people on a job so they can make a profit and so forth. So don't give me any crap about it being "mil spec" because the government says so. I KNOW what the government requires, and I also know what gets past the technical writers as well.)
A typical cover/title page for any such manual SHOULD, by mil-specs and standards, resemble _something_ like this (see below), no two ways around it.
(Should, again according to YOUR specifications. Not to those in John's "Time Frame". I'm sorry but you're putting yourself further and further into a hole here. Remember - John is alledgely from 2036, a few years AFTER a nuclear war. I'm certain - I'm POSTIVE that people after such a thing are not going to adhere to YOUR standards simply because YOU say so.)
For the technical publication itself (including cover/title page), mil-spec requirements for everything (right down to the minimum card stock quality) include:
Fonts to be used, font sizes (in the point system used by publishers), text spacings, line spacings, margin widths, justifications (left, center or right, depending), decimal point lineups, how "figures" (illustrations, etc) are numbered and classified (not even present on the "document" in question, oh by the way), requirements for numbering of paragraphs (decimal system), page numbering system, character string identifiers required to be present at the bottom of each and every page (not even present on the "document" in question, oh by the way)...
...and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, AND ON, AD NAUSEUM are laid out in NUMEROUS SEPARATE GOVERNMENT MANUALS written specifically for contractors ON HOW TO WRITE THE TECH PUB that would have you going blind and pulling your hair out before you have read and learned it all.
(Technical manuals and technical orders are already difficult to read, they are so blasted difficult for the guys in the field they don't even use them. Truth be told, if I had to take out a manual to repair a radio, by following the instructions therein, I would not get it repaired. I set them aside and use my talents for troubleshooting before I would read one of YOUR technical manuals. ANYONE who has EVER used an Air Force Technical Order knows PRECISELY what I am talking about! So get off your high horse.)
Not to mention the fact that tech pubs are ALWAYS in a binder system to accommodate the insertion of the inevitable revisions and changes, and replacement of damaged pages. Where are the page holes if the pages were removed for copying?
(You're right, they are in binder systems. IF they are technical orders. However, guess what? The Army from 1932 through 1960-something published manuals in BOOKS. They weren't in binders. Guess what? They have started doing so again. Only the Air Force has a standard binder. Inevitable revisions and changes... you mean - AD NAUSEUM again, don't you? If there are prefect manuals out there, then why the hell are there so many changes all the time? Think about it... perfect manuals mean there should never be corrections - which is what almost EVERY SINGLE PAGE I'VE EVER FILED IN AN EXISTING MANUAL ARE THERE FOR! CORRECTIONS TO MISTAKES FOUND BY THE GUYS IN THE FIELD!!!!!!!!)
That cover page and content "evidence" for the "time machine" looks like it's from a high school book report! It's not even close to being in mil-spec compliance in any way shape or form. Dear God, when you go to work on Monday, lay your hands on a real technical publication - if you have the clearance to do so - and look at it. Examine the format carefully. How it's assembled. Notice the character string identifiers all over the place, etc., etc., etc.
( I never said it WAS A TIME MACHINE MANUAL. I never said it was in compliance with mil-spec either. I said I had experts looking at it. MY EXPERTS have since been appraised of this entire forum and are reading it. THEY tell me that not only is is POSSIBLE but " ... who knows what the technical standards for the future might be? I <the guy answering me> do not know one way or another, but my opinion is it isn't a time machine and isn't a real manual." Happy??? I don't know what your problem is, but I've got as many, if not MORE resources to ask about this stuff as you do. So back off. By the way.. you AND my folks only have a couple of pages, not the original manual. I defy ALL of you to make an accurate determination from a PHOTOCOPY that was THEN SCANNED into the computer on binding, or anything else! Not only can you NOT decide it isn't real, you can NOT DECIDE IT IS REAL.)
If you REALLY knew what the technical publications looked like for a high level device (system), you most certainly would have tossed this ridiculous "is he or isn't he" speculation out the window, oh, about 2 seconds after viewing the "time machine" pages, like I did.
(No, I wouldn't have done such a thing. Again, you're applying whatever mediocre standards of yourself to me. The difference between me and you is an open mind. Yours is obviously closed and you suffer a severe case of denial. I'm sorry for your security clearance, but when reality sets in, you will be safely out of the system and away from any government sites. Your most obvious problem is an ego the size of Seattle. Perhaps you need an Ego-quake to put you in your place.)
TYPICAL STYLE FOR TECH PUB COVER/TITLE PAGE
INCLUDING VARYING FONT SIZES: 24, 18, 14 & 8 POINT:
XX-XXX-XX-X (PUB # HERE)
VOLUME #/PART # REVISION#
(TYPE OF PUB HERE - MAINTENANCE,
(NOMENCLATURE OF EQUIPMENT HERE)
(NAME OF MANUFACTURER OF EQUIPMENT, AND GOVERNMENT CONTRACT NUMBER HERE)
(INSERT APPROX. 2-INCH SIZE "BRANCH OF SERVICE" SEAL HERE)
(SUPERCEDURE NOTICE HERE)
(SUPPLEMENT NOTICE HERE)
(DISCLOSURE NOTICE HERE)
(DISTRIBUTION STATEMENT INCLUDING RESTRICTIONS HERE)
(This is indeed similar to SOME manuals the government uses, but, it isn't similar at ALL to some that we use today. Matter of fact, I have several non-standard manuals that more conform to John's manual than to yours, but they are all classified and I can't even SHOW YOU the format. So put that in your pipe and smoke it with whatever else you're already smoking.)[Edited by Rick Donaldson on 03-24-2001 at 04:07 PM]
Posted by John Titor on 03-24-2001 06:19 PM
I will be leaving this worldline shortly and this will be my final post. There are only a handful of people who will know exactly when I will be leaving and I’m sure they will let you know when I’m gone.
In the last few days I have found your choice of topics quite interesting and from an objective viewpoint I think it collectively answers one of your own questions, “If time travel is real, where are all the time travelers?” In the past, I have stated that quite frankly, you all scare the Hell out of me and I’m sure other temporal drivers would feel the same. But now I have an expanded explanation with two examples.
A while ago (on one of the posts), I related an experience I had with my parents while we were driving down a highway. Every now and then, we would pass someone who was in obvious distress with their vehicle. I was amazed that so many people could pass them by without stopping to help. Their explanation was fear. The risk of helping someone was too great and with today’s technology, they probably had a cell phone anyway. If they didn’t, the walk to a gas station would be good for them and teach them a lesson for running out of gas.
The other example is the plight of the homeless. When you pass them as individuals on the street I see the way people selectively choose an alternate path to avoid them.
Those two examples best define why time travelers do not show themselves. In trying to help you, we put ourselves as great risk and there’s really no point to it. We know the nature of time dictates that traveling between “exact” worldlines is impossible. Therefore, the only results we will see will be the ones we stay to see. Since worldlines, outcomes and events are infinite, we have better things to do. When I arrive in the “new” 1998 worldline on my way home I could easily start all of this again and continue to go through the same conversations with all of the same people. However, I already know you won’t pay any attention or believe me because we’ve already been through it on this worldline. Besides, I think the walk to the gas station will do you some good.
The following are the last questions I saw before my “going home” post. I apologize for not being able to get to all of them.
((Do most of the people of that time die out, especially ones that currently have health problems?))
Yes, and people are still dying and a great deal of them are passing from CJD. As I said, with my very first few posts almost 6 months ago, I want to emphasize how devastating this will be. I believe two people are confirmed dead in Colorado from CDJ from surgical instruments. Ahhhh, the power of cheese. Milk does a body good and beef is what’s for dinner!
Me: “No, I have not tried any fast food. Thinking about where the food came from, how it was shipped and treated absolutely terrifies me. I have tried to tell people about CJD disease and it seems to be “catching on” in Europe.”
Me: Do not eat or use products from any animal that is fed and eats parts of its own dead.
Me: The “Mad Cow” story here is yet to begin...
((Is it possible that sometime in your future or in your present time that time travel will be commonplace?))
Yes, that is absolutely possible and eventual.
((Have any of the scientists of your time discovered any new planets, possibly ones with life?))
Not that I’m aware of.
((Has the bandwidth of the Internet increased greatly?))
((And finally, one last question...how did Texas fare during the war?))
Texas is still there but Spanish is a lot more popular.
((How does time travel affect our future (no pun intended) exploration of the universe? It seems that the greatest obstacles in our way right now are a matter of energy (propulsion technology) and economic feasibility. It seems to me that time travel technology could neatly takes care of both.))
There is a great deal of debate about trying to use a distortion unit to “travel” to the moon. The experiment would require very precise calculations that would allow the VGL system to find a theoretical path to the moon on a different worldline. The only problem is there is no way to communicate with anyone if the experiment should succeed. In other words, it’s possible to do it but only the people on the receiving end could take advantage of it.
((My oldest son wanted me to ask if you have any siblings.))
No, I am an only child.
((Also, are you still planning on broadcasting your departure via a broadcast over the Internet? That would be quite interesting.))
My father will be videotaping the departure. I appreciate Rick’s offer but my primary concern is the anonymity of my family. In addition, my departure will be in a somewhat public place and I do not want to draw additional attention to myself. At no fault of his own, I would also submit that Rick’s involvement would not add any credibility to the event.
((Is there still an NCAA basketball tournament in 2036, and if so, has it expanded from its current 64-team format?))
Yes, we still play basketball but I am not a fan and can’t comment on its organization.
((Interesting anyway, hoped you used some of the links.
Yes I did, thank you.
((You say that you wear some kind of flight suit like coveralls when you are time traveling and that you experience 2 g's for 6-8 hrs. How is it possible to withstand that kind of g-force for such a long period without the use of an anti-g suit?))
The average human can take 2 G’s without too much difficulty. Blackout occurs at about 8 or 9 Gs and redout occurs at negative 3 Gs.
((I know you must be physically trained for space travel, but you should also have the benefit of equipment to help you out.))
We are encouraged to stay physically fit.
In an effort to address Emmett’s comments, (and in all fairness) the following posts are out of context and not in order. If I’m not a real time traveler I would suggest that Emmett is at a disadvantage on his tactics to “expose” me.
If I present a picture of a sea monster to you and I claim it's real you are forced to argue its validity on the basis of the evidence that I present or create. Under these circumstances, you can’t win. If you look at the picture and argue that sea monsters should have more teeth or their incisors are not in proportion to the amount of fish they eat, it’s easy to ask you how you know so much about sea monsters if they don’t exist. Granted, you could point to dinosaur skeletons and make comparisons. But I can still say, its not a dinosaur, it’s a sea monster. In fact, I could even “whip” up some tooth marks on a piece of petrified wood and prove to you don’t know anything about sea monsters.
((I realize that you haven’t given “all of the technical details” of the device…so, the reparte has been fun. But your device, as described, simply won't work.))
If you don’t have all the details, how do you know it doesn’t work?
((Honestly, I’m not upset about any of this…and the only emotion involved for me is joy. This is fun! It really is.)
Emmett drew the following assumptions from our conversation and I don’t believe I said any of them.
((The universe that you described, that is, one where mass is accelerated to light speed and forms a singularity doesn’t exist.))
((1. As you accelerated to light speed in your machine you and your machine formed a black hole.))
((2. From your perspective as you accelerated to light speed every other object in the universe formed a black hole due to your relative velocities))
((Take a close look at the technical drawing. Look especially at the left and right end perspectives. Not the same - very poor quality CAD for a billion dollar project.))
A billion? How do you know it’s a CAD drawing?
((If you have contact with Boomer please attempt to verify the elapsed time (on his internal chronometer) for his trip from 2036 to 1975. I need that data for a calculation.))
The first leg takes me to 1998. I think I said that quite a few times.
((He also said that the mass of the singularities is that of a "small mountain".))
If that were true, the unit could not be moved. I only refrenced the mass of a small mountain in one of our physics conversations. In fact, I believe I said the mass for the singularities in the distortion unit was much smaller.
((The last time I checked the physics I didn't see an "on-off" switch for a black hole or any other singularity.))
Me neither. I don’t believe I said you could turn it on or off.
((At 2 g acceleration you will be traveling just a tad faster than a Chevy pick-up in short order (about one year to reach light speed).))
This is the one that really disappoints me. Even you should know that Einstein’s thought experiment in the isolated elevator was based on the idea that the effects of acceleration and gravity are the same. I never said acceleration had anything to do with how the unit operates.
((Does it really make sense that his handlers would authorize a personal vacation with their billion-dollar machine?))
I’m looking at my orders and I don’t see the word vacation on it anywhere. You had my hopes up for a moment. Interesting how quickly a billion-dollars has become a fact now.
((And, though he's never said that he hasn't let anyone else come close to the machine, who took the picture of his two hands in one of the photos?))
When did I say that? I’ll have to let Pamela explain the laser pointer picture. She may already have posted the email I sent earlier.
Here are a few other comments I found interesting:
((The answer to the question, "How does a person born in 1998 use the language...?" is - who knows?))
I agree. How would you know?
((The two yellow caution tapes on the device are misaligned. Sloppy workmanship.))
I’ll have to point that out to my “handlers” when I get back.
((I suppose that if you were interested in verification of Boomer's science that you could go right to the source, Dr. Frank Tipler, Tulane University, for an interview.))
He’s a very pleasant gentleman. I highly recommend his book, The Physics of Immortality. I believe I made reference to this earlier.
((…what would prevent we, the enemy state, from returning the machine to 2036 with a suitcase nuclear device onboard?))
This is the second time I've seen a reference to the unit as a weapon. I would submit that the people of this worldline have nothing to fear from me. What would you do with the unit?
((J.C. …I like the way Darby thinks))
Now there’s an endorsement.
For more information on black holes and sigularities, I did find this site.
In your opinion, what is the smallest mass that can form a singulairty? Even Hawking suggested primordial singularities were created at the Big Bang. Were there planets (or half planets) around to form them then?
Based on your ability to draw conclusions about someone’s profile from their typed words I find it hard to believe you would make such errors in the syntax and meaning of the exact same words. Unfortunately, you have now maneuvered yourself into a position where I have the last word and our debate must has come to an end. Boomer isn’t a bad name and I sort of like it. Thanks TarBaby.
((If there were an infinite number of realities, then there would necessarily arise a reality that somehow causes there to be no other realities. In fact, an infinite number of such realities would have to arise that cause there to be no other realities.))
Yes!! Excellent insight. I would have enjoyed a conversation on this.
I’m really going to miss my friend J.C. Although I did find a buried layer of truth and dedication in what his message was he never failed to make me smile in his attempt to make it. I couldn’t help but post a few choice comments he’s made over the last few months.
((Further more, my identity in the future would most likely be changed... Nevertheless, if you have been to the future, you know who I am. No doubt about that... ))
((Just start naming historical figures in your "time" or stop saying that you are a time traveler.))
((Hey, listen up... As a Time Traveler to the future my self, I have seen the uniforms. I have even put one on. Therefore, if TimeTraveler_0 <JOHN> can offer us a picture of his uniform as proof, I will verify it's legitimacy with the one I wore.))
((And about GW Bush, I don't know what to tell you. Although I have an uncle that looks like him.))
((How many times have I said to band Time Travel?))
(( And oh, that unknown variable, it's me. You didn't plan on encountering resistance. Especially a TimeTravelActivist. Hey this sounds more like something that would happen at the end of a Scobby Do cartoon. "You rotton kids..."))
(( So in retro-pects, I sense you have anger in me, for having morals and a sense of ethics on this issue of Time Travel.))
((What do you have to lose that you haven't already messed up already.))
((I mean no disrespect, but you don't seem to have the wisdom that I would expect someone from an advanced future would have. Your ideals are to liberal, much like in the 70's where things were all about Sex, drugs and free love. Nasty...))
((I have been trying not to attack anyone since my return. And look at you, you hypocrite. Calling me an "agitator."))
((Which is probably why so many people believe your story. But your not Anti-Time Travel like me. None of you have ever been manipulated by a Time Travelers plan for 21 years. Which is not to say they are, and you just don't know it.))
This one is my favorite.
((I'd just like to say, before John Titor, (A.K.A. TT_0 in the post where he's been taken out almost) that when he posts, he does a maneuver that focuses the question back to the receiver, as to have him think it's been answered, and to shut him up. (Which in fact, he just avoided answering it, by doing what he did). He does this very often, and I'd just wanted to point that out before he did it again.))
((By the way, not to be picky or anything. But I know how perfect you like to have things with your writing. I just wanted to point out that you misspelled CHOOSEN. It’s Chosen, with one O.))
((Some Yang will always exist to oppose some Ying.))
((A person doesn't have to be aggressive to be a @&^$#%. As you can tell, he's been using his superior intellect, to manipulate and control his agenda here. Or am I the only one who can see that?))
Here are a few other things I found in our general conversations which might be worth repeating:
Me: “By that time, it was pretty clear that we were not going back to what we had and the division between the “cities” and the “country” was well defined. My father made a living by putting together 12-volt electrical systems…”
I believe it was a few days ago I saw a news story about potential problems with power that “might” affect the entire United States. Where do you think they’ll turn it off first when push comes to shove?
Me: “ However, there are a great many “non lethal” weapon systems in development that turn out to be quite lethal.”
Anyone for microwave popcorn?
Me: If you push a farmer too far, they stop growing food and have nothing to do but hide in the woods and shoot back.”
Second Vermont Sheep Herd Seized
By Wilson Ring
Associated Press Writer
Friday, March 23, 2001; 10:42 a.m. EST
EAST WARREN, Vt. –– Federal agents early Friday seized a second flock of Vermont sheep suspected of having been exposed to a form of mad cow disease.
Friday, March 23 9:08 PM SGT
Britain extends culling of healthy animals to whole country
LONDON, March 23 (AFP) -
Britain stepped up its fight against foot-and-mouth disease Friday, announcing measures to slaughter animals throughout the country and not just in three targeted areas.
I also want to thank Pamela for helping me with the email and everyone else who asked intelligent and insightful questions. I have learned a great deal.
My parting thought revolves around something J.C. has been harping on since day one. No, I do not have a secret agenda but I have been paying a great deal of attention to your worldline. My interaction with you was not a direct mission parameter but it was a secondary mission protocol based on standing orders given to all temporal drivers. That secondary objective is basically to gather as much information about a worldline based on a set of observable variables when we first arrive. Your worldline met those conditions. What amazes me is why no one here wonders why Y2K didn’t hit them at all?
Bring a gas can with you when the car dies on the side of the road.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-24-2001 07:01 PM
Oh come on John, even in the end you still try to buy into people emotions in hopes that this will be their last chance to believe you. I feel sorry for those that do. Farewell John, but you only brought this upon your self. I was only asking the questions no one was asking.
P.S. you said you were out of Town, but I'll bet you were watching for a few days since you been back. You won't be leaving till the 11th of April. Am I to believe you will still keep watching?
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-24-2001 07:12 PM
Ahh my hypothetical comments to you. I almost forget about them. Seems to me like a crawling maneuver. Last chance to get me back for all those months of asking the questioning no one was asking, uhh ? You sound bitter John. Bitter that the end didn’t come the way you expected?
Don’t be a sore loser, and leave slapping and whining. That’s just not what a future major does? Or is it ? Have a nice life John. I mean that, sincerely I do. I just regret you couldn’t have been sincere as well.[Edited by Javier Cortez on 03-24-2001 at 07:15 PM]
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-24-2001 07:37 PM
John - I said this in another thread. Good luck, where ever you might end up... and no matter what time line it happens to be.
I do not believe for a second that you're going anywhere in a time machine, and as a matter of fact, my observation of said departure WOULD lend credibility to your story. You don't have any IDEA how much credibility it would add. Some people do understand that, but, unfortunately, the one who needs to understand it, doesn't. Such is life, and missed opportunities.
If you ARE a time traveler - and you DO go back to 1998, I'm more than willing to listen to you then, as I am now. If you forward that email to me in that year, you can bet your ass on the fact, I will post it. That means it will show up on my web site after you depart our time line. With the right dates on the file name.... I'm making a note to myself to look for it.
If it does not show up... then you aren't what you said you were.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-24-2001 08:01 PM
Well, as I understand it, there are still people alive, including everyone looking or involved. So, we all have to live it!
This makes such a topic 'picky'. (Emotionally Inebriated).
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-24-2001 08:06 PM
Well, as I understand it, there are still people alive, including everyone looking or involved. So, we all have to live it!
This makes such a topic 'picky'. (Emotionally Inebriated).
A little humor, my feeling, if you can not, then be prepared for a world that's could be quite terrible.
Most of the time, whether anyone will agree or not, people usually get what they wish for, but in a form, that may not be agreeable with the viewpoint of the person making the wish.
Make sure you really are knowing what you are really wishin' for.
And you may want to break apart the 'chicken bone' before there is none left.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-24-2001 08:30 PM
Well Rick, it’s good to understand how much respect and influence people here think you have. Just make sure you use that responsibly, and try and see both sides of an issue. Or else, we may end up bumping heads in a many discussions. After all, I have mentioned time after time, how much I dislike opportunist and those that exploit people.
But personally, I respect you, and think you can be as much a passionate person like my self when it comes to certain issues.
Just a tad disappointing how much you endorse John like you do… Or brown nosing? Either way, John is gone now. What he’s left behind will be people’s gospel. Sad but true. Well, it’s a good thing this board has a TimeTravelActivist . To ensure that the other side that never gets talked about, does.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-24-2001 08:31 PM
John, you scare the 'heck' out of us. And this 'connection timed out' is really scary, and its not even Halloween.
Can I post a message without it double posting because of this, can I, can I?
Posted by Lola Montez on 03-24-2001 08:32 PM
Bye John, it's been grand.
Thanks for starting a thread that has been amusing, thought provoking and a darn good read. I have met many people here that I like and hope to meet again on other boards.
Here's hoping you make good time,
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-24-2001 09:36 PM
Bye, bye John. Going to another worldline to show this stuff?
The Beginning of Time
Welcome to Professor Stephen Hawking's website.
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-25-2001 12:03 AM
Explanation of laser picture:
The machine is in the back and that is a picture of John's instructor demonstrating how the machine effects the light beam while on low power. you can see it bending the beam.
The cigar smoke was blown on the lasar beam to cause the beam to be seen better. John was in the drivers seat and took the picture. His instructor was in the passenger seat.
goodbye my friend...safe journey home.
perhaps we shall meet again??
In another Time, another Place...and the journey continues.......................
I will think of you everytime I see a rainbow.
your friend throughout time,
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-25-2001 12:12 AM
Actually that laser looks more like a bent red wire to me. But I guess everyone believe it’s a bent laser, and that the cigar smoke is to make it be seen well.
What do you mean good-bye? You know your one of the select few he’s keeping in touch with until he leaves . So John is a real Time Traveler according to you now?
-J.C.[Edited by Javier Cortez on 03-25-2001 at 12:24 AM]
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-25-2001 01:44 AM
John's document can be seen here. I feel it is important to be viewed before the 26th.
I suggest viewing it right away...
never know how long it will be up before it cannot be viewed anymore for "mysterious" reasons.I am sorry it was not available to be seen when it was given to me.
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-25-2001 07:20 AM
Nationwide Assurance is not a mistake on the document.
I had never heard of it before and researched it i always heard of Nationwide insurance. but i did research it and found that this insurance agancy does exist.
This is from here: http://www.bestreview.com/2000-06/corporatechange.html (about half way down) Colonial Insurance Company of Wisconsin (Madison, Wis.), Columbus, Ohio. Effective April 30, the title was changed to Nationwide Assurance Co.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-25-2001 10:17 AM
This thread may or may not contain hazards to your health.
It may or may not already contain radioactive material.
This warning has been placed here for your protection.
Before use, read the instructions.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-25-2001 12:02 PM
Javier: Well Rick, it’s good to understand how much respect and influence people here think you have. Just make sure you use that
responsibly, and try and see both sides of an issue. Or else, we may end up bumping heads in a many discussions. After all, I have
mentioned time after time, how much I dislike opportunist and those that exploit people.
Rick: Javier - I am not now, nor have I ever been an opportunist. I don't like them either. Also - let me say this about respect, and even influence. Those are things that people have to earn. I earn mine with my family, grandkids, work and in general with my friends. I don't have to work hard at it. I'm honest and I mean something when I say it. I don't insult people - not on purpose, and I certainly do not go around talking down to them. As far as bumping heads, I don't think you and I are very far off on our thinking. I just approach it in a vastly different way than you do.
Javier: But personally, I respect you, and think you can be as much a passionate person like my self when it comes to certain issues.
Rick: Thanks. I think.
Javier: Just a tad disappointing how much you endorse John like you do… Or brown nosing? Either way, John is gone now. What he’s left
behind will be people’s gospel. Sad but true. Well, it’s a good thing this board has a TimeTravelActivist . To ensure that the other
side that never gets talked about, does.
Rick: Let's get something very clear. I've not endorsed anyone for anything here. I am NOT endorsing John, or you, Ernie Vega, Pamela, or anyone else. Can you not make any comments with you lowering yourself to insulting people? (i.e. "Brown nosing"). Is that what you think life is all about? Seeing how 'witty' and 'smartassed' you can be? It isn't. There is a very old saying that goes "You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar". It was true in my Great Grandmother's day, and it is true today. John is gone, but certainly not forgotten. His words are not "gospel" to anyone. No one here is the "sheep" you called them before. I personally am insulted at that term applied equally to everyone as you have done in the past. A sheep is someone who blindly follows, believes for no other reason than they feel they must. The people here not only are intelligent (some are outwardly brilliant) but they are thinking people who have considered as much of this material as they could get their hands on before making any rash statements about "following someone". I've not seen anyone here do that. I'm sure you've felt that Pamela is one of those sheep. The problem is, Javier, you don't know her personally (neither do I), but apparently she has seen some material we have not. That gives her the right to believe whatever she wishes. Not only that, if I had been there and actually seen a time machine, and then watched as it left - I too would believe it. My own eyes rarely lie to me.
But - I wouldn't expect anyone here to believe ME because I SAID it happened. I could just as well be lying about it too. However, I would tell the truth of what I saw, and let you make the decision for yourself whether you wanted to trust what I said or not. I wouldn't insult you for not believing me. I do see, and understand both sides of this story.
What John has left behind will be debated by both sides for some time to come. I venture to guess a few months. No more, and like other things on the internet it will fade away and be forgotten. You're young, almost 21 -right? You will for get this in time and it will be just one other feather in your cap that you can say "I won the debate. The time traveler couldn't prove himself to me, so I win".
Javier, my friend, that isn't what this was about. John placed some information before us for debate. Not for attack. A good argument isn't about attacking the other side, a good argument brings out all the good and bad points both sides have, and it allows the spectators to make a decision regarding the data. To many of us for too long have been exposed to the media in this country where a good arguemnt is a good attack, along with mudslinging and dirt. Debates should not include barbarous attacks, name calling, mud slinging or calling into question a person's integrity (unless everything being stated is a lie - but you've got to PROVE IT IS A LIE). Nothing here can ever be construed to have been a lie. Nor, on the other hand can we believe it is the truth at this point. We're precisely where we were when we started!
The person who attacked me in private was too cowardly to come forth and post their information here on the board - so I did it for them. They were right about certain things - about manuals and about the way things are accomplished in the government - with one caveat... nothing is perfect, especially manuals produced by contractors for the government. Neither are proceedures, and certainly neither are the arguments that you and I have put forth. But they didn't prove anything by their statements, any more than I have (which I think is what upset me the MOST with the personal attack in email. I wasn't trying to PROVE anything, I was making a simple, and TRUTHFUL statement about government manuals. Someone just took it personally!)
John has not proven anything. But worse still, because of the lack of information, NONE of us has proven one thing. You have not proven he is not a time traveler. I haven't proven one way or the other he is a time traveler. John did not prove he was.
I can only say from the number of hits on the thread that the discussion was good, and there was some intelligence placed here in this thread that I hope at leasts makes Keith Rowland, his wife and Art Bell proud. Some of the people I've discussed this subject with, offline, have told me that the BBS was being checked out by some government folks - mostly tongue in cheek - to see if there might be some truth to what John said. They have pulled pictures from my site as well as Doc's orginal site and examined them for anything they could get.
The one thing that leaves me in doubt about the entire episode is the picture of the time machine. I have contacted people in several fields and sent the picture along for examination. It is 1) a home built device or 2) it is exactly what it seems at this point.
No one can identify the object as being anything else produced in the past so far. What I'm getting at is this device doesn't match any pre-2001 military equipment. At least not that we've been able to locate so far. I've got some experts on this too, folks who *I* believe when they tell me something. So, if one comes through and finds out what this thing is, I will certainly let everyone know.
Until then, it remains inconclusive in my eyes. Personally, I would like to believe John.. for several reasons.
I want to believe time travel is possible, but more importantly, I want to believe John's stories of his history - and to look for ways to change things on our time line BEFORE THOSE THINGS COME TO PASS.
My job has been and always will be to help the human race go forward - never backward. If I can find ways to stop a nuclear war, I certainly will do so. However, if I can't and it comes to a Civil War - I will always fight on the side of Freedom. Always. I always have, and I certainly always will.
The human race does not depends on me, nor Javier, nor John. It depends on the collective concious of the entire planet full of people to do the right thing. Sometimes, those who are misguided do the wrong thing and take down with them thousands of people. WE are here, in the here and now, regardless of whether John is a time traveler. His interaction with us has changed NOTHING. His leaving changes NOTHING.
What WE DO from now on out however, will make all the difference in the world for our histories. Keep that in mind as you (Javier) continue your investigation and being a "Time Cop".
Rick[Edited by Rick Donaldson on 03-25-2001 at 12:20 PM]
Posted by Mel Reckling on 03-25-2001 12:32 PM
Hey John, you said you haven't tried any of our fast food. Why don't you take one of them Arby's Roast "Beef" sandwiches back to 2036 and see if any of the great brains of the future can figure out what it's made of. It beats the heck out of me.
I hope I echo the sentiments of the other peoples on this post when I say we'll miss y'all.
May the "Winds of Time" be always at your back.[Edited by Mel Reckling on 03-25-2001 at 12:34 PM]
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-25-2001 02:04 PM
Bravo Rick, Bravo. Beautiful and inspirational as always regardless of your intent or not.
I understand your points. But does anyone understand mine? You said that this does not depend on you, John, or me but on everyone’s collective conscious. What do you think I am here for? If everyone’s collective thinking goes to 1 side, then I and the rest of the minority get screwed. And then Time Travel someday will be used to use the past in whatever the future dictates. I cannot allow that.
I want peace and freedom as much as you do. But not when the other side gets ignored. I’m sorry that it hurts some people, but they have to know. They have to know that another alerternative way of looking at it exists. And that’s what I will continue doing. Hopefully we can try and see eye to eye in the next few months as this thread continues.
And no, this will not fade in my life. As long I shall live, I will in someway or another fight to keep people free and make sure those that exploit others get the justice that they deserve.
P.S. What does that Final Proof suppose to prove Pamela? That he’s a real Time Traveler? Maybe it means that they need the updated information by 3-26-01. Anyone think of that? I get a bunch of bills with dates ahead; even my insurance is like that.
Just asking the questions, no one is asking…
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-25-2001 02:24 PM
((I get a bunch of bills with dates ahead; even my insurance is like that. ))
If you notice on the bottom it says...mail immediately, and then it says suspended efffective 4/25/01 (future date.)allow 2 weeks processing.
well, has anyone here ever got a notice like that from the highway safety and motor vehicles (from Florida)that can verify if this is a date due or the date that it is written? lets investigate it and see.....
Posted by Randy Empey on 03-25-2001 03:02 PM
If there is nothing else you take away from this thread, I hope the one thing you do 'get' is that uncertainty runs rampant and certainty may not exist.
quote:I understand your points. But does anyone understand mine?
Are you really 100% sure you understand all of Rick's points? Are you really certain that it is a reasonable expectation to want someone to completely understand yours? Are you certain you understand what I am getting at here?
If you answer yes, I suggest to you that you are either jumping to conclusions or have a tremendous gift.
While thier references to your age may feel like a 'under the belt' hit, it does have some merit ... and, being about 21 myself, I freely admit that I think I understand more things than I really do ... and am probably an obnoxious little gnat compared to my elders ...
But I can still 'have a whack at it' and hopefully grow in the process.
I hope you do the same ...
There are no dragons or windmills here to slay ... no fair maidens to rescue ... and John Titor Cult ... but there might be some ideas and modes of thought worth the reading.
But thanks for presenting your side of some of the moral issues here -- it did create some beneficial exchange, at least in my little world.
I might be objecting to your words because of some unconcious bias or assumptions rather than the irrationallities, offensiveness, et. al I think I percieve -- sorry for those parts of wavefunctions invovled where this is the case.
Rick (and others that know, of course):
In the titor 2036 thread, there is material presented that is drawn from another forum/website ... I'd like more information on extra-bbs.artbell.com examples of Titors words -- where they are and why we are sure enough that it was this same dude that has created this phenomenon to warrant thier consideration... things of that nature ...
Now that I think, perhaps this question should best be asked in that other thread, were it not for the fact that extra-bbs.artbell.com examples were refrenced here also ...
Are there any more threads spawned by this one out there now or in the making, besides Ricks promising one?
-- Randy E.
P.S. -- I will NOT apologize for the liberal use of words outside of thier standard usage: ie 'wavefunctions', etc ...
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-25-2001 03:34 PM
((If you notice on the bottom it says...mail immediately, and then it says suspended efffective 4/25/01 (future date.)allow 2 weeks processing.))
That doesn’t mean when it’s expected, it means when it’s suspended if not received by then. Which could be the date 3-26-01.
Posted by Alexander A.Shpilman on 03-25-2001 03:42 PM
"...At 2 g accelleration you will be traveling just a tad faster than a Chevy pick-up in short order (about one year to reach light speed."
Probably, 2g is not usually acceleration of movement. Probably, its movement at strong deformation of space - time.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-25-2001 03:46 PM
You’re always making uncertainly examples, when people tell you that they’re sure of something. For example, my favorite “Can you prove anything” and now “Are you really 100% sure…”
Yes Randy I am sure. If I said I understand Rick’s points, then I do. I don’t know why dig deeper then that. I know what I know, because I am a sincere person and because I have experience in what I speak of. Therefore, I am sure. That answer your questions?
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-25-2001 04:05 PM
your wasting your time talking about it.
and guessing what it could or couldnt be.
you can find out about this.
get some sources and investigate it yourself.
Posted by Alexander A.Shpilman on 03-25-2001 04:18 PM
((Albert, it is interesting that you mentioned "StarGate." That was one of my favorite movies. I thought of that right away when they spoke of sending a bomb back to John's lab.))
I think, probably spontaneous returning TTer back in due time, without the machine of time.
What will be, if all atoms of a bomb (after explosion) spontaneously will return back to own time and in a point which its have abandoned in an own flow of time?
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-25-2001 04:25 PM
Since when has speculation been a waste of time for you? Nevermind… That’s good that your investigating it though, because it would confirm if your friend is a fraud or the real thing. I commend you on your efforts. If you find out anything, do let us know .
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-25-2001 04:43 PM
I expect you to be investigating it as well!
You may not trust my results or word.
You have not really shown any support so far for me and my efforts.
So you have to investigate as well.
Find out the truth for yourself....
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-25-2001 05:11 PM
Here is the response from John from email:
"It's a perfectly normal notice from the state of Florida informing me that the insurance will run out or has run out. Since the truck won't be here much longer, there is no need to have it insured. I sent it as a tounge-in-cheek example of what people need to see or want to see in order to believe something. They don't believe a time machine exists but they will believe the insurance on the vehicle has run out."
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-25-2001 05:35 PM
Forgive me Pamela if I have not shown you support or given you credit where it’s due. I know you to be a smart and resourceful young lady . And I will investigate from now on. So what number in Florida should I call to verify? Can I get a claim number or something to go on? Or will that expose John’s current residence? Maybe I can click on one of those ads Art Bell has for a Private Investigator ?
Well to tell you the truth, I’m kind of short on cash at the moment, and since your already doing the investigating, why don’t we just wait and see what you turn up ? Plus I too am leaving in 2 weeks, so I’m already going to be working on a tight time frame. I hope you understand…
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-25-2001 07:26 PM
Randy said: Rick (and others that know, of course):
In the titor 2036 thread, there is material presented that is drawn from another forum/website ... I'd like more information on
extra-bbs.artbell.com examples of Titors words -- where they are and why we are sure enough that it was this same dude that has
created this phenomenon to warrant thier consideration... things of that nature ...
Now that I think, perhaps this question should best be asked in that other thread, were it not for the fact that extra-bbs.artbell.com
examples were refrenced here also ...
Are there any more threads spawned by this one out there now or in the making, besides Ricks promising one?
Randy, I posted the link to that stuff somewhere down the list.. after the first few "predictions". I'm not sure where precisely, but it is there. It was a news article by someone named Gary... Gary something, dont remember right now. Anyway, it was posted long before this thread ever was started and several people had referred to it privously so I included it in the "predictions list".
Just for a short explanation of that list, understand I am reading his material, verbatium, and taking statements DIRECTLY from it, not out of context or anything else. Just taking statements and examining the verbage for something that indicates he is "looking at the past". For him, as a time traveler, it would be "past history". For us, it becomes future, and that is why I am calling it predications.
While John would not knowingly make anyone happy with a direct prediction, I pointed out somewhere early on, that he had already done so (not in those words). He did tell someone else "I've not made any predictions". That certainly was not true from my point of view.
I hope everyone can understand this. They are predications, by the very fact that he stated them as "past tense as he knew it".
Anyway.. that is the only other information I've read. There was one other web site, with a thread by TTO_0? or something like that, who we now know was John as well. I do not have that material at my disposal. I think the site is down as well.
Other than this thread, and the one I started, those are the only ones. And all of the data I had, is available to you if you simply capture it like I did, and go to that one site.
Hope this answers your question.
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-25-2001 09:00 PM
(It was a news article by someone named Gary... Gary something,)
His name is Gary Voss. A very intelligent engineer.
I met him on "thetimetravelinstitute.com" site as well. he broke off and formed a group called TAP-TEN after a strange encounter ,which merged with Doc's Magisystem. currently looking into time theory and gravitational theories. I beleive his current theories are based on vortex theories.
and he is working closely with a very intelligent man named Edwin Schasteen who is in the marines. Tap-Ten has a small group of members .They all contribute their ideas to each other to build projects.
he may even be reading this site as well.....
from Gary's web site:
((- T.A.P. "Temporal Accelerator Project" T.E.N. "Temporal Explorers Network"
T.A.P.-T.E.N. is a Non-Profit Organization that involves a majority of their research in the exploration of Time~Travel, Gravity Displacement, Unified Field Inertia & Electrostatic Propulsion, To the exploration of examining possible methods of the absorption & extraction techniques, to harness unlimited free energy sources, by utilizing a sophisticated combination of merging yesterdays technology, with today's modern high tech computer aided technological forces all under one roof.
Our members consists of a broad range of ordinary people from all walks of life, some of them are still in college, while others are college professors, scientists, physicists, computer technicians, or those who like to dabble in the electronics arena in their professions, to their garages & basements at home.)))
If he is....Hi Gary! hahaaha
TTO is also Timetraveler_0,that is the name he went by on the timetravelinstitute. web site and I knew him as John back then but he didnt use that name on that forum. So at the time I kept that to myself. most all of his postings are found under "timetravel paradoxes" and "topics limited to 11 pages?" on that forum.John and TTO and Timetravler_0 is all the same person I believe he said that on this site at one time. I just dont remember which page.
Rick, the site you are talking about is actually a cut and paste That Gary put on that site from the timetravelinstitute site. I think most ,if not all, of Those questions originally came from emails between me and John. I was the one asking the questions and John was answering.and I posted them on the forum. Gary simply picked certain questions and answers off of the forum and put them together and put it on that other site. because he thought it was interesting.which it was.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-25-2001 09:16 PM
Hey Gary if you are reading this, just know I'm glad to see your T.A.P.-T.E.N. is still going strong .
Take care man,
P.S. Was it this year in Vegas, or next year ?
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-25-2001 09:19 PM
The convention is THIS year in Vegas ,around October last time I heard.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-25-2001 09:52 PM
Can I still come? I promise I'll be good .
Maybe just a little gambling and a few shows, that's it, I swear .
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-25-2001 10:33 PM
Do you promise not to break any of the inventions?
even if one happens to be a time machine?
hmmmmm....we better install a metal detector at the door if you are coming.
....and armed guards around each individual invention.
....and closed circuit cameras.
...and assign each inventor a personal body guard.
...better rope off all the inventions and put them behind bullet proof glass.
...take a head count before and after the convention.
...hmmm are you sure you want to come? this could get quite expensive for Gary. heheeh
-pamela[Edited by Pamela Moore on 03-25-2001 at 10:44 PM]
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-25-2001 11:53 PM
Like Rick said, you do analysing with facts and knowledge. It does not make any difference what personal opinion you hold, that would get everyone nowhere. Maybe its a well thought scenario of what could happen, and one can not tell.
But, we do have certain attitudes in this country that do not help with anything with some people, if that is the case then perhaps some can watch others in action. I certainly welcome Rick in doing what he is doing. Everything can be faked up to a point, but intelligent discussion will help keep everything focused for all. Contrary to public opinion, it does not make anyone 'act' a certain way to cause the 'event'. Fore-knowledge becomes a great advantage if done properly. And after all, that may just be what this thread is about, obtaining some fore-knowledge to help everyone or anyone make a better decision.
That may take some patience. I also have notified someone else that may 'look' into it somewhat, but I doubt that he would have the 'resources' of Rick, so I thank Rick for doing as much as he is doing on this. Plus some events are 'happening' now, mad-cow stuff to start, and I know that it was posted earlier than the news came out. If the Government has been keeping 'track' of this as stated at the Website, than more 'effort' may have to be involved.
If the Government, which is slow to some degree, can not move faster, then certain things can happen, such as an epidemic, the likes of which may become 'unstoppable'.
If that happens, more people will be called in to be sure, and everyone will get a 'rude awakening' call to this type of epidemic. But have I made a prediction knowing how humans 'operate' in this country. No. Citizens will respond that need too, and everyone else listens to 'it' on the news. Some people say 'if it does not affect me, who cares'.
Well, with this kind of 'stuff' it ends up affecting everyone.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-26-2001 12:05 AM
I might say that he already mentioned 'mad-cow disease', and both as a 'scare' tactic and as a 'concerned' citizen.
You can bet that other people are keeping the 'evil' eye or the 'good' eye or both on this also.
Saying what if can help. If John is also a TT, so what.
What he brought up were 'plausible' events.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-26-2001 12:13 AM
I can see why there would be much concern . But I know better then to break other people’s property. Plus it’s not like anyone will be having a working Time Travel Device. And if there where, I would be conflicted in how to react. For you see, for the past 3 years now I have known Time Travel to be an unethical means of traveling. Where I must alone at times speak out about it, and try and get my own feelings into harmony at the same time.
Because for the past 18 years of my life, I have always wanted to Time Travel to the past and to the future, and change things to my liking. Since I would always feel that I could Time Travel, intense sensations and visions. Made me feel that someday I will.
I was young; I didn’t know what I was saying about wanting to become a Time Traveler. Later in life, I found out that I was only being a pawn for something later in my life. And that those behind it all, were Time Travelers. I am reformed in my thinking, and know for a fact that Time Travel is exploitation and carries many hidden agendas when carried out.
I don’t expect anyone to believe me; I don’t like talking about this. But perhaps it could give a little insight into just who I am. And why am I so serious in the subject of Time Travel?
Anyway’s Pamela, I guess I got a little carried away there. To truly answer your question, yes I will behave . I’m to young to get arrested for breaking people’s things. I have a lot to do with my life, and a lot of evil to bring to justice.
Posted by Randy Empey on 03-26-2001 08:13 AM
Does that answer my question? Why need you ask, if you are so certain?
Was it meant to be an answer? That it was meant to be an answer is my only requirement for it to be considered an answer, although it could very well prompt further questions.
Am I really ALWAYS making uncertainty examples when people tell me that they are sure of something? I acknowledge such a tendency --- but ALWAYS? Hmmm......
If you say it then it must be so? "So sayeth Pharoah ...." So, do your words determine the nature of your reality?
Why dig deeper? To uncover hidden treasure that would perhaps change your mind, or the strong foundation that would perhaps indicate the validity of the surface indications.
Are sincerity and experience the only reasons you are sure you know what you know? Why are they enough?
When I get this line of thought formed a little clearer in my mind, perhaps it will prompt an 'entirely different' thread -- I hope you bump in to such a thread in the future.
But here, in this forum -- has your experience here changed your opinions about TT and TTers in general (or at least folk who claim such mantles ...), Javier?
It does answer my questions ... and prompts a few more ... you might run into them on that other thread if I can remember to get over there. But the short version is: Are they indications of what will be or may be? And can they really be termed predictions if they were not intended to be such?
Now that John has left the thread (Or has he? ), does this thread have a fruitful future ahead of it, in terms of additional postings? Any PREDICTIONS? (Hey Rick, maybe John left a hint about this?)
Or are we just going to have to decide whether we want it to and work towards that end?
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-26-2001 09:48 AM
Well - he's gone.
Now, while he was here did anyone do any research on Tipler's sinusoid to see what it really is? Just the definition of a sinusoid would give you a clue that there's no reason to travel back to 1975 or that he has to wait for some proper time for a window to open to return. The Tipler sinusoid has layers - forward zone, reverse zone, forbidden zone, neutral zone. They may even glow. Our brave adventurer enters the zones from an almost parallel vector, travels around the cylinder and experiences a closed timelike curve. Boomer's idea of lining up two micro-singularities is a start, but its not enough. How about lining up a few hundred neutron stars at a La Grange point far out in inter-galactic space where the gravitational fields of other galaxies don't effect the system. Now you have a (possible) Tipler cylinder. (You also need to align their poles so they are all spinnng in the same direction and at the same RPS.) Making a tiny "Tiplette" cylinder, such as Boomer's device, might allow hydrogen molecules to experience closed timelike curves, but not a Chevy pick-up.
SO - Boomer, so long for now. We'll see you again...[Edited by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-26-2001 at 09:54 AM]
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-26-2001 01:28 PM
Thanks, Emmett, and Rick, for debating with John. I think it takes quite a leap to go from theory of a supposed design to a practical working design, even if for awhile it sounds good.
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-26-2001 02:12 PM
Thanks for the post.
I think that in all fairness to Boomer that I should point out that in the most general sense what he has proposed here isn't so far off base that its not worth the debate. For instance, we all know by now that Dr. Frank Tipler is a real person and a Professor of Mathematics & Physics at Tulane University. He did postulate a theory of a time machine in the mid-70's that involves his Tipler cylinder.
It would have served Boomer well to have simply opened the thread as a "what-if". Tipler is currently involved with the "Proposed Propulsion Workshop" along with thirty or so really brilliant people. You should check out their work. They really are looking into "warp-drive" engines and other methods of "violating" the SR "light speed barier". What they are looking into, specifically, is how to build a working spaceship propulsion unit that can travel to the stars! In their research criteria they have even allowed for theories that have not passed "Peer Review". They are cutting edge risk takers - and funded by NASA in part. You can see notes from their first meeting at:
Its well worth the time to check it out and follow the investigative leads that are there to get an idea of where we are headed as we really do move toward 2036.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-26-2001 02:27 PM
Javier: Because for the past 18 years of my life, I have always wanted to Time Travel to the past and to the future, and change things to my liking. Since I would always feel that I could Time Travel, intense sensations and visions. Made me feel that someday I will.
Rick: Javier - shame on you. haha. I can see very clearly where that is going. Let me give you an analogy. I carry a weapon most everywhere I go. No one sees it. I carry it for various reasons, but in the past I've been attacked and my life has been threatened. I do not take kindly to folks doing that, and intend to keep myself mentally as well as physically prepared to defend myself if I must. I won't hesitate to do so if attacked. Now... why I am telling you this.
There are people out there, who feel because *I* carry a gun, I am a danger to everyone around me. At this point in my life, the only people I've ever shot at were those who shot first at me. And I've only ever drawn my weapon ONCE when a prowler was around the backyard. He turned out to be a Cop who'd not identified himself. But, the point of this.. the people who think that I am a danger because I carry a gun do so out of fear.
They think that because if THEY HAD A GUN, THEY WOULD GET MAD AND PULL IT OUT in an altercation in a car (road rage). They equate me, to them. But Javier, I am not them. They are not me. Perhaps they WOULD pull out a gun if they had one and shoot someone. Anyone who feels this shouldn't carry one.
If you haven't considered the possibilities of carrying a gun, and the ramifications of having to use one in self-defense, you shouldn't carry one.
By the same token, if you believe that you would take a time machine and abuse the power it might give you - that is, changing things to the way YOU like them, then you should not now, or ever travel back in time, even if it is possible.
That I believe is what John was saying about "psychologically sound". If I am to be on a rescue mission with the military, and it would entail killing others to save some... I TOO would get my chance to go through psychological evaluation. If I could not pull the trigger on the bad guys, I would not be going on that trip. By the same token, those who do not understand human life, and what living - and dying, is about, should not put themselves in the position of defending themselves (sometimes, they simply have no choice but to do so though).
Finally, if you had your hands on a time machine, you would definately abuse it. Therefore, you are doing what we call in the psychological arena - Transference. Just like the antigunners do with me.
You're transfering the 'evilness' of a time machine to someone other than yourself, because deep down, you KNOW YOURSELF YOU WOULD abuse it!
So - now we have discovered something in this forum after all... The psychological make up of a time cop! hahaha
(Sorry Javier, I COULDN'T resist... well, that isn't true, I didn't try to resist
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-26-2001 02:53 PM
Randy:It does answer my questions ... and prompts a few more ... you might run into them on that other thread if I can remember to get over there. But the short version is: Are they indications of what will be or may be? And can they really be termed predictions if they were not intended to be such?
If you mean, specifically, the things in the other thread... Consider for a moment you're a time traveler. You go back to, say 1800. People talk to you in the local tavern and you tell them stories of the future, but promise yourself not to give away anything specific.
In your quest to do so, you attempt to keep dates vague, and never mention names like Alexandar Graham Bell, Tesla, Ford, President Hoover... nothing like that. Instead you're vague and you mention there are two world wars by the time 2000 comes around. You even tell them the years they started, but nothing specific about the dates, or who started them or how. You might mention an "evil man in Germany". You might mention things like the Gulf War. You might talk about going to the moon, but not Mars. You might talk about the industrial revolution - which really begins roughly around 1900. One hundred years from the date of your visit. You mention cars, even specific kinds of cars with internal combustion engines and that they use refined oil out of the ground to power them. You might mention atomic weapons.
In all your talk, NONE of these things are specific enough to tell someone about the future except in vague terms, right? Let's see what I just wrote (all off the top of my head).
1) World War 1
2) World War 2
3) Gulf War
4) Man goes to moon
5) Man does NOT go to Mars
6) The industrial revolution starts around 1900
7) You said you own a <insert car type here>
8) Something better than steam... internal combustion.
9) Oil comes from the ground. Wow, they make money using it!
10) Oil is refined into petrol.. gasoline.
11) Six guns aren't gonna be the gun of the future, atomic weapons with the power of exploding volcanoes (something even the normal crowd in 1800 probably wouldn't know much about).
In other words, in a simply, unassuming conversation such as what John had with us - and again assuming he is really a time traveler - tells us a LOT of information.
This my friend is what we call intelligence gathering.
If I take 60 news papers from around the world and I read everything in them, I will gather more intelligence in the time I read those papers then you will from watching television for a couple of days.
Our own intel gathering forces in the US do precisely what I've just described. *I* gather intelligence in the same manner, without contacting "official intel sources". The point is, each and everyone of us has a better chance of knowing as much as the CIA knows, if we put our minds to it.
So, what I have done with the "intelligence" I've gathered is to simply take it apart, precisely as he stated it. Now, we have two possibilities.
He is a time traveler.
He is not a time traveler.
Applying logic (which of course is difficult without a known truth) you can get the possibilities of the future based on the presumption he is from the future. Plus or Minus a 2.5% deviation (his numbers, not mine).
If you assume he is NOT a time traveler, then it is moot. None of this will come true - at least not in the order he said or the dates, or times. In truth, there is roughly a 25% chance of ANYTHING coming true if you predict it. That is statistically probale. If you make a prediction, you can count on the fact it will probably come true, eventually, but you have only a 25% chance of making a guess - a stab in the dark. Experiments in the paranormal hold this to be true. In about 1973 and 74 I participated in ESP and telepathy experiments. I was hitting 60-80 percent accuracy. I have reason to believe that there is some kind of Extrasensory perception that exists. I wouldn't count on it - but I certainly DO listen to that little voice inside my head that says "Do not turn here, turn at the next block". If I don't something almost always happens that I didn't want to have happen. Will I go out and say that there IS DEFINATELY ESP? No... because I only know for sure what I know, and can't prove it. I don't expect others to believe me.
Does John Titor exist? I can't even be sure he does. I'm pretty positive John exists, and John Titor might or might not be his real name. It might simply be another nom de plume - pen name. In either case, he exists as SOMEONE and has been posting messages. All the messages, from the language, dialect and wording (including consistent misspellings) come from the same guy - at leats in my opinion.
If I had to guess, I would say John is very similar to what - I think Darby said - and that his background is similar in some respects as mine. Some military service of some sort, and he has a degree of patience that would escape me quickly. So - I have to make SOME assumptions to place this information/intelligence in the light in which it belongs.
Suspect. As long as the information is suspect, we can never come up with a true answer to the question of whether John is a real TT or not. WE CAN come up with some other answers though. Watch and check the data over time. If his "predictions" start coming true, consistently... he is a time traveler, or a prophet.
I hope I got what you were asking in this message.
Rick[Edited by Rick Donaldson on 03-26-2001 at 03:06 PM]
Posted by Alexander A.Shpilman on 03-26-2001 03:11 PM
Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire
((The Tipler sinusoid has layers - forward zone, reverse zone, forbidden zone, neutral zone. They may even glow. Our brave adventurer enters the zones from an almost parallel vector, travels around the cylinder and experiences a closed timelike curve. Boomer's idea of lining up two micro-singularities is a start, but its not enough.))
I think, it is necessary to have two of the Tipler cylinder rotating in opposite directions.
At it, line of movement will similarly Fig.4 in http://www.pmicro.kz/MISC/UFL/Almanach/2n00/MstateA.htm and http://www.pmicro.kz/MISC/UFL/Almanach/2n00/PowerA.htm
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-26-2001 03:15 PM
You state above:
"John Titor might or might not be his real name"
On 2-19-01 at 7:25pm John Titor posted a long Q\A and in the section addressed to Javier, this is the exchange:
((Is John Titor your real name?))
Yes, John Titor is a real name.
Johns response using " 'a' real name" is curious for it is an unusual way to answer the question. I suspect that John Titor is indeed a real name in the sense that he is using the name, but not his birth name.
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-26-2001 03:18 PM
John had posted a Q\A on 2-26-01 at 3:39pm. here is the excerpt:
Q: ((I'm guessing the date of your return to the future is April 19th. Is this correct?))
Johns' response: That is a day to remember but I was thinking more along the lines of March 21.
Is this a subtle prediction? He plainly states that April 19th is a day to remember. That day is coming soon, so I guess we shall all see.[Edited by Phil Fiord on 03-26-2001 at 03:21 PM]
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-26-2001 03:49 PM
John had posted a Q\A on 2-26-01 at 3:39pm. here is the excerpt:
Q: ((I'm guessing the date of your return to the future is April 19th. Is this correct?))
Johns' response: That is a day to remember but I was thinking more along the lines of March 21.
Is this a subtle prediction? He plainly states that April 19th is a day to remember. That day is coming soon, so I guess we shall all see.
Indeed - that is a date to remember. It is Hitler's birtday, it was the day of the attack at Columbine. Lemme see... I think that was also the day they burned Waco. I am sure it was around the 19th of April. Anyway, the 20th was the Oklahoma City bombing. I don't remember the date at Ruby Ridge. Perhaps some one else can come up with that?
In any case, the 19th is a day that federal agencies are on alert. All of them. The military goes on a Threatcon (Threat Condition) Alpha and some time Bravo. Both are increased threat conditions, merely meaning there is the possibility of an increased threat.
The BATF, and the IRS also go on increased alerts on that date, or just prior. They are afraid of the public. Seems like they have a good reason. But, that is neither here nor there. Those agencies, the FBI, CIA and anyone else within the confines of the United States considers that day dangerous for anyone with any connections to the government.
So - April 19th is a 'date to remember' for several reasons. I can't see that is a prediction, and it's why I didn't include it. Perhaps he means something will happen on this 19th April 2001? I dunno. You might wanna add that to the list, but I considered it a normal 19th of April as I described above.
In the case of John's name, I think I was trying to say that no matter what his "birth name" is/was/will be, it is unimportant to the matter of whether he is a time traveler. Names simply aren't that important unless they have to be historically accurate. In our case, John Titor is the know we know him by, so it is likely a real name. By the way, I have not attempted to track down John Titor... and probably will not. I'm not interested in his location myself, nor would I have reason to find out - even if I DID find out, I wouldn't tell anyone anyway.
PS - the shooting of Vicki Weaver - Randy Weaver's wife, took place on 22 August 1992. So it was not in April. Her son was shot, I believe the day before or that same evening.
PPS - I forgot something else. I believe that 19 April is loosely referred to as "Patriot Day" in some of the circles in which I run. I cite as example April 19, 1775.
Government troops suffered a humiliating defeat at the hands of citizen militia today. Hundreds of casualties are reported.
Lt. Colonel Francis Smith, leading 900 troops made up of grenadiers and light infantry marched onto the Green in Lexington shortly after dawn. They had been dispatched from the King's Army in Boston with the intent of capturing anti government fugitives and militia armaments in Lexington and Concord. They were not alone in the morning mist. A detachment of Patriot militia stood at the other end of the Green. http://www.frii.com/~gosplow/april19.html
P.P.P.S (Sorry, I keep adding things I'm finding here)... http://www.apbonline.com/cjsystem/findingjustice/2000/04/18/kushner0418_01.html - This URL shows some folks want to consider the 19th of April "Terrorist Day". I think every day should be "terrorist day" - meaning we should always keep our eyes and ears tuned for such activities near us - so we won't be there when they happen.
Also at that site:
April 19th Through History
April 19, 1775:
The date of the first skirmish of the American
Revolution has a potent meaning to groups
that now perceive themselves to be at war
with the federal government. Massachusetts
militiamen confronted a British brigade
marching to capture a cache of arms in
April 19, 1943:
This day is significant to right wing
extremists, Kushner says, because German
troops entered the Warsaw Ghetto to round
up the remaining Jews there.
April 19, 1993:
In what right-wing extremists consider a day
of infamy, the 50-day siege ended at the
Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas.
Shooting started, fire broke out and 81
April 19, 1995:
One hundred sixty-eight people died in the
bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal
Building in Oklahoma City. Timothy McVeigh
and Terry Nichols were convicted of the
April 20, 1889
Adolph Hitler was born on this day, another
date important to right-wing extremists.
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-26-2001 04:05 PM
Based on what I perceive to be subtle ways in which John gave information, or carefully worded statements so as not to lie, I still have this gut instinct that tells me that John was saying more than remember the past. Indeed, that may likely be the case, but my gut tells me that IF John is a TT, that date this year will have significance. Funny part is that based on what you state above, Rick, no one will be surprised if the 19th is a memorable day. Sadly I guess this leaves us at the maybe maybe not state. Too bad.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-26-2001 04:13 PM
((So - now we have discovered something in this forum after all... The psychological make up of a time cop! Hahaha))
Wait a minute Rick, before you draw your conclusion, allow me to rebuttal and clarify things.
First off, you don’t know me; you’re not a psychologist, or a profiler. Second of all, just because I said I wanted to change the past once, does not mean I would abuse it. I’m just not that kind of person.
But honestly who here has something in their past they would like to erase? And if given the chance to, would they then be called abusers? Of course not.
You’ve drawn into a completely different discussion here if you think of them 1 and the same.
I’m even surprised at you Rick; you of all people would attack my sincerity. I have no alterative motives, nor intent on having anyone believe me. Though you took it upon your self to psychoanalyze who I really am, with the intent on relying the message to everyone here that my credibility is not to be taken seriously. I take that with great offence. Did you not read me saying before “I don’t care what anyone says about me, just don’t attack my character cause that’s personal.” Obviously you didn’t. When you speak about your life, do I psychoanalyze you?
Sorry about that, I couldn’t resist.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-26-2001 04:18 PM
Phil, you're right. I added some more to that post even after you read it. Check it again. But, assuming that "Waco-like" incidents occur this 19th of April, they will be chalked up to "Right Wing Extremists". I guess I am one of those guys. I believe in the Consitution, and I understand the historical significance of such dates. On the other hand, I'm not planning on leading a revolution (not unless and until they start going door to door for our guns. haha then it is too late to NOT lead a revolution! LOL)
John didn't give us anything other than what I might predict though. I know for instance that all bases go on alert. CHances of a military base being a target though, are slim to none. No so-called Right Wing Extremist is gonna hit a military base. In fact, there are no such things as violent right wing extremists. There are lunatics like Timothy McVey out there - who also happen to be right wingers, but those of us who believe the government is too big aren't going around killing people. We fight it other ways, and we do so legally. So - I could make similar predictions. In fact, I make them all the time. I'm right about 25-40% of the time. Typical for anyone making predictions. <shrugs> I'm glad I'm wrong more than I'm right. haha.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-26-2001 04:22 PM
Javier... please re-read what I said. It was tongue-in-cheek. It was a joke. It was for fun. Nothing more my friend. No insults were meant, and I certainly didn't mean you think I was doing so
As far as being a "profiler" - let's just say, you don't know me either, so you can't make that statement any more than you can the part about being a psychologist.
In fact, you can't say anything about me that you know is a fact, unless I've told you so, and then, who knows? I might have lied about the whole thing. Remember, this IS the internet and we really do NOT know one another, do we?
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-26-2001 04:27 PM
ps, pps, ppps.....thought of doing another post instead?
The date has significance. That established, did you note the part in Johns statement about leave about the 21st? Hit it pretty close he did. Now that was no prediction. Did you perchance see my note above my April 19 reference re: John Titor being his name or not? [pg54, a being significant] Also, it was once speculated that Titor might be TI_me_T_ravell_OR(ER), a pen name as you suggest. Perhaps John is his real name, but I sincerely doubt Titor is his last name.[Edited by Phil Fiord on 03-26-2001 at 04:29 PM]
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-26-2001 04:37 PM
So if you are a profiler, then everyone who’s trusted you thus far has been a victim of your lies. Something that separates you and me, joke or not. I make clear my intentions and beliefs, do you?
If I were to joke about who you really are Rick, I wouldn’t make it sound so convincing. I would allow you and others pick up on the fact that I was merely making a joke. Not make accusation of what I have been saying was merely because of a fear, and that I am a hypocrite.
I wouldn’t change the past, nor break someone’s machine. That’s what my original message should have said, if you didn’t pick up on it or on past posts.
I hope this clears things up now.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-26-2001 05:28 PM
I just received word that we have posted an alledged time traveler video on anomalies.net. The exact URL is located here: http://anomalies.net/time_traveler/ Click on the "Video" part beneath that page. If you can't get to it, try this one.
I think it is a fake. It was crappy video, and I probably could do better with my computer here at home... but, I'm not a video expert.
Javier: Lighten up. I was kidding around with you. No, I'm not a profiler. Geez buddy, you are taking this WAY too seriously. Tell ya what, you're 21 in a few days, right? How about I buy ya a beer? Goodness gracious!
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-26-2001 05:40 PM
Well I’ll tell you what Rick. Since you acknowledged the fact that what you said to me was a joke and intended as one, I’m willing to let it go. But in the future, I suggest you stick to making jokes with those that you already know.
P.S. I don’t drink, but thanks anyway’s .
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-26-2001 06:09 PM
The video that is there is not from John. just to clarify that. Its someone elses video they put up there.
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-26-2001 06:17 PM
Rick & Phil,
Boomer has already told me that his name isn't really John Titor. If you remember, when I suggested that his name was an anagram for "I am Trot" and that I found him (as Time_Travel_O)contra-posting with a member named Trott on another site, he said that "Titor" is Ti-me T-ravel Or (Ti-T-OR).[Edited by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-26-2001 at 06:24 PM]
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-26-2001 06:26 PM
Do you think John's video will be alot more convincing then that light show? If it is, John should get the Oscar for best special effects in a Drama Series hehe.
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-26-2001 07:09 PM
it does indeed look and smell of the sea. Maybe a cat food can. Hmm I decided.
Can the video be set up to download? I have a neighbor who would get a hoot 'n' hollar out of it, not to mention a nephew or two.
I did not recall your exchange with john regarding his name earlier, but since you mention it, I vaguely do. Thanks for the clarification. I just noticed the odd way John used 'a' real name. No harm though, If I were potentially a TT, I would not use my real name, but thats me.
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 03-26-2001 09:31 PM
I did get a chuckle when Boomer slipped in that slick answer, "It's a real name." I still say that he's got a good sense of humor (when he avoids getting emotional).
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-27-2001 06:52 AM
I recall thinking 'John may be English' because his humor is rather dry not so far from the english humor. This still did not conflict with my thought that he may indeed be in Florida because I have known people in FL with dry humor as well. I just wonder...Does John have a drawl?
Greetings all, from the 3rd world state of California Where electricity service is broken But its sunny.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-27-2001 10:06 AM
I find it interesting that John said that the name is of a real named person. Look it up. There is a dead John Titor listed for the Chesapeca (Spelling) Cemetary in PA(Pennsylania -- Spelling).
From Emmett's link:
Since the first two breakthroughs could require breakthroughs in energy generation, and since the physics underlying the propulsion goals is closely linked to energy physics, it is also of interest to discover fundamentally new modes of energy generation. The principle phenomena of interest for this category is, again, the vacuum fluctuations. It has been theorized that this energy can be extracted without violating conservation of energy or any thermodynamic laws (Forward 1984, Cole 1993). It is still unknown if this vacuum energy exists as predicted, how much energy might be available to extract, and what the secondary consequences would be of extracting vacuum energy.
Special relativity states that the speed of light is an upper limit for the motion of matter through spacetime. Recently, however, theories using the formalism of general relativity have suggested that this limit can be circumvented by altering spacetime itself. This includes wormhole and warp drive theories. A wormhole is a shortcut created through spacetime (Morris 1988 and Visser 1995), as illustrated in Figure 3, where a region of spacetime is warped to create a shorter path between two points. A warp drive involves the expansion and contraction of spacetime to propel a region of spacetime faster than light (Alcubierre 1994). Figure 4 illustrates the Alcubierre warp drive, showing the opposing regions of expanding and contracting spacetime that propel the center region.
During the workshop these possibilities were discussed with an emphasis on experimental verification. A poster by Forward suggested a search for evidence of negative mass based on recent astronomical data (da Costa 1996). The posters of Dinowitz, Froning, Ringermacher, and Woodward all offered experiments to test their theories. Several experiments were suggested to test the theories linking inertia to vacuum fluctuations, including experiments described in existing literature (Forward 1996). And interest was expressed in continuing the experiments to test the claims of weight changes over spinning superconductors (Li 1997).
Theories that could be used instead for 'Time Travel' not
'Space Travel', certainly could lean that way perhaps. ???
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-27-2001 10:11 AM
Chester Rural Cemetery Index T
... Titerrence Titter Tittor Tittor Tittor / Titor Tittsworth Titus Titus Titus Titus ... Filomena
Anna Eliza / Elizabeth Emmor John LeeRoy Louis William Frederick ...
http://www.oldchesterpa.com/crc/crct.html - 101k - Cached - Similar pages
Well at least the name was a real person.
Only one listed, I think, on the net.
By the way, John Titor, searching, leads anyone to this thread.
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-27-2001 01:02 PM
Indeed, A John Titor is listed. I wonder if this was a baby . You know how a person would take a birth cert from a dead baby of their approx age and obtain documents for themself as the babys name? Suppose that was done so John had a real name for Car Insurance and such? Surely death records are still archived in 2036 and a cert would be obtainable. hmmmm.
Posted by Tom Dehn on 03-27-2001 01:23 PM
Interesting thread, I must say.
Well, the jury seems out, and I must say John TT was quite interesting. However. Here is where he slipped up:
On his last post, he mentioned the phrase "Milk does a body good and beef is what’s for dinner!"
The fact that a man from 2036 knows of these two ad campains strikes me as pretty odd, as they are pretty old hat even now.
The other issue is that these ad campains died out roughly 6 to 7 years ago, which if John was visiting himself as a baby in 2001, he would have also missed television references to said ad campaigns. Only one who LIVED through those times would have and will have these slogans engrained in our common pop culture, which to an outsider would be pretty obscure. The ads were also not present in 1976 either, where John supposedly visited.
I deduce that John TT knows these slogans not from Old magazines or TV, or because someone "now" told him, but because he lived through those periods, just like everyone else on the planet.
It was a simple slip up.
But a slip up indeed it was.
Nice try, but no dice, John.
I find it rather Ironic that John TT was foiled by the very same consumeristic pop culture that he so obviously despises, (yet is fused with)
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-27-2001 01:41 PM
Nice work Tom I don't know of the ad you speak of, but good shot.
P.S. I.O.T.M. has been simi-updated.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-27-2001 03:26 PM
Phil: Darby: I recall thinking 'John may be English' because his humor is rather dry not so far from the english humor. This still did not conflict with
my thought that he may indeed be in Florida because I have known people in FL with dry humor as well. I just wonder...Does John
have a drawl?
Interesting assessment. Doing a search of public records I found the below. Note, I'm not posting anything anyone can't find for themselves on an email name search...
Does Joh speak French?
Posted by Lola Montez on 03-27-2001 08:10 PM
Rick, You are an impressive detective! That is really interesting. But, why French? United Kingdom and Titorenko doesn't really add up to French, does it? What am I missing?
Also, when were those "Milk does a Body Good" ads out? I remember them but can't remember the time frame.
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-27-2001 08:34 PM
That was an interesting return. Will that person, if not the JT himself be surprised in the morning. I did the research thing too and my results are posted on the other thread. I found a possible place he may have travelled to on the web.
A thought occurs to me though. Suppose JT is a TT and we are looking for him to not be and start locating the web habits of a man of similar namesake and referencing them. Would that be kind? Hate to have a similar name at the moment.
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-27-2001 08:49 PM
It appears from a search I just undertook that the campaign for milk does a body good ended in late 99 to early 00. The campaign was winding down for a while and thus not as apparent, but was in print ads into 2000. This would mean that that the milk ad slip is false. JT could have come across it, if he were a TT. Actually, even though the ads are now gone, there are still a slew of references to the ad on the web.
There is a book with celebrity milk ads...the moustache book i think. Fair warning though, in my search I crossed paths with a vegan site that details the less desirable side to cows milk. If you are weak in the tummy, please do not hit the link
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-28-2001 12:08 AM
Asked Olav if he could put the video in windows media so I could view the video on his time travel site.
Just got to see it today.
thats very very interesting.
how he searched for the right spot,
opened the hole,
bright flash of white light that engulfs him as he walks through it,and how it fills up the entire area.
and afterward as you see the area where the hole is closing and the bricks on the fireplace you can observe the warping in and out of space time as the hole closes.
almost reminds me of ....something.
if it is fake he did a very very good job.
thank you Olav!
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-28-2001 03:15 PM
Lola: Rick, You are an impressive detective! That is really interesting. But, why French? United Kingdom and Titorenko doesn't really add up to French, does it? What am I missing?
Hehe you're missing the most important part of what I didn't post there. The John Titoriko (or whatever it was) is in France, he just has a UK email addy. Anyway, he has a web site up I think, or at least there was some information pointing to France. I do not believe this person is the same as our John.
In all the searching I DID - I DID find John's email address I believe. I'm not going to put it here though. Anyway, I he didn't use John or Titor (specifically) in the email address. But,I'm about 83% sure it is him now.
I've also not written the email address, because I don't want John to think I am trying to really find him. I was doing it out of curiousity only.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-28-2001 03:18 PM
A thought occurs to me though. Suppose JT is a TT and we are looking for him to not be and start locating the web habits of a man of
similar namesake and referencing them. Would that be kind? Hate to have a similar name at the moment.
That is why I am not writing the addresses I've found. For the record, I've only found 2 references to "John Titor" at all on the net, and suffice it to say, one is here on this thread, and the other "ain't him".
Posted by Tom Dehn on 03-29-2001 08:38 AM
With respect to the issue of the Milk and Beef slip up,
Is it possible that he picked it up from someone or some ad during his visit in out "time"? Yes. Would it be likely? No.
John TT himself mentioned his disdain for slang, and in our modern pop culture, this would be just that.
The fact is, we (you and I) speak with a lingo and dialect formed by such pop culture expereinces relevant to our timeframe. In fact, I would go so far as to say that normal patterns of speech we use now would be totally not understood if one were to go back to the 1930's or 40's.
Ie, expressions like "Cut yourself a slice of rug" or "Putting on the dogs", "Slick Jack" , "Soda Jerk", "Way gone", "It's a gasser" etc. etc. would be as confusing to someone in our time period as would it be If I went back to 1935 and mentioned someone was "fly" or "Funky fresh and in effect" "Freak-out" or "He's a Spaz". You get the point.
The fact is, that someone from 2036 would have a totally different set of slangs, speech patterns and dialect even in the written form. These issues usually pop out unconsiously when writing, and they indeed DID pop out for John TT in SEVERAL places. Look back on his posts, then think to yourself, If I were from 2036, would I talk and write and form sentences with common phrases as John has used?
The point is moot however, as it is obvious from many many other points other than mine that John TT is a total fake.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-29-2001 11:37 AM
Excellent deduction once again Tom. Without your input, I’ll wager some would still have gone on thinking to their 1 side about John being a real Time Traveler. This may not have changed any heads though, but you did say something most people don’t want to hear. And that’s very important to do, especially if it’s the truth. Keep it up .
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-29-2001 11:44 AM
The older you get, the less you use slang or even used it at all. Excuse me, that is from your own viewpoint, but keep thinking of why the time machine does not work. I can now tell you why it does not work.
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-29-2001 04:25 PM
Some things about John...
I was reading over some of these postings and I just wanted to make a few comments.
somebody mentioned John might be a Russian (I think Albert?) and another that he may be from England (I think Rick?)
anyway I just wanted to say I don't beleive John is either .
I will tell you why...
For one thing John is really from Florida he was telling the truth about that. I dont think the document he submitted for his chevy was fake either.
Just as Rick could probably tell you I am really from Ohio. from my email IP.
Another thing I will share with you is I do not beleive John to be a Russian at all. John and I were talking alot about the Constitution of the US. I had found a web site with the constitution and the bill of rights I shared with him how I printed the whole document out and layed on my bed and read the whole thing out loud to myself. his response to me was that made him very proud. He beleives strongly in the Constitution and individual rights of people. He himself videotaped what was going on in the Florida election. He is very much into this sort of stuff. Gathering and storing information. The stuff we talked about in private has lead me to the conclusion that he DEFINITELY is NOT Russian. Infact he may be more American than any of us.
Another thing is people from England call their Mothers, mum. John has not called his mother mum not even one time not even while talking in real time. so I do not beleive him to be from England either.
You may not find a web site that John has because maybe he doesnt have one. I don't have a web site either. And I myself have not used my last name on web sites if I have posted I have always just used Pamela. or pamela with a number after it if someone else had pamela taken. maybe he has done the same. who knows.
Rick, I think it was a good idea you had in starting the Titor 2036 thread analyzing and compiling data. hopefully it will get back on topic soon. Another thing I wanted to mention real quick is when I commented on the 2.5 it was from an email from John it was never posted on this forum.
Posted by rich staton on 03-29-2001 09:59 PM
perhaps its all a joke
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-29-2001 10:08 PM
My only concern is living in the present. The world is too small for other people from other Countries to not maybe read this thread. I been on other forums and there are people from all over the world on them. I feel it is irresponsible to talk about a future that may be implied as having occurred. This is not where I want to be with it.
And so do people from other countries listen to the Art Bell show. Someone in this Country better start thinking about what is really going on in this world first.
Talk may be cheap but certain ideas that relate "as long as you do not bother me with it" better apply to both parties.
Do not preach to me.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-29-2001 10:26 PM
Anyway to a certain point I can forgive that. Talking about a possible future may not be as interesting to anyone if not jazzed up with time travel, but I really do not know about that. What is the purpose? That you are invinceable?
That only you can have so much "hate" in you?
Really, you ain't seen nuthin' about what some people really think in this world. You may find that hard life you really want. This is a New Age. Mistakes will be made even by me or anyone, but this constantness of this thread implies that if John is TT, he is also insane. The rest of us will not lose our freedom because someone "thinks" that they should have "more freedom than anyone else".
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-29-2001 10:34 PM
And the reason behind gathering all of this information John said is for what?
Because some of you believe his claims and want to see if it becomes real, right?
This isn’t an impartial forum, it’s a forum for those that believe John’s story I see it, nothing else. And talking other wise or questioning his story, gets you attacked and told that you’re going off topic.
Man, the hypocrisy… Where are our individual’s rights when that happens? Maybe you can help answer that Pamela.
Posted by Pamela Moore on 03-30-2001 02:33 AM
John's time travel theories started out as fun and interesting but has resulted not in discussing theories and possible ways to time travel but in fighting and discord and people getting offended and insulted.
I myself am sorry if anything I have posted has offended or insulted anyone. I only tried to share with you things from my perspective being close to John. a lot of times things were taken the wrong way.
Maybe we are not ready to discuss time travel.Maybe it truly belongs to the future.
Peace to all. And Peace to all countries.
Posted by Kevin Spooner on 03-30-2001 03:39 AM
Now as I recall, there was going to be an attempt to video John's 'departure'. I find this (un)(in)credible.
When, pray tell, is this supposed to happen and when may it be previewed.
I look forward to its availability if true. I do not look forward to the inevitable excuses if it does not. If JT is gone, and the video is done... where for art thou. If JT is gone, and the video is "out of luck" material then there will be serious scrutiny and heavy seas ahead.
Can anyone explain why it is JT required a chevvy as part of the set? Or is it simply means of transport. And what on earth were those 'labels' on his picture for? One appeared to be only casually stuck on.
If the internet is well and alive in 2036 and 'advanced' compared to today as claimed, that implies improved computing and networking. Now if that is true, then surely quality of print would not have deteriated but remained either by imprint, toner, inkjet, heat, etc, or other technology of at least 600x600 DPI or greater. Also, if this is shortly after some kind of war, then surely they would not have advanced computing either. Being a computer technician myself with a long historical involvement therein, I find that incredibly unlikely. Hmm. Did we find an answer to this?
Now please settle down... I am not denying its possibility just stating findings. I am most curious about its potential.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-30-2001 09:42 AM
Beautiful words for those in favor of John. Though I must question your motives. Pamela what are you trying to say to those that aren't on your side>>>
((Maybe we are not ready to discuss time travel.Maybe it truly belongs to the future.))
Can't you see what we are discussing Time Travel? But whenever anyone makes statements that question John's story or if his machine might not be real you retaliate and defend your friend John?
And then here we have Kevin admitting that he doesn't even want to hear the truth if he's a fake. (Not in those exact terms, but you get my point).
Geeesh guys, (somebody once said this to me) is there some way to convince you he's not a real time traveler? Especially you Pamela, your the worst. And I mean that with as much touch love as possible. I'd hate for you to be in pain later on.
I gotta go, be back tonight if anyone wants to have a dialouge.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 03-30-2001 10:01 AM
Javier: And the reason behind gathering all of this information John said is for what?
Once again I will define WHY. So we can DOCUMENT the things stated in the past, and then CHECK THE ACCURACY. If the things start hitting the truth, then the chances go up that John was a time traveler. If he doesn't hit any of them then he isn't one. Simple as that.
Kevin: When, pray tell, is this supposed to happen and when may it be previewed.
IF a video is made, I'm supposed to get a copy for the anomalies.net system and I will ensure that it is digitized, unretouched from the original and placed into public domain for everyone to see. Until I get or see it, I can't be sure we will ever see one.
Kevin: Can anyone explain why it is JT required a chevvy as part of the set? Or is it simply means of transport. And what on
earth were those 'labels' on his picture for? One appeared to be only casually stuck on.
Actually, yes, John did answer that earlier on when someone questioned the quality of the photos. They were done "in our time". Photocopies on a photocopy machine then scanned in. <Shrugs>
Rick[Edited by Rick Donaldson on 03-30-2001 at 10:11 AM]
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-30-2001 11:12 AM
John is a fictional character made up by a person who as yet is un-identified. He has used people as defined by some purpose that only can be defined as unknown.
Internet Guard Dog. Grrrrrrrrrrr.............
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 03-30-2001 01:55 PM
The method of time travel needs work that will not be done, in my opinion, in any near future.
That is why it is still fun to talk about, when it becomes real, then it will probably not be fun then.
And afterall, that is all we are doing?
Posted by Kevin Spooner on 03-30-2001 08:35 PM
Javier: And then here we have Kevin admitting that he doesn't even want to hear the truth if he's a fake. (Not in those exact terms, but you get my point).
Actually javier... I did not say that - please don't misquote or misinterpret.
I'm looking forward to the video - if its true.
I would be challenging shall we say if it is not true.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-30-2001 09:30 PM
Did you not say this?>>> ((I look forward to its availability if true. I do not look forward to the inevitable excuses if it does not. ))
How did I misinterpert?
Posted by Phil Fiord on 03-30-2001 10:01 PM
Earlier in the thread it was asked why he needed a chevy. He had responded it was because he needed adequate suspension due to the 2g forge imposed on the vehicle. That was not a direct quote but the quote is in this long thread somewhere.
Posted by Kevin Spooner on 03-31-2001 04:13 AM
You misinterpret well Javier.
"And then here we have Kevin admitting that he doesn't even want to hear the truth if he's a fake. (Not in those exact terms, but you get my point). "
I did not admit any such thing. You absolutely misinterpreted.
I state again that if all we get are excuses, I'll be amongst the first to be very critical. That's definately not the same as "not wanting to hear the truth if he's a fake." Honestly I wonder what drives this dribble.
And yes, if there is a video to hand, it will produce a great deal of discussion.
Now... were did I put that nuclear clock...
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-31-2001 12:21 PM
((And yes, if there is a video to hand, it will produce a great deal of discussion.))
Discussion how it's real? How the discussion is now about how JT is a real TT? Gee, I look forward to that.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 03-31-2001 07:24 PM
Well I’m not going to make a long speech good-bye like John did. I’m not going to address every single person who’ve I’ve spoken to before and thank the academy . Nor is my good-bye’s intent to seek any last minute approval like John’s.
Not to worry though, I’m not leaving forever , I’m going away for a while. A little vacation.
I can’t say where exactly, but if anyone want’s anything from Florida, do let me know by this week. I leave the same time John’s supposed “window of opportunity” is suppose to be open. What a strange coincidence… I hope his trip goes as planned .
Anyway’s, I hope to come back to the Art Bell forum and continue on discussing Time Travel and how it’s unethical.
In the mean time, I hope some will stand up to the majority that are 1 sided, and question them.
I’d hate to come back and see everyone chanting heehe, that was a joke. Funny isn’t it?
Good-bye everybody. Though I don’t leave for another week.
-Javier C.[Edited by Javier Cortez on 03-31-2001 at 07:29 PM]
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 04-02-2001 07:07 AM
That was for Javier.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 04-02-2001 10:37 AM
I don't get it Rick... Are you calling me a fool? I thought we weren't going to resort to attacks anymore?
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 04-03-2001 07:56 AM
Javier: I don't get it Rick... Are you calling me a fool? I thought we weren't going to resort to attacks anymore?
I was refering to John "being a time traveler". It's an April Fools joke. You don't get it yet?
Posted by Javier Cortez on 04-03-2001 08:51 AM
Nope I didn't get it. And for 2 reasons. Here's why:
1. I didn't see John's name in anywhere in that joke.
2. It wasn't April 1st when you made it.
Posted by Pamela Moore on 04-03-2001 11:45 AM
To the board:
Please don't send me any more messages for John.
John is no longer in this worldline... he has went home.
When I receive the video of John's departure I will send a copy of it to Rick to put on his web site.
John requested to please not harass anyone who was unlucky enough to have the name John Titor because it will not be him.
He said he was flattered that his words were being dissected so carefully but that he could see you were applying your own standards and thoughts to what was said.
He wanted me to remind you that people in different times do not think the same way you do and a cultures maturity is determined by how far it can plan into the future.
please be patient on the video.
John......goodbye my friend.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 04-03-2001 02:37 PM
He said on March 10 that he would leave in 30 days. He lied, he left alot sooner. There is no set standard to that, that's the truth. He said it him self.
There is nothing wrong with dissecting. After all, that’s what Rick will do with the video, and interpret it not by twisting the facts to our liking, but to what it really is. Nice try John, trying to lay a guilt trip on us .
If anything, John twisted the facts to his favor on more then a few occasions. Just look at the thread “I am from 2036.” He comes here and convinces a few people that he is in fact a Time Traveler all just on faith. And now, will those that do believe John’s claims ever be the same?
I sure hope so… I know what it’s like to have been brainwashed and only see 1 side.
Posted by Pamela Moore on 04-03-2001 03:21 PM
As always, the truth is in the details.
I went back to march 10 here it is:
((Dear Fellow Time Travelers:
In about 30 days, I will be leaving this worldline to return home to 2036. )))
you notice the little detail "about"
about 30 days. not exactly 30 days.
25 days is about 30 days.
You don't have to worry about John anymore, Javier or running into him in Florida. He is gone Javier. G-O-N-E. and safe.
disappointed? too bad.
…" I know what it’s like to have been brainwashed and only see 1 side." somehow I beleive you.. for you truly only do see one side.[Edited by Pamela Moore on 04-03-2001 at 03:44 PM]
Posted by Javier Cortez on 04-03-2001 04:32 PM
See what I mean Rick?
That was no truth, that was personal. Every time I tell you the truth about John I get the business from you Pamela. It’s a good thing he’s gone, hopefully now you’ll start to come to your senses.
Posted by Pamela Moore on 04-03-2001 05:01 PM
"If you look back I was on topic, and made a little unbiased comment about John. Then Pamela playing her “wonder women” role came in and up setted the whole thing. "
I kind of like the nickname "wonder woman"
now...if I could only remember where I parked that invisible plane of mine! hahahaha
-Pamela[Edited by Pamela Moore on 04-03-2001 at 05:17 PM]
Posted by Andy Gerberich on 04-03-2001 07:15 PM
I'm real sorry to inform you people of this but,--- corporeal beings are not permitted to travel backward in time. It is a universal principal that time travel only to the future, is permitted. We are not, in any way, shape or form, thank god, permitted to alter that which will be, by changing that which was.
Posted by Javier Cortez on 04-03-2001 07:44 PM
So that makes 3 people here with nicknames, is that about right?
Javier Cortez = "TimeTravelActivist"
John Titor = "Boomer"
Pamela Moore = "Wonder Woman"
Don't let it get to your head though. Just like when you passed that Mensa Exam .
Btw, Ever hear of the joke involving Superman, Wonder Woman and the Invisible Man? Hehee, wouldn't you like to know.
Posted by Pamela Moore on 04-03-2001 10:19 PM
"Don't let it get to your head though."
Darn...You mean I can't wear my "wonder woman" outfit and special cape?
You forgot Darby. John called him "Tarbaby."
Rick needs a nick name......(Moulder? (x-files))
p.s. tell me the joke.
-pamela[Edited by Pamela Moore on 04-03-2001 at 10:42 PM]
Posted by Javier Cortez on 04-04-2001 12:37 AM
I’d like to tell you the joke, but if I did that I may offend a few people and get TOS'ed (finally ). I know that’s never stopped me before, but I think it would be more funny to hear Kevin Beacon say it. Rent "HallowMan." He say's the joke just before he goes invisible.
But beware, it is rated “R” with violence, explicit language, and some sexual content. Viewer discretion is advised .
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 04-04-2001 01:59 AM
I continue to ponder Boomer’s device…and I still come to the same conclusion: it won’t work as described.
I continued (by trick and device as necessary) to try to pin Boomer down to some general idea of the mass of his “micro-singularities” but was unsuccessful. The passenger side of his truck (in the photos) doesn’t seem to be squashed and the truck seems to be sitting level. The device with the singularities inside probably weighs no more that 100 kg.
In an earlier post I threw out an absurd number for the size of the Schwarzschild Radius if the mass of the singularities was that of a “small mountain”…I think that I said something like one meter. No one questioned that except Rick (Boomer suggested that the mass was much less than what I proposed but didn’t question the numbers). It really was an absurdly large number. The Schwarzschild Radius of the Earth collapsed to a black hole would be about 9mm.
Let’s suppose that the mass of his singularities is 100 kg. The Schwarzschild Radius would be about 4.5*10^-13 cm. Boomer says that the singularities are spinning and he pumps electrons into it to expand the radius. I’ll give the devil his due and allow him to pump another 100 kg of electrons into the singularities. The radius becomes 9*10^-13 cm. And because they are spinning I’ll allow him to expand the radius one trillion fold to 9*10^-1 cm (9mm). Oddly enough that’s the same Schwarzschild Radius of the Earth collapsed to a black hole. HOWEVER, there’s a huge difference. Sitting in the driver’s seat one meter away the gravitational effect on the driver is exactly the same as having 200 kg of normal mass sitting one meter away. It would have no more effect on the driver than the motor block of the truck sitting under the hood. Gravitation decreases as the inverse square of the distance from the center of gravity.
But let me switch gears. Let’s suppose that the machine worked as Boomer suggests. The singularities sit inside of his “black box”. He starts it up and the singularities expand. What is the first object affected by the expanding event horizon? The device itself. Before Boomer is affected by the expanding gravitational “distortion field” his device will lie wholly inside the Event Horizon and be gone along with its GVL, cesium clocks and battery before the field reaches him. The machine might travel but Boomer would be left behind with two unleashed singularities. (An event that he admitted would be disastrous according to the IRC log on the Anomalies site.)
The theory of physics that he uses is somewhat based on scientific fact…but the engineering that he suggests simply won’t work.
(If you haven't read the IRC log you should. Boomer was drinking wine that night and was rather talkative...and was hitting on Yareisa. Sex and alcohol...an Intel weenie's dream when debriefing a target.)
The IRC log is at:
Posted by Javier Cortez on 04-04-2001 02:37 AM
((If you haven't read the IRC log you should. Boomer was drinking wine that night and was rather talkative...and was hitting on Yareisa. Sex and alcohol...an Intel weenie's dream when debriefing a target.))
Lol , man that was funny. I like having a good laugh now and then. Thanks for pointing that out Darby.
Btw, isn't that what some service members do though when they are dispatched to other places besides the U.S.? Drink and have sex with the locals ?
Tisk-tisk John, and laying the moves on a married woman…
Posted by Kevin Spooner on 04-04-2001 05:09 AM
On another post I questionned the alleged video footage of the person moving into his apparent time travel field and wondered similarly to how Darby has now why is it that the fishtank, parts of the floor, walls and all other objects in its immediate focus did not also dissapear. Kind of makes me wonder.
But then I suppose we mere uneducated people suffering lack of nick names should not be privvy to such a thing as a reasonable explanation.
Aw gee mum.... I think its all a bit of a jigsaw without the frame to place it on. Or is that there IS no frame to assemble it on in the first place? Maybe its a conspiracy.
But then again... anythings possible (well... maybe.)
Still looking forward to alleged video of JT the TT's departure. Any news? Its a bit like waiting for dessert don't you think?
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 04-04-2001 09:40 AM
Andy: I'm real sorry to inform you people of this but,--- corporeal beings are not permitted to travel backward in time. It is a
universal principal that time travel only to the future, is permitted. We are not, in any way, shape or form, thank god,
permitted to alter that which will be, by changing that which was.
What rule book are you reading Andy? I mean, it isn't that I do not believe you... after all your comments pretty much meld with what Javier believes (that time travel should NOT be permitted), but at least he gives credit where credit is due. You're simply making a blanket statement regarding the idea (one that's not been proven one way or the other mind you). So... show me this rule book you have.
Posted by Pamela Moore on 04-04-2001 07:20 PM
To Darby: (tarbaby)
Keep these details in mind when analyzing the functionality of the machine:
1. The singularity itself does not touch anything. it is suspended in a magnetic feild.
2.The singularity is charged before it is captured. that is how the second event horizon is formed. positive-top spin.
3.The gravity feilds they create are combined and twisted.
4. The gravity between the singularity and the event horizons have different properties.
5. They are controlled by overlapping and varying the energy between them.
6. The machine is in the back seat when in operation.
Posted by Kevin Spooner on 04-04-2001 08:50 PM
isn't the contact of a Singularity actually the means of suspension unless of course it were within a pure vaccume with no other forces involved? Would this not create a contactual bridge between the singularity itself and the external / surrounding items or forces?
A singularity has dimensions?
What can alter gravity? Altering Mass & acceleration? What can alter a mass based gravity? A bigger mass. What a mess of mass. Can mass be manipulated into patterns?
Two slightly different sounds create a third harmony (much like Robert Monroe's Hemisync system.) Does the same apply to the gravity fields in this case?
And I just wondered, yes a wee joke... as the previous post mentioned the machine is in the back seat when in operation, does this imply a rear-ended exit?
Oh for goodness sake Kevin... be still thou soul! The video can't be far away away away away awa aw aaaaaa.
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 04-05-2001 02:47 AM
Forgive me for using one of Boomer's conventions as I respond to your last post:
(((Keep these details in mind when analyzing the functionality of the machine))
(((1. The singularity itself does not touch anything. it is suspended in a magnetic feild.)))
I don't think that I suggested that anything touches the singularity. It's the Schwarzschild Radius (event horizon) that I was referring to.
(((2.The singularity is charged before it is captured. that is how the second event horizon is formed. positive-top spin.)))
An electron can be described as positive or negative top or bottom spin. But an electron isn't a singularity at the center of a black hole. How does one "charge" a singularity given that any particle that falls into it becomes part of the singularity? If it has a charge it's composed of quarks. If it's composed of quarks it isn't a singularity.
(((3.The gravity fields they create are combined and twisted.)))
OK. Boomer also creates a gratitational field as does the truck which combine with the fields. I don't see how this addresses any of my issues.
(((4. The gravity between the singularity and the event horizons have different properties.)))
The statement doesn't make sense. The singularity does create a gravitational field. That part of the gravitational field where the escape velocity is just equal to the speed of light is the event horizon. The EH generates no field at all - it is the field (or a specific region of it to be precise.)
(((5. They are controlled by overlapping and varying the energy between them.)))
See #3. They either overlap or they combine. The fields are either in phase (combine)or out of phase (overlap). Phase coupling and phase cancellation has to be accounted for given the following: we are dealing with a relatively small mass(micro-singularities); the truck is massive and has numerous odd shapes; differing areas of the truck have varying densities; the truck heats and cools at differing rates and thus expands and contracts at differing rates; Boomer is massive and it's unlikely that he sits perfectly still during the "spin up". Each of these variables also twist and warp the gravitational field and do so unpredictably.
(((6. The machine is in the back seat when in operation.)))
OK. Front seat, back seat or on the roof.
A. None of the six points address how the device continues to function as it is engulfed within the expanding event horizon (from the portion of my post where I asssume that the device can actually generate a sufficiently intense gravitational field). "Inside the event horizon" means no communication with the outside - the device can't communicate information to Boomer and Boomer can't communicate with it. For all intents and purposes it no longer exists.
B. Your post doesn't address the numbers that I posted. Boomer has consistently stated that these are micro-singularities. Micro-singularities have tiny masses and consequently tiny gravitational fields. His singularities were made by colliding alpha particles (protons)in the CERN collider. True, if an object closely approches the field the effects would be intense but not widespread.
C. As I posted, if I assume 200kg mass and sufficient angular momentum (spin) and allow the impossible expansion of one-trillion fold the EV becomes a "huge" 9mm radius field. Boomer and the truck aren't going to be sucked through the eye of a needle.
D. Boomer suggests that the "distortion field" to about 4 meters (15-16 feet)with sufficient intensity to suck him into the field from a distance of 1 meter as well as sucking the truck into the field at a distance of about three meters. AND he says that neither he nor the truck falls inside the Schwarzschild Radius. He describes a field that has a Schwarzschild Radius of less than one meter; doesn't rip him apart due to tidal effects and is still sufficiently intense at three times that distance (thus 1/8th the intensity) to also suck in the truck from front bumper to read bumper.
It won't work. Even if he danced on the head of a pin and managed to explain away my "A." above there's no way to explain way "D." Tipler time travel is accomplished by passing extremely close to the EH from specific angles. "Extremely close" does not include three Schwarzschild Radii from the center of gravity.
Hey - this is fun again! Debating the facts instead of flaming each other. <smooch>[Edited by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 04-05-2001 at 03:06 AM]
Posted by Javier Cortez on 04-05-2001 05:04 AM
And to think, Boomer went quiet and then said he was leaving right around the time Darby proposed his well thought out questions to him. That’s to bad , you really missed out John.
I mean you were quiet for a whole week, and then said that this is your last post when you came back. Which was 2 weeks ago (I think, correct me if I’m wrong on the date Pamela ). So you were still around, hanging out and lurking through these forums reading all these posts. But how did you keep from answering ?
I guess fear is a powerful motivator to flee and avoid incrimination of ones own statements. Especially when encountered with an equally matched intelligence. It’s hard to keep up, when you know your story and claims will soon come collapsing in on it’s self.
Good job in explaining all this scientific stuff in an objective manner Darby. Makes me envies that I’m not a scientist nor that I know jack about what you just said . But I do know it questions and disproves John’s claims, allowing others who are 1 sided to see another side not yet visible to them.
Good luck in keeping people from starting up a John Titor cult while I’m gone. I don’t wanna come back and hear people chanting, hehee.
Yeah yeah, I know I said that already. So I said it again, it sounded it funny to me. Just like Zytol's commercial "A low risk of sexual side affects." How they can say that with a straight face just baffles me .
Posted by Randy Empey on 04-05-2001 07:38 AM
Ah, but the cult was begun a long time ago ... and you've been a visiting preacher many times, I thought you knew!!!
I hope you don't wind up spending a weekend in some Floridian jail for harrassment of a John Titor named-alike.
-- Randy E.
(P.S. -- See the cult-accountant, maybe they owe you some back pay ...)
If you are going to talk about singularities and thier properties, why don't you pull in the formulas et. al. from the appropriate current theories so that folks can't dismiss your statements as contrived, ill-informed or at best incomplete? John never told us he was goint to 'take the bull by the horns' and provide any proof -- but if you are going to speak disproofs then you had better get that bull down and hog tie it where we can all see you do it.
With what you have said so far, I don't have enough info about where you or your target are coming from to evaluate the accuracy of anything anybody has said. Partially thats because 'boomer' didn't provide said info -- but you could at least fill in the holes with something in the way of formulae, number crunching and admitting of unknowns.
So far, its just been six rounds of making mole hills into mountains and ignoring the fact that the alleged-mole (as in mole hill maker) never offered anything in the way of proof of his mole-ness. Only asking for a discussion on rodents in general.
(Wait, maybe I took the metaphor too far ...)
-- Randy E.
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 04-05-2001 10:35 AM
I posted the formula for the Schwarzschild Radius some time ago...but here it is again:
Rs= 2GM/c^2 where
Rs is the Schwarzschild Radius expressed as cm
G is the Newtonian gravitational constant (6.68*10^-8 gm^3/m/s)
M is the mass in kg
c^2 is the speed of light (3*10^20 cm/s)
As to the intensity of the gravitational field it decreases as the inverse square of the distance. Basic High School classical physics.
Boomer did vigorously defend his device - but didn't do so rigorously. Between his posts here and on other sites he did offer some general descriptions of how it works and its area of effect and posted the photos and diagrams. If that is all the information that is available then it becomes the sole basis for making assumptions. I've tried to use minimum and maximum limits to arrive at some idea as to how it could work. I've concluded that the base science behind the device is somewhat valid but the engineering of the device renders it unusable.
While Boomer was here (as I posted a while back) I offered some Red Herring arguments to him as a cross-check on his knowledge and (more important)to get him to defend his assertions by countering mine. It seemed to be the only way to get him to expand on his otherwise dismissive one-liner responses to inquiries. It's an debriefing technique than can be used once the debriefer concludes that the target has his or her ego engaged. Boomer's ego could be appealed to - and he did get emotional at times. The technique isn't used to anger for anger's sake. It's used because one can get some unrehearsed answers.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 04-05-2001 11:48 AM
It is seeming quite clear to me that the only way to 'time travel' is to produce waves of energy that transport one back or forward in time. I will not explain the mathematics of this, but I think it will include Fourier Transformations Calculus Equations, and I will probably never work on that, I have to leave that to someone else.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 04-05-2001 12:19 PM
Time travel is 'wave surfing' akin to what Albert Einstein
imagined, to me.
Posted by Randy Empey on 04-06-2001 12:25 PM
One formula is a start.
"Basic High School classical physics" -- is a body of oversimplified indoctrination useful only in basic modeling and in training young minds in the scientific method and modern science's version of problem solving.
When using the holdings of "BHSCP" to refute an allegation, one must be aware of the limitations of "BHSCP". Even if you can produce a proof that an event doesn't comply with the holdings of "BHSCP" the event still could occur, if "BHSCP" isn't completely accurate. And most people I've dealt with concur that it is not.
This is like trying to object to the dynamics of the modern nuclear powerplant based on the science of late 19th century european main culture.
Perhaps we are a tad bit closer than all that, but we are still a few yards short of being able to say what is possible and what is not.
But you might be refering to something I haven't understood from your posts yet -- so please keep elaborating.
I don't think the schwartzchild radius is of as much importance here as you imply --- isn't it reasonable to figure that the engineers who build such a device would try to prevent the actual 'nothing will ever come back except maybe hawkin radiation' event horizon from the singularity from expanding beyond the housing mechanism? Why are you positing such expansion as part of its operation? Couldn't the results be gained a diff. way?
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 04-06-2001 11:33 PM
I love the new instruments of this age. One of these would have to be the new musical instruments, synthesizers. I have two of them. Digital and programmable. They store little sample of waves from different instruments recorded and digitized. I wonder sometimes if I'll have time to use them that much anymore. All these samples of waves from different instruments all stored digitally, kept by battery, and able to play a wide variety of different wave forms. Some musicians would say that there is silence between the notes. Actually when learning a new piece, one hits a lot of wrong notes. Sometimes, this is the way that a new piece is created. If one hits enough wrong notes trying to learn a piece, whatever is left that seems improbable actually turns out to be a new piece. The interference wave pattern out of the stereo with a correct stereo image then allows one to imagine a new piece. All those wave harmonics add up to a pleasing form, unless one hits a lot of dissonant waves.
Well, I guess I am dreaming.
I wonder after looking at those pictures again, if John's time machine actually weighed 500lbs.
I see that he got on the Internet to England, still I wonder about that machine he claims to be a time machine.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 04-07-2001 02:35 PM
I am not liking what I am finding out here at the moment!
Gees, I found a couple of sites about some type of mathematics about wavelets that is only 10 years old, so not that many books have been written about it.
One is a non-technical explanation of whatever they are talking about, that is:
The other site is more math than I can remember and is almost about the same thing:
Fourier Transformations Calculus type stuff:
To much for me, but applications of this type math may have real concern here, well at least for me, until I lool at it better.
It is mentioned that this has application in engineering and physics, I think the one site, 2nd, is written by a physicist.
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 04-07-2001 02:46 PM
I'm aware that “BHSCP” isn't completely accurate...that's why I qualified the answer, "...gravitational intensity decreases as the function of the inverse square of the distance" with the reference to classical (Newtonian) physics. I assumed that the reader would know that classical physics has its shortcomings.
The importance of the Rs…
I didn’t choose the scenario here. Boomer did so…and he chose to put it in terms of Tipler-based time travel. By choosing that scenario he made the Schwarzschild Radius rather important, didn’t he? “Spinning and skimming” (the event horizon) is the name of the game in Tipler time travel. As Boomer has described the event, the field expands out to him and pulls him in with a force of 2g. If it's Tipler based then he’s just outside the event horizon when he’s pulled in.
His device appears to be about one meter long, 25cm deep and 25cm high. Let’s assume that you’re right and the engineers manage to keep the event horizon contained inside the device (discounting that parts of the device would still fall inside the event horizon as it expands to the edges of the enclosure). Let’s say, therefore, that the Schwarzschild Radius is 12.5cm (I assume the field to be centered inside the enclosure). Boomer is seated in the driver’s seat. The device is in the back seat (as described by Pamela). The device is about one meter away from Boomer’s posterior and 1.25 meters away from his anterior (spine to belly-button <wink>. His back is about eight Schwarzschild Radii from the field and his front is about ten Radii away. The front bumper of the truck (about three meters away) would be 24 Radii from the field. This is far from “skimming” the event horizon. I can only conclude that for the effect to occur then the Rs has to expand out to Boomer and engulf the device as it does so.
I can imagine one scenario that might avoid this effect. If the field is initiated in the future and collapses into the past it would pull Boomer in first and then pull the device in last. In this case Boomer would leave without the device and, according to him, have a 2.5% chance that the device would never reach him again. That is not how he describes the event in any case.[Edited by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 04-07-2001 at 02:49 PM]
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 04-07-2001 02:51 PM
Well, I just do not know. I guess there is books written on this stuff, mainly by mathematicans.
Posted by Pamela Moore on 04-07-2001 04:00 PM
Don't forget to leave the rear door open to vent the x-rays,
Don't want it blowing a hole through it.
Posted by Emmett "Darby" Darbyshire on 04-07-2001 05:35 PM
ROFL - I forgot about the x-rays! Good thing Boomer really isn't in California. The DMV would fine him for excessive x-ray emmissions.
Imagine it - Time Traveler held in custody for EPA violation. Fails to return in a "timely" manner. Video at 11...
Have a good weekend, Pamela.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 04-08-2001 06:20 PM
Something just struck me. I was thinking about the "event horizon"... The Schwarzschild Radius.
I know that according to conventional theory, when matter falls into the event horizon, x-radiation is produced, and indeed some astrophyscists have located what they believe to be black holes which do this very thing.
What occured to me, was that this theory of using a "microsingularity" and by injecting electrons into the Schwarzschild Radius would indeed, produce a LOT of x-radiation.
Just for a comparison - of sorts, consider older televisions, built in the 1960s... they produced a vast amount of x-rays. The way this occurred was thus: a cathode ray tube (CRT - aka a picture tube) has several thousand volts of electricity applied to it on the anode lead. (That's the red lead that goes to the back of the TV picture tube for anyone digging in the back of one right now). That voltage was (in the old days) roughly from 28 kv to 38 kv. At 32-35 thousand volts (somewhere in there) the electrons inside leaving the cathode and striking the phosphor screen hit with such "force" that it liberated energy in the form of light from the phosphor. Further, x-rays were released as well. The other place inside the TV that X-rays were released was inside the "Diode" tube inside the high voltage power supply.
Either way it was produced, it was measureable. In recent years... since around the mid to late seventies, the voltages applied to the CRTs in TVs and computer monitors have been reduced to the 20 thousand volt level to prevent the production of dangerous x-rays.
What all this is getting at is that x-rays can be produced by essentially small voltages, but then, if you are talking about injecting electrons into the sphere of a black hole, then you can produce xrays in the same manner.
I still find it unbelievable that a "microsingularity" could exist. Here's why. By the very defination of a singularity, it is implied there is a HUGE mass, into which all matter near by is drawn. This massive weight continues to grow in mass and gravity, thereby pulling in yet more matter.
In other words, I can not fathom the existence of a "microsingulaity" - a black hole of finite mass and volume (the size of an electron) into which electrons can be "injected" to cause changes in spin, fields or whatever.
While the theory holds some water - I don't think it is enough to explain away something like tipler cylinders, what would have to be a severe gravitational mass in an enclosed container, nor the amount of x-radiation that would be produced.
Since at this point, we don't have enough knowledge of "physics" to state emphatically that they CAN NOT exist, I can only say that they probably do not exist. I've tried to convince a couple of physicists to join up here, and try to explain what they know - but, they aren't willing to do so. They don't have the time, energy or inclination to do so I guess. I'll keep trying.
Posted by Kevin Spooner on 04-09-2001 02:44 AM
If at the end of this thread our presumption is that the only way of time travelling is to produce "waves of energy that transport back or forward in time" then we may have gained very little.
I feel that we have yet to isolate what 'waves' of what 'energy' is truly required as it would need to be able to negate linear time somewhat like an accelerating rocket is used to negate gravity.
It seems to me as a basic principle that to counteract one agent (e.g. time, gravity) you must replace it with an equal or greater counteragent (e.g. rocket fuel/engine).
So what is the counteragent here and what mechanism would drive it?
Kevin = Time Travel 101: Basic fundamentals. Free to a good home.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 04-09-2001 02:31 PM
There's a lot of hyperlinks in the Titor's Prediction thread. Look at it this way, if you can not build a time machine using "particles" can you use a field that it creates to create waves of interference to move through time. This wave stuff is more akin to the electro-magnetic radiation. It is a way that is being discussed as taking over the 'particles' that physicists use now. Take that a 'particle' is only a one short instance of what really is going on, that the 'particles' are not really particles except when we freeze them in a moment of time by camera and fast shutter speeds, when you look at the overall theory, there are therotical physicists saying that the other physicists are not taking into account the 'totality' of what is going on. That all supposed 'particles' in the bigger whole are actually 'waves' of electro-magnetic radiation. This phsyicist, David Bohm, is a protege of Einstein. And according to all accounts of the way we see, the way the brain works, the way everthing seems to work, is more akin (to explain consciousness and everything) to 'waves'. This is explained in the book "The Holographic Universe". Now this theory is not complete, and may change, but physicists are acuseing other physicists of creating particles because they can not see below the Planck's Constant which is where theory is at now. To build an Particle Accelerator to actually see a 'quark' or smaller whatevers it would take all the monies of all the tresuries of all countries and would have to be so big as to build it out in space, or else to confirm anything they have to wait for a space event to prove anything. Remember, below the electron, nothing is seen, it is just theory. The Planck's Constant is something like 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000001 or 10 to the -39 power. Humans have nothing that can get below that limit. So for a number of years it has been all theory and not much can be proved, including even Superstring Theory. It is all guessing at this point. This new Holographic Theory explains more of everything like the real world, and particles have nothing to do with it, just 'waves' of energy, which is really what Einstein's formula is really about. So if they can not see below the 'limit' then who of the scientists are really 'proving anything'.
Look at the other topic thread for hyperlinks to websites that explain some of the 'new' things (theories) starting to emerge. Particle Physics can not explain consciousness. Therefore, some scientists refute what they are doing.
Posted by Albert Cattoir on 04-09-2001 02:59 PM
Now imagine that there are no 'particles' that what we preceive as 'particles' but are actually 'forces' coming together and splitting apart continually, depending how anything interacts with the 'forces'. Now imagine that John's TT machine is using 'forces' to change temporal displacement or waves to create a interferrence pattern that develops into a type wormhole thing that allows him to move through some type of 'temporal displacement' time.
This would use different type of formulas and different thinking from 'particle theory' to an extent, if would be a combination of 'forces' to produce the required result.
Look in the other thread to read at some hyperlinks about different things.
Not that I believe that we can do this anytime some, but 30 years in the future, I do not know. (?)
Posted by Robert Roberts on 04-09-2001 07:10 PM
We are here. The technology used is simple to the point of being mundane. I can tell you know more of how it works or what is to come. Just know we are here.
Posted by Robert Roberts on 04-09-2001 07:13 PM
Forgive my error. I am weak. Should have read, "I can tell you no more of what is to come." Again, forgive the error.
Posted by Rick Donaldson on 04-10-2001 06:54 AM
So, Robert, you're telling us you are yet another time traveler?
Posted by Pamela Moore on 04-10-2001 07:13 AM
How hard would it be to not be prepared for a time you entered like John said he was not prepared for 2000?
you might be surprised.
I had this dream while John was here. I am only sharing it in parts because the dream made me realize it wouldnt really be that easy at all.
Me and a friend of mine got dropped off in the middle of my city back in time. We had to ask what year it was and not only the date which people looked at us very strange.
then it dawned on me we could have looked on the newspaper at the newspaper stand!
We had no idea how long we were going to be there.
My friend pulled out money and said "I have 100 dollars!."
I was happy until I saw 70 percent of it was the new money with the big heads. I said "Great, we cant use that here! it looks like fake money to the people of this time."
I examined the money.. all of it had dates on it after the time we were in except one 10 dollar bill. "we got 10 dollars."
I said. Then it dawned on me most clerks wouldnt look at the date of the bill and we could probably pass off the older looking money to eat with but the newer money would never work.
I was surprised at how very little I remembered about this time period and was looking at the clothing people were wearing as we passed them on the street.
I told my friend I couldnt really think of anything that happened during this time because I was too young. My friend couldnt even remember who the president was!
Then I was thinking while we were here I wanted to see myself.
We went to my parents house. I saw myself in the backyard I was only about 7 or so. I was reading a book. I wanted to see what would happen if I touched myself and I remembered in my dream John saying nothing happens.I wanted to see for myself. I approached myself calling out my name and extending my hand out introducing myself as her mothers friend. she took my hand and I shook it and held on for a second at the wonder of it all.I wasnt sure this was actually me.. I looked different from what I remembered but she responded to my name and it was my parents house. nothing happened... I was relieved."what are you reading?" I asked her. "science" she said. I looked at my friend and laughed."its me."
My other self looked so different than what I thought I remembered looking like. I tried not to stare at her.
Off hand I couldnt think of anything to tell her she was too young. I thought about all of the things in my life but would telling her make any difference? It was weird seeing another part of yourself. you kindof had compassion for it and cared for it. It was like seeing a little sister or something and not your real self. I decided to say nothing because she seemed happy.
And I was still shocked at just looking at her and thinking that it was a younger me. Did I behave this way? was I like this? I couldnt remember.
My friend decided they wanted to see their younger self also so we decided to take a bus.
I kept telling my friend we need to come up with a prediction or something so people would beleive us. But we both had lack of info. I thought about John in my dream and told my friend " Now I know how John felt! people were asking him who won the next hockey game and you can't even remember who the president was!" and we laughed.
We were thinking about how to convince my friends parents of who we were. and if they would beleive us or not.and what were we going to do if they didnt beleive us.
Since I pondered the thought that I looked a little different in this time I also pondered wether anything I told people would actually come true or not. I had no idea how far off this world was from my own. the world seemed slightly different. and I remembered a major event was more likely to happen than a trivial event... like ballgames won or lost.
We took the long bus ride to my friends house and started talking to the people on the bus who questioned our clothing. We finally ended up telling the people about Mad Cow disease since I studied alot about it after John had told me and I knew quite a bit to tell them.
One influential person said she would write her congressman right away and have it investigated.
My friend looked at me with a worried look and I told the lady "Good!" because I was at a loss for words."Maybe it won't be in the U.S then in the future,"
When we got to my friends house I was wondering if the father had a computer.. I paused and looked at my friend. "the internet existed during this time....right?"
I was thinking of all the wonderful inventions that I could tell my friends parents would come in the near future. then I stopped myself wondering how or if it would effect the worldline.
then I woke up! But the dream made me realize how difficult it would really be if you were a real time traveler and you were not prepared for the time you were in.
Olav Phillips is Conspiracy Researcher, specializing in the Secret Space Program, Exotic Aircraft, High Technology, Foreign Policy, Pre-History and Mysterious Civilizations. He is a regular contributor to Paranoia Magazine and ConspiracyHQ. He has also written for Mysteries Magazine and served as Executive Producer and Principle Researcher for Ground Zero Radio with Clyde Lewis (Nationally Syndicated by Premiere Radio Networks). Olav has also appeared on many popular radio shows as well as television presentations including: The Outer Edge, The Higher Side Chats, ConspiracyHQ TV, Shadows In the Dark Radio, Coast to Coast AM, Voyager (RAI Due), as well as being a long time contributor to Ground Zero Radio’s investigations including the famous Tracy, CA UFO Crash case featured on UFO Hunters. Olav has also contributed to many of the television presentations you’ve seen on Area 51, UFO’s and conspiracies. Olav is the owner of The Anomalies Channel, a online video channel with over 26,000 subscribers and hundreds of videos available to ROKU players all over the world as well as The Anomalies Network which is the primary source for his writings and research.
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